Mafia Invictus ~ Game Over!

[Zachrulez]

By my count we have something like an hour left to deadline. Who's on right now that can make a lynch happen?

[MagnaofIllusion]

By my count we have something like an hour left to deadline. Who's on right now that can make a lynch happen?

The Mod's count-down in the last post says deadline is at 9:00pm EST, so in about 7 hours.

[Zachrulez]

Oh, it counts down... that's... weird.

I actually counted down from where it was posted which is how I came up with what I got.

We're still cutting it a little bit close though.

[Tarhalindur]

Hey everyone, looks like I got to a comp just in time. Hmm...Let's look! Oooh, a post to tear apart! It makes me feel giddy in anticipation!

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

---

In fact, while I'm at it, let's go over some danceHello posts here, because I think I FINALLY found the best-fit solution to why dance was killed:

The only potential downside to the invictus voting plan involves mafia having the possiblity and opportunity to manipulate the votes during the day phase to prevent themselves from being incivitused however the votes will provide massive amounts of content and interactions to read back for later in the game.

Not understanding the BabySpice votes, sure she's a weaker player however she'll be relatively easy to read correctly later in the game removing any potential gain from invictusing her early, furthermore the placement and timing of her Tarh vote and avoidance of the Spyrex wagon reads as slightly town.

voteDuplicity

This wagon is go. Such a slimy input to the Invictus talk, mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict. Also the stance on Baby Spice is lulzy.

@Zach: being obtuse back at the stubborn doesn't mean you win. Everyone loses.

-inHim

Duplicity saw TOWNFATE doin' his thing, so he jumps on the Invictus vote bandwagon, but then some opponents (well not really lolz DGB) to the plan arise, he decides he better put some neutral thoughts on the subject.

QED scum.

-inHim

Dance, I made it abundantly obvious that I believe the perks greatly outwayed the minimal negatives which is incredibly obvious via the statement of

only

potentially downside.

Jesus fucking Christ. It took me five minutes to figure out what you were even saying. I can't tell if you're trying to look smart which is completely negated by saying 'outwayed', or if you're trying to deliberately obfuscate your posts with a lack of conciseness. Either way it's scummy. Additionally, your invictus vote is of no use on yourself, I urge you to do something productive with it immediately.

-PBuG

Self-explanatory I think.

Can we PLEASE lynch Duplicity now?

Oh boy, this'll be fun. Let's start with Dance.

Dance was voting on a misunderstanding that I later cleared up personally. You conveniently leave out the following posts from dance:

"I invictused voted myself." does not mean "I invictused myself". It means we voted for an invictus. If you had actually been paying attention you'd see that. The fact that you push on things that are either inaccurate or inconsequential makes it very difficult to read you.

My bad, I tend to misinterpret people when they don't use commas correctly~

That said, I really like that post of yours, but unless I get a better read off your other head or

my

other head sees fit to unvote, the vote stays.

-PBuG

May I suggest the great combo deal of lynching sil and invictusing one of Baby/Zach/Gut?

Unvote

You just proposed invictusing three of my top four scumreads (MoI being the other) so I can't possibly justify voting you. I'll elaborate on them tomorrow. I don't know how dedicated my other head was to our vote for you but he'll just have to deal.

- PBuG
P.S. inHim, DEALWITHIT

Dealt with.

-inHim

Dance, I have a tendancy to use larger words than needed in my posts and it becomes much more incoherent in the early hours of the morning so my apologies but in future I'll try to be much more concise. If I may ask what means of communication are you two attempting to use to discuss read differences because your disagreement in thread reads strongly as if you haven't stopped to have a conversation on MSN or in QT.

We're talking in QT, and we don't have differences in reads, I simply didn't like having our vote on you anymore and didn't want to wait for inHim's permission to take it off. loldealwithit.

- PBuG
P.S. *tendency

Here Dance says they no longer have differences in reads. "Didn't like having our vote on you anymore" is the key phrase here. Now Tar, please elaborate on why you decided to use as a case a misunderstanding that was obviously cleared up later.

It's important to note this was after the posts Tar quoted.

See, here's the thing. From what I can tell, dH didn't so much decide Duplicity wasn't scummy as decide there were better targets (in part due PBuG being less convinced of your scum nature), and then backed off.

In other words, dH had a GREAT catch (seriously, "mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict" is IIoA in a nutshell) but forgot about/got distracted by it. (Know that sort of thing all too well, it's what I did re: Quilford D2.)

But Duplicity *didn't* forget, so his group decided to kill dH for it (after all, nobody would actually go back and figure it out, right?). CLASSIC scum behavior that.

On to Tar's post by post.

Post 528 (bad Gamma argument, trying to divert me, parts re: danceHello), post 837 (scum reaction to Gamma/Fate, "town but" comments on Benmage, possible distancing from Nautilius), general continued attempts to portray Gamma as confirmed town with increasingly desperate reasoning as I demolished their argument (along with Benmage, which isn't surprising in the slightest given the rest of their interactions), generally on the same wavelength with Gamma/Benmage in a fashion that suggests out-of-game communication (a scum axis). That last one is the most damning (wake up and smell the scum axis!); it's also why I suspect Naut over VitR (Naut mindset fits scum axis, VitR doesn't).

Post 582 with the Gamma argument. Oh boy, time to argue this out again

Scenarios:

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have no doctor: Kill KK, get Gamma/Quil killed. It fails, Gamma is clear.

Gamma/Quil town, Scum have doctor: See above, Gamma/Quil is clear.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have no doctor: Gamma/Quil dies, this possibility has a chance of 0.

Gamma/Quil mafia, Scum have doctor: Gamma/Quil does not die, looks very odd to town that Gamma did not die. It will become obvious that Gamma was not saved by a town doctor unless Scum doc claims town doc. Linking 2 mafia as a permanent team is not a good idea, chance of occurrence is low.

So Duplicity's response to me pointing out his demolished argument... is to trot out the same dishonest argument?

In the first two cases, Gamma is not "clear" - he's simply not scum by the givens of the argument. To clear a player, you have to disprove all scum logic for killing them, and these two scenarios do nothing for that.

Third possibility has a fatal flaw, as I've pointed out multiple times: Bulletproof is an ability in the list of possible abilities (not even counting Tar over Mafia shenanigans). I'm not going to rule out bulletproof-Gamma unless I see a Scouter claim with results on Gamma from either a player I'm sure is town for other reasons or from a player who is confirmed town Scouter by flip (because a) it's not that hard a role to fake, and b) I fully expect that there is a scum Scouter in the game).

Fourth possibility has multiple fatal flaws, as pointed out earlier: there's no guarantee that players would notice or act on a mysterious missing Invictus if Quil died (especially given that this was after the D1 derphammer), and a missing Invictus could easily be explained away just by a "I guess I was protected". Besides, why on Earth would town-Duplicity conclude that scum *has* to claim Doctor with a N1 protect on Gamma? They could simply count on a missing N1 Quil invictus being ignored/explained away and bus him if necessary. Or Gamma could just claim a 1-shot bulletproof shield.

Asking you a legitimate question is not diverting you.

It is when it's phrased as "look at these players right now INSTEAD of the player you're looking at" - and that's the implicit phrasing I see in that request.

"Scum reaction to Gamma/Fate" Regfan stated that Gamma/Fate bickering was not helping town whatsoever and needed to end. Please elaborate on how this is a scumtell.

All in the tone (especially that little "this is just giving scum a place to hide" comment at the end).

As for the "town but" Regfan asked for Benmage to give his reads on the votes. We like elaboration, deal with it.

There's a difference between a player asking for elaboration from a player they think is town and a scumbag giving himself a way out of a town read (hint: it involves committing to the town read). 834 is the latter, not the former. And as inHim so nicely pointed out earlier, he's been doing this ALL GAME. Why is Dup-scum still alive?

The Nautilus distancing was Regfan promising to read into him for a better read, along with you. Are we distancing you too?

1) Not buying it. Not the right tone - note the "bring up the lack of read first and THEN mention my neutral read on Naut", which is not town wording (and IS IIoA wording)

2) No, because Duplicity was using the kind of rhetoric to attack me that scum use to attack townies (seriously, scum don't attack scum using dishonest "red flag" rhetoric). He ALSO doesn't have the balls to follow through - just like he doesn't have the balls to follow through with concluding that I am scum earlier in this post (since he's clearly arguing that I am arguing in a scum manner, but not following through on it).

As for wavelengths, getting that someone is more than likely clear is not something that requires very much thought. Especially when you don't think of a scumdoc interfering with things

Uh, no. That's not the point of the wavelength argument at all. The only way that the same wavelength applies to Gamma is how BOTH Duplicity and Ben keep using the same dishonest logic about Gamma being cleared AFTER I point out the holes in it.

No, the point of the wavelength argument is that if you go back and look over the whole thread, it becomes clear that Duplicity/Benmage/{Quil/Gamma} have been subtly linked to each other (similar thoughts on who's scum, similar arguments) AT LEAST since the early part of D2 (when I first began attacking Quilford). And I'll bet the only reason such behavior didn't come up D1 is because D1 was too short and Benmage/Duplicity too inactive for it to show up.

Tar: Do you acknowledge that if there is no scumdoc Gamma is clear? And that scumdoc saving the invictus is not something one is likely to come up with right away?

No, because the mere nonexistence of a scum doc is NOT ENOUGH to clear Gamma.

If there is no Mafia doc AND Gamma does not have any bulletproof shields (which, again, is only confirmable by a trustworthy Scouter) AND Tarhalindur over Mafia is confirmed either nonMafia or confirmed to have nothing to do with disrupting Invictus, THEN AND ONLY THEN Gamma is sufficiently confirmed town for me to back off completely. Until then, there are enough possible explanations for Mafia to kill KK despite his claimed Invictus target for me to not clear him for setup reasons - and his slot's play is certainly bad enough to warrant suspicion.

So, Duplicity, let's turn this around on you: What, if anything, do you see in Quil/Gamma's POSTS IN THE THREAD that indicate to you that he is town?

[VitaminR]

Oh I'm sorry I'm not really caring as Fate's been his abrasive regular self all game and the only peep you made is when Gamma 'claimed' he was going to replace.

How does this have anything to do with Fate?

If you think suspecting you and calling you scum is abrasive behavior then so be it. It's not changing.

Then we are done. I refuse to waste my time arguing with someone who's this thoroughly unpleasant to talk to. There's no point in explaining my actions to you, because you interpret EVERYTHING as scummy anyway, from the way I crop posts to accusing me of grandstanding and fake emotion (wtf?), and in the most odious and self-righteous way. It is a waste of my time, since you cannot evaluate anything I say objectively.

And I don't give a whit how you interpret this post. For your purposes, you can act as if all my posts just say "I'm scum." Then you can have your self-validating wankery all by yourself and I don't need to be involved in it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Then we are done. I refuse to waste my time arguing with someone who's this thoroughly unpleasant to talk to. There's no point in explaining my actions to you, because you interpret EVERYTHING as scummy anyway, from the way I crop posts to accusing me of grandstanding and fake emotion (wtf?), and in the most odious and self-righteous way. It is a waste of my time, since you cannot evaluate anything I say objectively.

So basically - you don't want to both to explain your motivations so you are taking your ball and going home. Nicely played ....

[Gammagooey]

This is me posting to say I'll be online for a while before deadline, although I will be gone for a maximum of 2 hours starting in a few minutes (leaving 3 hours to deadline once I'm back).
If Duplicity is at L-1 with Gut by the time I get back I'll consider hammering him and go over his+Gut's isos and all that jazz but right now I'd still rather see Gut dead and I'm not really expecting Duplicity to get into hammer range.

[Fate]

Tar make a concise post about Duplicit scum to convince all the lazy fucks

Ill be home soon

[Duplicity]

just a heads up, my primary shift key (har har) is broken meaning i'm not going to bother capitalizing except for punctuation, symbols, and when i pull a fate with my KAPS LAWK. deal with it.

anyway, i'm limited for time so i'll just go over a few things that catch my eye.

See, here's the thing. From what I can tell, dH didn't so much decide Duplicity wasn't scummy as decide there were better targets (in part due PBuG being less convinced of your scum nature), and then backed off.

In other words, dH had a GREAT catch (seriously, "mentions a negative and a positive but never a verdict" is IIoA in a nutshell) but forgot about/got distracted by it. (Know that sort of thing all too well, it's what I did re: Quilford D2.)

But Duplicity *didn't* forget, so his group decided to kill dH for it (after all, nobody would actually go back and figure it out, right?). CLASSIC scum behavior that.

HERE'S WHAT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED!

and "i cannot possibly justify voting you" means "i see no reason to have a serious fos on you at this point in time" second, we clearly gave a verdict but that's already been argued. we gave an invictus vote that very post.

So Duplicity's response to me pointing out his demolished argument... is to trot out the same dishonest argument?

In the first two cases, Gamma is not "clear" - he's simply not scum by the givens of the argument. To clear a player, you have to disprove all scum logic for killing them, and these two scenarios do nothing for that.

Third possibility has a fatal flaw, as I've pointed out multiple times: Bulletproof is an ability in the list of possible abilities (not even counting Tar over Mafia shenanigans). I'm not going to rule out bulletproof-Gamma unless I see a Scouter claim with results on Gamma from either a player I'm sure is town for other reasons or from a player who is confirmed town Scouter by flip (because a) it's not that hard a role to fake, and b) I fully expect that there is a scum Scouter in the game).

Fourth possibility has multiple fatal flaws, as pointed out earlier: there's no guarantee that players would notice or act on a mysterious missing Invictus if Quil died (especially given that this was after the D1 derphammer), and a missing Invictus could easily be explained away just by a "I guess I was protected". Besides, why on Earth would town-Duplicity conclude that scum *has* to claim Doctor with a N1 protect on Gamma? They could simply count on a missing N1 Quil invictus being ignored/explained away and bus him if necessary. Or Gamma could just claim a 1-shot bulletproof shield.

forgot about the bulletproof thing for a second, even then though, possibilities:

gamma is 1 hit BP scum, is essentially cleared by town initially as giving up your only bp ability so early in the game is suicide, but his presence will be questioned later in the game after protective roles are dead. if game makes it past a certain point he's nearly autolynched. bad idea.

gamma is multiple hit scum bp, defeats the entire purpose of the invictus. no point in this. while we're at it though we can speculate the setup some more: bp has a good chance of being made for the survivor, not for scum.

and as for the scum doc claiming town doc thing, sooner or later it will be asked who saved quil. either quil claims bp with nothing and scouter catches him, or scum doc claims to have saved him, linking the two together for the rest of the game. bad idea. anyway, done with this argument now.

Asking you a legitimate question is not diverting you.

It is when it's phrased as "look at these players right now INSTEAD of the player you're looking at" - and that's the implicit phrasing I see in that request.

"Scum reaction to Gamma/Fate" Regfan stated that Gamma/Fate bickering was not helping town whatsoever and needed to end. Please elaborate on how this is a scumtell.

All in the tone (especially that little "this is just giving scum a place to hide" comment at the end).

As for the "town but" Regfan asked for Benmage to give his reads on the votes. We like elaboration, deal with it.

There's a difference between a player asking for elaboration from a player they think is town and a scumbag giving himself a way out of a town read (hint: it involves committing to the town read). 834 is the latter, not the former. And as inHim so nicely pointed out earlier, he's been doing this ALL GAME. Why is Dup-scum still alive?

The Nautilus distancing was Regfan promising to read into him for a better read, along with you. Are we distancing you too?

1) Not buying it. Not the right tone - note the "bring up the lack of read first and THEN mention my neutral read on Naut", which is not town wording (and IS IIoA wording)

2) No, because Duplicity was using the kind of rhetoric to attack me that scum use to attack townies (seriously, scum don't attack scum using dishonest "red flag" rhetoric). He ALSO doesn't have the balls to follow through - just like he doesn't have the balls to follow through with concluding that I am scum earlier in this post (since he's clearly arguing that I am arguing in a scum manner, but not following through on it).

As for wavelengths, getting that someone is more than likely clear is not something that requires very much thought. Especially when you don't think of a scumdoc interfering with things

Uh, no. That's not the point of the wavelength argument at all. The only way that the same wavelength applies to Gamma is how BOTH Duplicity and Ben keep using the same dishonest logic about Gamma being cleared AFTER I point out the holes in it.

No, the point of the wavelength argument is that if you go back and look over the whole thread, it becomes clear that Duplicity/Benmage/{Quil/Gamma} have been subtly linked to each other (similar thoughts on who's scum, similar arguments) AT LEAST since the early part of D2 (when I first began attacking Quilford). And I'll bet the only reason such behavior didn't come up D1 is because D1 was too short and Benmage/Duplicity too inactive for it to show up.

what you just argued summed up in 1 sentence: i don't like your tone.

well, can't really defend against that. have fun making flamboyant love to my tone in the pale moonlight.

also, i believe i've stated multiple times i thought you were town but i'd have to make sure. if not, here you are: you're more than likely town.

No, because the mere nonexistence of a scum doc is NOT ENOUGH to clear Gamma.

If there is no Mafia doc AND Gamma does not have any bulletproof shields (which, again, is only confirmable by a trustworthy Scouter) AND Tarhalindur over Mafia is confirmed either nonMafia or confirmed to have nothing to do with disrupting Invictus, THEN AND ONLY THEN Gamma is sufficiently confirmed town for me to back off completely. Until then, there are enough possible explanations for Mafia to kill KK despite his claimed Invictus target for me to not clear him for setup reasons - and his slot's play is certainly bad enough to warrant suspicion.

aside from your next question i'm through talking about gamma, this is getting to be a distraction from doing real work. you are placing entirely too much focus on SMALL THINGS THAT MEAN GAMMA'S NOT 100% CLEAR

So, Duplicity, let's turn this around on you: What, if anything, do you see in Quil/Gamma's POSTS IN THE THREAD that indicate to you that he is town?

tone. no, today is not the day to be a smartass. will address when if i have time as i have to go to a theme park in a few minutes. if i don't get back in time for the deadline i'll do it tomorrow (ingame day). laterz. regfan can also do it if he comes back in time for the deadline.

i will be here for around 10 more minutes while i get ready to go. if you have any questions, i recommend you ask them now as this is the last 10 minutes i have before deadline. any more and you'll have to wait for regfan. content will be small as i AM getting ready after all, but hopefully it can be something. if you want me to claim, now is the time to tell me as you will again have to wait for regfan when i leave.

Unvote, Vote: Gut

tar, please name all of your scumreads as i'm pretty sure you've said me, benmage, gamma, nautilus, moi, and god knows who else. there can only be so many scum in one game man.

-shift

also, gamma, glad to see that 7 months after i first met you you still make good idiot insurance

[Duplicity]

Duplicity Zach was commenting on you changing your invictus from Baby Spice to Zach, not from gut to baby spice.
I'm not even going to bother changing my vote because it seems like nobody else is willing to hammer anything this game. I'd prefer Gut's death over Duplicitys though.

oh and sorry about this zach. order of your post confused me as you quoted the baby spice invictus last, though as that was the main thing i wanted to pressure/lynch you for i can't really justify a vote on you atm.

-shift

[Fate]

Just a heads up.

Duplicity is scum as all hell.

In his latest post DGB, he said basically "what the fucking fuck how in the HELL am I getting wagonned right now? No one in this fucking town could just have lynched Gut or Zach when we ran them up?"

Then he went on to make a series of snarky posts responding ONLY to people attacking him, (aka he wasnt focused on scumhunting), and more scumplaining.

Do not lynch Gut today over scumplicity. Do not.

[Gut]

just a heads up, my primary shift key (har har) is broken meaning i'm not going to bother capitalizing except for punctuation, symbols, and when i pull a fate with my KAPS LAWK. deal with it.

Real caps lockers use the shift key. That's the only way to get truly angry typing.

Only thing I can do:

Unvote, vote: Duplicity

Nautilius should get on.

[Fate]

He also refuses to fake-claim before deadline lol.

Because he figures the trend has been "they dont lynch people who haven't claimed, those lolcowards" so he'll keep hi smouth shut UNLESS someone threatens the fuck out of him and he has no choice.

I mean, he can't be any more obvscum. He isn't as obvscum as say, MoI, but he is certainly the fuck up there.

[Duplicity]

fate, scum is in [gut, zach, nautilus, illuminati, vit] with at least one lurking in my town/null reads. i haven't had much of a chance to talk to regfan about reads recently, but there's mine for now. regfan has kept a much closer eye on the thread than i have.

dgb, my last post was pretty much: here is where tar is doing selective quotes that make me look bad when the guy's later posts make me look decent, here's me forgetting about bp possibility (answered in recent post), here's me posting my zach mini case that the foundation turned out to be a misunderstanding on.

[Duplicity]

fate, i've offered to claim and i'll take that as a request foir one.

i have invictus, and that is it. enjoy.

[Fate]

A nice simple VT claim, not too shabby.

Get lynched, your reads are all general and vauge and designed for maximum wifom+distancing

[Vi]

Mini Vote Count:
Gut (L-1) ~ DrippingGoofball, MagnaofIllusion, Zachrulez, The Illuminati, Benmage, Duplicity
Duplicity (L-2) ~ Ban, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, Fate, Gut
Zachrulez (L-6) ~ Nautilius,

Gut, Duplicity

MagnaofIllusion (L-6) ~ Gammagooey

(Minimum L-7)

-Gut is at L-1!

--Deadline is Tuesday, July 19 at 2100 EST.

((expired on 2011-07-19 21:00:00))

[Fate]

Gut (L-1) ~ DrippingGoofball, MagnaofIllusion, Zachrulez, The Illuminati, Benmage, Duplicity
Duplicity (L-2) ~ Ban, Tarhalindur, VitaminR, Fate, Gut


You sure put Gut at L-1 REAL NICE AND SILENTLY.

Lol Duplicity.

LOLSCUM

[Fate]

Oh NOW you do your goddamn job Vi

[Duplicity]

well, i've got to go now so see you all tomorrow, hopefully.

in the meantime, fate once moi and i flip town i again demand that the lynch be turned over to someone that knows how to use it.

-shift

pedit: fate have you even been reading my posts at all?

[Fate]

Nautiulius and Gamma both vote Duplicity. I need this, town NEEDS this.

Prove you fucks are actually TOWN

[Fate]

well, i've got to go now so see you all tomorrow, hopefully.

in the meantime, fate once moi and i flip town i again demand that the lynch be turned over to someone that knows how to use it.

-shift

pedit: fate have you even been reading my posts at all?

You demand that ?? and Wha??

You sure think this distancing act fools me? "If I call MoI town for sure like I KNOW he's town then when I flip scum no one will look at him lol."

Your post reeks of so much inside information and scumbaggery.

Your approach to this game hasn't been town in the SLIGHTEST, yes I've been reading your posts that's how I CAUGHT YOU YOU FUCK

[Fate]

DGB, Benmage.

You're the only townies I can appeal to to get the fuck off Gut

[Gammagooey]

So I may have lied about it me taking a maximum of 2 hours with other stuff because computer repair is hard. Probably gonna just get some dinner and then head back to the library for postan, shouldn't take too much longer.

Hai Fate.

[Nautilius]

Vote: Duplicity

DGB is scum...