Newbie 1117(Town Wins)

[ToastyToast]

@bvoigt: I find you to be guilty of a lot of the things I was called out for. For example, you spend a lot of time asking questions without giving your own opinions. Other than the occasional BBmolla discussion or the "TT is scum" comments, I really have no idea what your stance on people is and why. In other words, you seem to just be drifting through the game rather than actively hunting (letting other people do the work for you, never being the primary aggressor).

[bvoigt]

@bvoigt: I find you to be guilty of a lot of the things I was called out for. For example, you spend a lot of time asking questions without giving your own opinions. Other than the occasional BBmolla discussion or the "TT is scum" comments, I really have no idea what your stance on people is and why. In other words, you seem to just be drifting through the game rather than actively hunting (letting other people do the work for you, never being the primary aggressor).

I think I've given my opinions on just about everyone. BBmolla is my strongest scum read, and I've been trying to get him lynched. After BB come you and Voidedmafia. For much of the game, I've had a scumread on you, and have been mostly null on Voided. However, Voided looks scummier than he did after the point you made here. And I mentioned townreads on the other 3 players here.

[verydark]

@voided

never mind that what he did try to contribute was scummy.

Actually, I just ISO Kad's post, and see nothing incredibly scummy. He tunnelled on BB much like I did, the only thing that was mildly scummy was his "Ya, so vote me" post, which I view as more anti-town newbie, than super scummy.

Remind me again, how was it random? It was abrupt, not random.

Maybe not as random as I thought, but it does demonstrate exactly what I said was a stupid idea, and that's to lynch someone based on their lack of contribution, as voided put it...

Kad...not so much. He's not even trying anymore, and that's something we don't need -_-.

Unvote, Vote: Kad

. Hammertime.

Kad, on the other hand, is much better off dead than alive, so it works out in my mind. Sadly, he doesn't give a whole lot of info with his death, but he definitely was gearing himself to be way more useless alive, much more than BB.

To me, the worst case scenario is that Kad would've eventually been replaced. I'd be more comfortable waiting on a new player who might actually contribute, than just killing off a lurker, when the wagon was pretty much headed for BB, even voided was suspicious of BB until he got hammer happy.

Voided just made a little slip up on the last page about "not knowing who he replaced" in post #388, that toasty already pointed out was pretty bogus in #389. I don't want that glossed over, because that seems like a distancing tactic to me. Still watching him closely, but after reading his and Muffins posts, I don't think his hammer vote was as "random" or scum motivated, but more impatient. Because Muffin was clearly leaning towards voting Kad anyway.

Right now, I'm really leaning towards Muffin/BBmolla as the scum team, as Muffin actively defended BB several times, and then there's this whole cryptic post between the 2 of them...

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

[Voidedmafia]

@voided

never mind that what he did try to contribute was scummy.

Actually, I just ISO Kad's post, and see nothing incredibly scummy. He tunnelled on BB much like I did, the only thing that was mildly scummy was his "Ya, so vote me" post, which I view as more anti-town newbie, than super scummy.

I never said they were super scummy, either. Just scummy.

Remind me again, how was it random? It was abrupt, not random.

Maybe not as random as I thought, but it does demonstrate exactly what I said was a stupid idea, and that's to lynch someone based on their lack of contribution, as voided put it...

Kad...not so much. He's not even trying anymore, and that's something we don't need -_-.

Unvote, Vote: Kad

. Hammertime.

Lynch him now to get a weak link out, or leave him alive and give scum a scapegoat later on? Yeah, I thought the former as well.

Kad, on the other hand, is much better off dead than alive, so it works out in my mind. Sadly, he doesn't give a whole lot of info with his death, but he definitely was gearing himself to be way more useless alive, much more than BB.

To me, the worst case scenario is that Kad would've eventually been replaced. I'd be more comfortable waiting on a new player who might actually contribute, than just killing off a lurker, when the wagon was pretty much headed for BB, even voided was suspicious of BB until he got hammer happy.

Pretty sure both wagons had equal heading, and it was tipping toward Kad getting the hammer by Muffin.

Voided just made a little slip up on the last page about "not knowing who he replaced" in post #388, that toasty already pointed out was pretty bogus in #389. I don't want that glossed over, because that seems like a distancing tactic to me. Still watching him closely, but after reading his and Muffins posts, I don't think his hammer vote was as "random" or scum motivated, but more impatient. Because Muffin was clearly leaning towards voting Kad anyway.

Again, I ask: How is "I didn't bother to look up anything other than my role" that hard to understand?

Also, I'm worried that I'm the only one who is noticing the obvious reason that BB is town. And it's a very, very obvious reason at that. Although possibly a gambit, it's much more likely to come from bb-town than bb-scum... Yet people aren't even commenting on it, let alone making references to it. Weird. And yes, I know I'm being somewhat subtle here, but if you know what I'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about, and if you don't, then you don't need to know.

...Honestly haven't the faintest clue what you're talking about, but I'm assuming it's not something good and not something I did on purpose.

likewise.

though, you left this quote unreplied to, dark. Hit Post too soon?

[/quote]

@bvoigt: I find you to be guilty of a lot of the things I was called out for. For example, you spend a lot of time asking questions without giving your own opinions. Other than the occasional BBmolla discussion or the "TT is scum" comments, I really have no idea what your stance on people is and why. In other words, you seem to just be drifting through the game rather than actively hunting (letting other people do the work for you, never being the primary aggressor).

I think I've given my opinions on just about everyone. BBmolla is my strongest scum read, and I've been trying to get him lynched. After BB come you and Voidedmafia. For much of the game, I've had a scumread on you, and have been mostly null on Voided. However, Voided looks scummier than he did after the point you made here. And I mentioned townreads on the other 3 players here.

You really don't think I could've just walked into this game without knowing anything but my role? It was a stupid move on my part, but that's what happened.

[verydark]

I deliberately left that last quote hanging. Since I am still sticking with BBmolla as my primary scum read, it's super suspicious when someone

A) Defends them several times
B) Leaves a cryptic post directed at the person with no explanation

I might just be misunderstanding Muffins cryptic post, but I don't like it.

Voided, you're on my null list, but not my town list.

Also, the fact that BB claimed VT is really not setting well with me, statistically the chances of 3 out of 9 roles being revealed to be the same is definitely in the less likely to happen than more likely category.

[bvoigt]

You really don't think I could've just walked into this game without knowing anything but my role? It was a stupid move on my part, but that's what happened.

I don't see why not.

[BBmolla]

I deliberately left that last quote hanging. Since I am still sticking with BBmolla as my primary scum read, it's super suspicious when someone

A) Defends them several times
B) Leaves a cryptic post directed at the person with no explanation

I might just be misunderstanding Muffins cryptic post, but I don't like it.

I'm assuming he was referring to my soft claims, meaning he was assuming I was a PR. We went over this when I claimed VT.

Also, the fact that BB claimed VT is really not setting well with me, statistically the chances of 3 out of 9 roles being revealed to be the same is definitely in the less likely to happen than more likely category.
I'm no major in statistics, but the town is comprised of either 55% or 66% of VTs. It's really not that surprising.

Also, I think Voided is being truthful. Redcobalt wasn't the best player, he could have still looked scummy while being town, it's absolutely plausible especially with better players around. Who seems scummy all depends who can towntell best, which is why I've got all this FoS despite being a townie.

[ToastyToast]

@voided: I think we've gone past the point, but its very scummy. Again, its hard to believe you because you yourself said that you knew who you were replacing, and thought they were scummy.

[Voidedmafia]

Never said or implied that until my 3rd post in this thread, and at that point I had realized I replaced redcobalt. Both posts before it did not have that knowledge behind them. Now that I DO know who I was replacing, my views on Red haven't changed.

...This is really starting to get confusing...

[SomeRandomGuy]

Whether voided knew when he first replaced who he was replacing or not is pretty irrelevent, either way we have a case of that he thought his read scummy. If scum it creates nice distance, essentially it's like bussing your scum partner, except here no one dies.

The issue is of course that if done on purpose and he did know it did create that space - it looks very honest to give a scum read on the person you replaced, 'I would have voted for him if he wasn't the one i replaced' automatically makes us feel that he's working with us, as opposed to against.

I was thinking this over myself, 'what would I do if i replaced in?' I think i'd be tempted to read the game which voided must have done to be able to post reads in his first post and doing so would reveal who he replaced. However in ISO i realise that Voided's second post mentioned it was up until page 7 - #359 was the mods post saying redcobalt was being replaced obviously far further through the game.

I think indications in what voided has posted does seem to point out that he was reading the game in chunks, rather than doing one big read through and that his first few posts are reads as he does that. Firstly he notes it was Page 5 he was up to then Page 7.

He had around 30 minutes to read the rest of the thread between being at Page 7 and responding to the question about having a scum read on the spot he filled - I mean, everything here DOES add up with his story - that he read chunks of the game and continued onward giving reads along the way, however - 'RedCobalt is being replaced' was just 2 - 3 posts above the one where voided shows his reads, certainly he noticed it by then?

[ToastyToast]

Mhm. so you didn't know who you replaced, acknowledged how scummy your replacement was. Then, you realized you replace him

As for the last part, are you sure you're talking about me? Because Ive never said "I'd vote me" this game. At all. Where the hell did you get that from?

Aannnddd then you forgot again.
I think voided just got flustered and lied in order to cover up some other mistakes. I know how confusing this is, but it doesn't sit right with me AT ALL. Its a big mistake for town, and even a bigger mistake if scum. Not knowing who you replaced is already bad. But then calling yourself scummy unintentionally? Then, you deny that you said anything about suspect yourself at all, even tho you acknowledge who you replaced and find them scummy.

I need to go with my best judgement, and I such I

Vote:Voidedmafia

His response to this suspicion of mine has just made him scummier, and he's still very concerned with what other people think of him.

Oi, I feel like we're going in circles.

[Voidedmafia]

I didn't let the page automatically redirect me to my post and simply backed up to the last page I was on. So, when I did notice, I was back to my first post in the thread and was essentially caught up. Why did I do it like this? Well, at the time, I didn't want my opinions of the thread to be soured by anything that happened afterwards, so I could be as honest as possible.

Toasty:...You completely missed where I realized my mistake. You do know that, right? it's, like, the post right under that.

next, I never directly called MYSELF scummy, that much is true. I've only said Redcobalt was scummy, and that I was scummy by association because I replaced into his slot. Unless you can point out where, that point is nulled.

Also, if I appear to be "concerned with how I look", that's because this subject line (and related topics) invariably (spelling?) leads to trying to look the best you can. Kinda hard not to.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Toasty, if it were me in Voided shoes i'd also catagorically reject the claim that I had said 'I'd vote me' - He was saying he would vote his own slot, that he'd vote the person before him based on the way they acted - not that he'd vote themselves.

The key thing here is to remember that Voided and Red are different people, whilst fulfilling the same slot they're not suddenly merged into some Redvoid_mafia. I agree that his giving a scum read could be to create distance but right now, you're doing exactly the opposite.

For this case to work and be solid i believe we'd need the following:

Something to prove that when he made the posts regarding suspecting the old player that he knew who he was replacing and is lying about it. I've looked through his ISO and aside from the fact he may well have seen the post by shotty regarding the replacement there's nothing to indicate that he did indeed know.

Voided distanced himself from his old player completely, choosing completely the opposite tactic to Muffin who didn't mention them.

I don't know what to think, Red wasn't exactly massively scummy from my reading of the game, I don't understand why Voided-scum would feel the need to distance the way he did - I mean assuming for a moment that he IS scum and that he obviously knew red was, red had done little enough in gaining suspicion that it's nothing voided needed to defend himself from.

Still though, that's not to say that voided couldn't be scum, simply that this case isn't exactly hole-proof and i'd need something to prove what you're saying or to hint at the motivation voided would have had as mafia to make the red scum read posts.

[zMuffinMan]

...as for Haze, I did re-read all his posts to see what may have caused his demise, but turned up empty handed. He had a minor argument against BB, but then jumped on the wagon with the Kad votes.

I'd say this is a case of Haze dying because he was unlynchable more than anything else. Pretty much no one thought he was scum.

I'm not really a fan of NK WIFOM, though, unless I already have a suspect and NK WIFOM fits my line of thinking.

IMO, it's best not to look for suspects based purely on who was NKed.

--

Will people please stop misrepping the fact that I STARTED THE KAD WAGON BUT SHOTTY MISSED MY VOTE.
Your operating on the idea that my vote was scummy due to the timing and yet I was the first person to vote him.

heh, I forgot about that. I think I said the same thing at the end of yesterday, too. Like I said, I need to go back and look at the posts near the end of yesterday and do some ISOs.

I'll revise my VCA accordingly after reading, but the general assumptions I made (e.g. if BB is town, 1-1 split on both L-1 wagons) are still valid, I think.

On a side note, I skipped over this earlier, but...

How can you claim to find your replacee scummy, then claim that you at the time had no idea who you were replacing?

This makes me think Voided is more likely town. Although my reasoning is kind of weak here, but things like that look like unintentional town slips to me.

For example, if Voided is mafia, first thing I think he'd do is check his QT, and I am pretty damn sure he'd know who he was replacing.

--

@verydark, Voided,

Wait, you think I'm scummy for being cryptic about what I thought was a PR softclaim?

You think I should have come right out and said "I think BB is a PR"? That would have been the pro-town thing to do?

Also, the fact that BB claimed VT is really not setting well with me, statistically the chances of 3 out of 9 roles being revealed to be the same is definitely in the less likely to happen than more likely category.

No, not really, there's up to 6 VTs in this game, so 2 flips and another claim doesn't make the third claim more likely to be scum... It could also just be a case of PR/s playing well and thus have avoided having to claim/getting NKed.

--

Anyway, will be getting around to reading after work hours today. This was just a (relatively) quick post in the mean time.

[ToastyToast]

I know my argument isn't full of holes. But you have to remember that
1) I was Redcolbalt's main aggressor and as such why he said "I'd vote redcolbalt" without much explanation I assumed he was trying to distance himself from a scummy slot
2) Voidedmafia's slot wasn't crystal-clear even when disregarding who he replaced. I can make a case, but I really need to get off mafia atm. Not to mention that my two major problems with voided have already been discussed. Feel like those two points are the main things I can contribute--I don't want to be the only one WITH a case and there needs to be some more original thought on the views of the slot.
3) Voidedmafia and bv make a lot of sense as a scum team
4) We have different PoV. I have from D1 been looking at his slot, for example. I see scum who has sort of tripped over himself based on a small detail. In all reality, voidedmafia could have made an honest mistake. He nonetheless strongly agreed with my case. I'm really having a hard time explaining this...voidedmafia lied, buddied, distanced, and forced a circular argument. All of these things I consider to be scummy.

[verydark]

Am I the only one who remembers that BBmolla was JUST as close to being lynched as Kad?

He's done nothing to clear his name, and as I said, my vote stays here until I'm satisfied otherwise. Claiming VT is a safe bet, because nobody will CC. Ever since I've joined this game he has seemed scummy to me, and I'm going to go with my instinct. That said, I do enjoy a game with good sportsmanship, so I will say that I do appreciate your contributions so far, BBmolla. I'm just not buying it.

VOTE: BBmolla

And I really would like everyone's opinion of Muffin defending BB, which seems convenient that he didn't have to cast the hammer vote on him after all, so there's always the possibility that it's Voided/BBmolla.

In post #179, Muffin says this about BB

I'd put my vote on BB, no questions asked. It's called compromise. It's a good thing.

But then changed his tone once people started targeting him as scum, beginning in post 194

On another note, BB is reading as town. Newbie-town, but still town. Although I would like to see him stop caring about himself and start focusing on finding scum. I personally don't care what "defense" he has to offer in his next post, I'd rather see him start hunting scum properly.

Post 292

but I still think BB is more likely town than scum

And then, the icing on the cake, which essentially summarizes what I'm thinking...

Post 323

...the reason I thought BBmolla was softclaiming a PR is because he said he had something to say but couldn't say it without outing his role, which to me suggests soft-claiming a PR. But when he actually claimed VT, he said something along the lines of "my defense was just going to be lynch me" or something to that effect, which made me look back and realise I probably did misinterpret the softclaiming. But I also think he's town independent of that.

I'd say this isn't two townies up for a lynch.

It's really rare to get 2 players at L-1 D1 in a newbie and have them both be town

. That said, if we lynch a townie today, I'm not going to automatically assume the other player is scum.

So, Muffin, do you think since Kad flipped town, BB is scum? I certainly do, and currently, I think you're his partner.

[zMuffinMan]

No.

I think I've been quite clear in what I think.

Also that part about my #179 is pretty funny. I actually had to go back and check what I said in #179, because I didn't remember saying that, and surprise, surprise, you took it out of context. Are you intentionally trying to misrep me here?

[Voidedmafia]

@verydark, Voided,

Wait, you think I'm scummy for being cryptic about what I thought was a PR softclaim?

You think I should have come right out and said "I think BB is a PR"? That would have been the pro-town thing to do?

No. I'm confused as hell by what you're trying to say.

1) I was Redcolbalt's main aggressor and as such why he said "I'd vote redcolbalt" without much explanation I assumed he was trying to distance himself from a scummy slot

Why would saying that without explanation be distancing? I'd think trying to take every instance to say "Btw, I think RC is scum and I'd vote him" would be distancing.

Though, I basically agreed with your case and didn't see how I could build upon it. Sheeping, I guess?

2) Voidedmafia's slot wasn't crystal-clear even when disregarding who he replaced. I can make a case, but I really need to get off mafia atm.

should I assume these two points are together, and the latter sentence should have quotes or something around it?

Feel like those two points are the main things I can contribute--I don't want to be the only one WITH a case and there needs to be some more original thought on the views of the slot.

bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

3) Voidedmafia and bv make a lot of sense as a scum team

How so?

I see scum who has sort of tripped over himself based on a small detail.

How?

In all reality, voidedmafia could have made an honest mistake. He nonetheless strongly agreed with my case.

So? I can't agree that a case on me (or my predecessor, in this case) is a valid one?

voidedmafia lied

Where?

buddied

Where and how?

and forced a circular argument.

lolwut? When the hell did I force anything?


Regarding #179, I went back and looked, too, and I agree with Muffin: Verydark is misrepping pretty badly right there.

[zMuffinMan]

I may have misread #403, but it looked like you were agreeing with verydark about what he said in regards to the exchange he quoted between BB and I.

verydark was suggesting there was some sort of connection between BB and I based on that exchange, and you said "likewise". Though, looking back, that may have been you saying "likewise" about what BB said and not about what verydark said.

[Voidedmafia]

Verydark didn't say anything since he left it hanging. Therefore I was agreeing with BB.

[ToastyToast]

bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

But only SRG has explained any "WHY" that is different from my own reasons.
Mafia is a group effort, and just latching onto someone else's argument isn't great regardless of allignment
bv calling you leaning scum makes you 2 as scum together even more likely. He defended RedColbalt and went on a counter-attack after my case, which effectively drew the attention on colbalt to myself.
He later asks redcolbalt to post more (a light jab). After your arrival, he pretty much ignores you unless he agrees with you. Then, after he mentions what you did with the "i'd vote me" thing is scummy, but quickly backs of with your explanation (which leaves a lot unanswered and we have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth). So thats blind acceptance, light defending, and light distancing.

You buddied with me
You distanced with yourself AND bv (the latter only has relevance if we get a scum flip)
You contradicted yourself about what you did/didn't know at the time of saying "Colbalt is scummy." If you truly became aware, then you would have explained what happened earlier, and not with a one liner that says "well, i'd still vote me if I didn't find out that I replaced redcolbalt." You also lied when you said "where did I say I would vote myself?" when it was pretty obvious what I meant.
We are in a circular argument. Its been a constant "why did you say this" + "I didn't know who I was!" + "You said right here that you did know" + "well, I didn't know at the time!" and on and on and on.

[Voidedmafia]

bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

But only SRG has explained any "WHY" that is different from my own reasons.

Okay, I'll give you that.

Mafia is a group effort, and just latching onto someone else's argument isn't great regardless of allignment.

But if someone explains something that is in near-complete alignment with what you think, what's wrong with agreeing with them? Case in point: Me agreeing with SRG about Verydark's 350.

It's not really relating to your case on Red, but it was the best argument presented at page 4 of the game, and I believe it had enough merit to it to say that I would have backed it at that point regardless of who I replaced.

I think you're also forgetting that the case was a page 4, way past when I replaced in. It's not like I can do anything more than say "I agree with this case" or "I disagree with this case".

You buddied with me

And I shall NEVER EVER agree with you again! [/sarcasm]

Really, Toasty? REALLY?

You distanced with yourself AND bv (the latter only has relevance if we get a scum flip)

loldistancingmyself.

Also, where did I distance with bv?

You contradicted yourself about what you did/didn't know at the time of saying "Colbalt is scummy."

No I didn't.

If you truly became aware, then you would have explained what happened earlier, and not with a one liner that says "well, i'd still vote me if I didn't find out that I replaced redcolbalt."

You didn't ask. Why are you complaining about me not explaining it then when you (or anyone else) didn't bother to ask for further elaboration at the time?

You also lied when you said "where did I say I would vote myself?" when it was pretty obvious what I meant.

No it wasn't. "I'd vote me" is different from "I'd vote redCobalt".

We are in a circular argument. Its been a constant "why did you say this" + "I didn't know who I was!" + "You said right here that you did know" + "well, I didn't know at the time!" and on and on and on.

I never forced it, though. You're the one asking the circular questions -_-.

[ToastyToast]

I have a problem with sheeping. "I agree with this case" should be changed to "this is why I agree with this case. I also found this.."
You never really talked about bv and said you had "absolutely no opinion on him"

Fine. you didn't force it, but I didn't either. Its just getting nowhere, and its frustrating because I find what you did to be incredibly scummy, even after your explanations--even if I were to accept everything you've said as true.

I didn't think anything of it at the time. In fact, I too had no idea who you had replaced and had to make sure it was redcolbalt. so when I re-examined, I saw that and was liek "LOLWUT"

[bvoigt]

bv says I'm null leaning scum, basically
SRG finds me null.
You find me scummy
I think verydark finds me scummy.
Based on BB's recent post, I'd say he thinks I'm town.

But only SRG has explained any "WHY" that is different from my own reasons.
Mafia is a group effort, and just latching onto someone else's argument isn't great regardless of allignment
bv calling you leaning scum makes you 2 as scum together even more likely. He defended RedColbalt and went on a counter-attack after my case, which effectively drew the attention on colbalt to myself.

1

He later asks redcolbalt to post more (a light jab).

2

After your arrival, he pretty much ignores you unless he agrees with you.

3

Then, after he mentions what you did with the "i'd vote me" thing is scummy, but quickly backs of with your explanation (which leaves a lot unanswered and we have no way of knowing if you are telling the truth).

4

So thats blind acceptance, light defending, and light distancing.

You buddied with me

5

You distanced with yourself AND bv (the latter only has relevance if we get a scum flip)

6

You contradicted yourself about what you did/didn't know at the time of saying "Colbalt is scummy." If you truly became aware, then you would have explained what happened earlier, and not with a one liner that says "well, i'd still vote me if I didn't find out that I replaced redcolbalt." You also lied when you said "where did I say I would vote myself?" when it was pretty obvious what I meant.
We are in a circular argument. Its been a constant "why did you say this" + "I didn't know who I was!" + "You said right here that you did know" + "well, I didn't know at the time!" and on and on and on.

I really don't like the angle that many of these attacks are coming from. You're taking things that could be either town-motivated or scum-motivated and twisting them by only looking at the scum perspective.

1. I simply didn't find your case on Red to be all that great.
2. For one thing, I never called Red scummy because of his lack of content. And asking for content is simply the pro-town thing to do.
3. What of it? Some players just don't have as much to comment on as others-- for example, other than asking him about possible rolefishing, I didn't really question Haze a lot.
4. I haven't "backed off." I still agree with that particular point.
5. Or, to look at it from another perspective, he agreed with your case and mentioned a town read.
6. First of all, Voidedmafia only said he had a null read on me. Secondly, you could call just about any sort of case "distancing."

[Voidedmafia]

I have a problem with sheeping. "I agree with this case" should be changed to "this is why I agree with this case. I also found this.."
You never really talked about bv and said you had "absolutely no opinion on him"

Yes, because I wasn't focused on looking at him at the time. And I'm not now because I'm focusing more on you and this argument.

Fine. you didn't force it, but I didn't either. Its just getting nowhere, and its frustrating because I find what you did to be incredibly scummy, even after your explanations--even if I were to accept everything you've said as true.

Okay, let's go over this again.

I ask dry to replace in.
Dry gives me my role PM.
I check my role PM without bothering to check anything else, only confirming my role.
I start at the beginning and read through pages 1-4, currently unaware of who I replaced.
At the end of page 4, I post the first post I made in this thread, comment on SRG's stuff with BB and agreeing with your case on Red. Again, at this point I did not know I replaced RedCobalt. I also comment that I was posting just before I went to church.
I go to church, like I said in that post.
3 minutes after I post, Muffin notes that I just said that I'd vote RedCobalt (and therefore myself) if I replaced in.
I catch up to page 7 and post my reads then. I still don't know I replaced cobalt, also evidenced by how I talk as if he's still there.
I catch up to the rest of the thread, and notice who I replaced. Note that at any time before this, I did NOT know that I replaced cobalt.
I reply to muffin's question by basically saying "if I was replacing in at page 4, and I wasn't replacing in for Redcobalt, I would vote for him."
During this entire time until I had caught up, I never tried to look at the lastest page, and if I accidentally went there, I made sure to back out without looking at anything.

Now, what parts do you find scummy? What parts aren't? What parts do you believe/disbelieve? I'd also like everyone else to look and give their unique opinions as to what they find scummy/not scummy in this and how truthful/untruthful they think it is.

bv: to #5, exactly.
to #6, I agree

OMG WE'RE BUDDYING! *rolls eyes*