Open 321: Kc's FIRE and ICE: Game over.

[Klazam]

All right. Power rereading done. I'll knock VE off my list, and replace him with Smarg. I now have reason to believe that killerjester and VE is on the same scumteam.

WHY?

Because I reread, and found one common thread within PI04, cavjj, and kj's play. That thread was soft defense/distancing with VE. In everything else, opinions seemed to change between these three players, but not with VE.

[VisceraEyes]

Seems silly to me, but ur still town to me bro

Anyway, I'm all about a TF lynch as he's totally NOT on my town list. So.

VOTE: Toon Fighter

[killerjester]

Defense and distancing are also two different opinions. You can't find a worthable scumpartner for me because there isn't one.

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually glad VE is off your townlist and smarg was added instead. But let's face it, everyone's been pulling strings and trying to force a scum connection between my slot and other players where there isn't one. I feel like everyone is guilting me by association to PI04 and cavjj when I really haven't done all that much, and using that bias to assume things I have done are scum-motivated. Yet all anyone can really find in PI04 and cavjj is individual scummyness. Isn't it possible they coincidentally both came off as scummy townplayers?

I mean really. Krazy thinks I'm partner with TF because I think he's scum but didn't vote him, when really I was just caught up with how scummy Krazy was. And Klazam thinks I'm partner with VE because my predecessors defended VE at some points and distanced him at others. Yet this is completely consistent with town players that just have changing reads, not indecisive scum who can't figure out how the fuck they're going to treat their partner.

PEDIT: WOO TF wagon is a gooooo.

[smargaret]

My vote isn't moving off KJ again until he's dead. I'm as convinced he's scum as you can be, absent a confirmed-sane confirmed-cop report on a player.

[killerjester]

You can think that. But you'd be wrong.

Don't worry, after the game is over you can all say, "BUT HIS PREDECESSORS WERE SO SCUMMY! I DON'T UNDERSTAND! HE SHOULD'VE BEEN SCUM!"

[Krazy]

I mean really. Krazy thinks I'm partner with TF because I think he's scum but didn't vote him, when really I was just caught up with how scummy Krazy was.

I know I was probably starting to give that impression, and it definitely is a reasonable assessment, but actually my problem was that your interaction (or lack of interaction given your suspicion) made no sense in the context of you tunneling on me, and your apparently subversive tactics to control the lynch did not reflect town motivations.

Although your newfound enthusiasm for TF is encouraging, you still haven't actually explained why YOU think he is scum. Can you please do that?

[killerjester]

I'm liking the wagon on VE so for now I shall

vote: VisceraEyes

Opportunistic

Now that I've read the last few pages (where most of the interesting stuff happens, I can say this:

MJP, your posts seem good, but they are way too big and too frequent. Please concentrate your posts and don't make huge walls. On their actual content, you make a huge case against verydark, repeating yourself a couple of times, but your vote stays pressuring me, who you barely mention in your posts. Clarify this to me, please.

verydark, your post 192 is very interesting. First of all, because you just push MJP very hard because he tried to put VE at L-1. Second, because you seem to be deluded that we are still on RVS. Granted, MJP's asking for a claim wasn't very good, especially when he jumped wagons right afterwards, but your post isn't very good either. Your other posts are nothing special either, as we can see from gbevil's analysis.

gbevil seems to be doing decent posts and decent scumhunting. Nothing big to say here.

Empking seems to be trying hard to defend VE. I wonder if there is a connection between the two.

PI, I repeat the questions other players are asking, what are your opinions on the game and who seems scummiest?

malpascp, I agree that PI's post was bad, but to me it seemed like classic VI, why do you think he deserved your vote, can you elaborate on that?

Things that are wrong here!
- Fencesitting on verydark. I would expect a town player that has a scum read on VE to accuse verydark of the chainsaw defense, and get a scum read on verydark. However, TF simply states his post is "interesting".
- Tries to paint Empking as VE's partner. I can see TF setting up Empking to be killed if VE hangs.
- Generally null opinions on the other players. It feels like he doesn't want to take a firm stance here.

OK, I can post now.

As previous noted, and as I can see now, I still believe that VE can be mafia. Those AtE of his and asking for his own lynch are horrid play in my opinion. I can't believe we let a guy playing that much anti-town live for a single day.

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Empking seems very confident on his reads, and I believe he may be right about something. But I want more explanation from him to how he came up with that list of suspects and why VE is innocent.

Distancing from VE again.

I claim VT

Early claim.

hey. Kudos for the doc.

Mod, when you say Empking died by Fira Maf that means ONLY Fire Maf targeted him or Fire Maf targeted him first?

I think TF might be softclaiming ice mafia here. Besides congratulating the doc, he finds it the flavor for the kill odd. It's possible he (the ice mafia) targeted Empking and is surprised that the flavor gives credit to the fire mafia.

vd, cirno, cavjj, and krazy is scum

Empking's list. The main thing he posted and pushed during D1. Probably the reason why he was killed by the ice mafia. I believe that this list has at least one, maybe two members of that mafia, and they were afraid that Emp was going to get to them.

He posted the list fairly early in the game and stayed with it during all of D1. He may have gotten vd (whiskers) wrong, but the others could be right. I just ISO'd cavjj and he seems likely scum, jumping on Whiskers wagon and RV Xanatos out of the blue in the middle of the game. Now killerjester replaced him and we need to see how he turns out.

I will ISO the other two and be right back.

If I'm right, and TF is ice mafia, then now we know why he killed Empking. It's to say, "The mafia probably killed him cause he was right!" and set up lynches from Empking's pool.

On ISO'ing Krazy, it seems to me that he always jumps on wagons and tries to fake scumhunting. He jumps on the VE wagon when it's almost dead, and tries to ride it during most of D1. When it looks like there are other possible wagons, he immediately jumps to L-2 Reab and after that to the very strong Whiskers wagon, riding it to the mislynch. Now, on D2, he just hops onto my wagon on the beginning of the day and ignores almost everything that happened up to that point (including his VE suspicion). He doesn't seem to actually scumhunt, just to be trying to fake it. Also, he protects cavjj when he states his suspicions, which could indicate a scum team's works.

vote: Krazy

Cirno seems to be a better player than Krazy, and playing more town, he gets on VE wagon but at a better time than Krazy, and he votes Xanatos for the cavjj's shenanigans. He doesn't change wagons again during D1, and in D2 he gets back onto Xanatos for what happened with my 'congrats, doc!' post. He seems to be trying to scumhunt more, but I don't see any real results during D1, and D2 is going good so far. I sense a possible Xanatos - Cirno scum team, with Cirno bussing, but I don't think it's likely.

This is honestly the first genuine scumhunting I've seen him do all game. This adds credence to my idea that TF and Krazy are not partners.

If Krazy is scum, I think CSL or kj can be in his scumteam

Also genuine, yet selective, scumhunting. He wants to kill Krazy and then look for Krazy's partner.

CSL is getting more and more scum-points in my book. Randomly changing votes, crappy posts, repeatedly stating Krazy as town. I'd prefer to see (him~? her?) lynched and then go to Krazy, as I see CSL as more likely scum at the moment.

unvote, vote: CSL

OPPORTUNISTIC, does not match up with the scumhunting he's done on Krazy

Hey. I still defend that kj, Krazy, or VE are prob mafia. I don't have much time now, prob tomorrow will make better post. Will analyse D2 and D3 and try and find scum there. For now, though, I will not vote.

Oh good, I was almost worried he forgot about distancing VE.

[Krazy]

kj a few things:

You start out saying that TF throws out an "opportunistic" vote on VE, yet the rest of the time you list him as "distancing VE". It seems like you're saying that TF and VE are likely partners, in which case are you saying that first "opportunistic" vote was a bus? If not can you explain what you mean exactly by "opportunistic".

I still don't understand why you would go full speed ahead on me if you had a similar reaction to the "Kudos for the doc post" that Klazam had. If you thought Toon Fighter was scummy at that point in the game, why would you instead ignore Toon Fighter's post at that point (iirc this is the first time you've commented on it at all) and the growing case on him, and instead try to start a wagon on someone on his wagon?

And if you think TF killed Empking to set up lynches from Empking's lynch pool, why would you then join him on my wagon if that is exactly what he was doing? Your reasoning was "this person is scum and therefore I will join him on a scum wagon"?

Also, you say that he killed Empking to set up lynches from Empking's lynch pool, then TF's OMGUS vote on me where he does exactly that is "the first genuine scumhunting" you've seen him do all game?

[Toon Fighter]

What did you want me to say about their actions?

I can't explain the thought process behind them because it wasn't me playing. And my opinion on them is rather pointless as my role PM clearly states I'm town.

I would've loved to see you at least trying to explain their actions. I understand that you can't really jump into their brains to tell us what they may have thought with their bad gameplay.

For right now, i have made the decision to vote for TF.

Not because of your last post, but there is some other reason. He was never really actively contributing to the game, more lurking, not here, avoiding prods, going v/la or anything. Furthermore he was always 2nd place on my scumlist behind CSL. Everytime he made a scumslip he went inactive again, so someone else maybe slips, and the suspicioun gets drawn off him. Sadly he started almost every dayphase with a fail, and we didnt even lynch him until now because someone else always crapped up. Even now, he does'nt have time to contribute, as he sees that all the votes are going for killerjester. I am not willing to put kj at L-1 just for TF to come back, make a crappy excuse and insult, and hammer him.

Vote: Toon Fighter

Reason: Mad lurking and all the above mentioned things

FoS: Killerjester

Reason: Predecessors, himself trying to win my vote for TF, and the "had to check rolepm" and "LOL im cavjjs replacement"- cases.

In your previous posts you were keeping your vote on kj, why suddenly change it? I WAS V/LA, and I had good reasons. It's not my fault I was unable to contribute much during the summer. But I'm back and I'm trying to help town.

I started days with bad posts, but they don't come from scum, they come from town. They just looked bad in context. About the Fire/Ice flavour thing, I just wanted to know more about the night actions and nightkills and possible nightkill motives. As a VT, I want to know as much information about the game as possible, and for that information to be made public. It was a COHINCIDENCE that the mod made the flavour wrong and made me look bad -.-

And why would I insult? Now you are just aiming low.

As for the kj points, I'll adress them in another post.

[killerjester]

@Krazy in order:

Yes.
I did my own scumhunting, you were at the tip top of my list. I was by no means ignoring TF.
I don't see it as problematic that scum is helping the town to kill rival scum. If anything, I find it helpful. All that it suggests is the lynches TF pushed from D2 onward were not likely to be his scum partners.
TF had very legitimate suspicions for voting you.

[Toon Fighter]

As for kj's post (after my 1st post I see Krazy made a few comments I was going to make, but I have some things to add):

About my first posts: It was a) the beginning of the game and b) I didn't have much time. I couldn't make a very detailed analysis on every player of the game, so I went with gut and basic feelings. I liked the wagon on VE and therefore voted him. And verydark, in my post I did accuse him, just softly. If I had instead attacked him strongly, you would have said that I was chainsaw defending VE now. And I still can't tell whether you think I'm scum with VE or not. Also, null opinion on others is because I didn't have much time to analyse the game and not much had happened yet.

My claim wasn't early. I was being wagoned and claiming felt like the right thing to do to not get lynched. And, besides, as I pointed out later, claiming in this game is almost worth nothing, as we only have 2 possible claims (doc and VT).

I tried to explain my "congrats post" in my previous post. Hope it was clear. And congratulating the doc can't be considered a scum tell.

And in the next post, what if you're wrong? Then it's just a townie looking for possible reasons for a NK and scumhunting from there. You just ignore that possiblity (which is the truth) and you go ahead with your "lynch setup" theory. And I still believe he may be right in some of his suspicions.

What is wrong with post 677? I scumhunt and you think it's scummy? I try to find connections and you accuse me of setting up lynches? You just misrepresent my every post!

In post 691, I saw CSL as a more likely lynch (and also for likely scum) for D2 than Krazy, so I changed my vote. If I see another possible scum, what's so wrong with changing votes? Our goal is to lynch scum, not a specific scum. Between CSL and Krazy, sure, I'd prefer to see a Krazy lynch, but since a CSL one was more likely, I jumped wagons.

[killerjester]

Seriously? What the hell!

Krazy: You're totally defending TF! SCUMZZZZ!
Me: No, I've said he's scum. I want him dead, too.

TF: I really can't tell if you think I'm scum with VE.

But my two hypothetical scumteams are Krazy & Cirno and

TF & VE

ITT: Scums skim all my posts, and don't pay attention to my reads on the players this game.

[Toon Fighter]

I just meant with the 'opportunistic' vote on VE what did you meant, like Krazy asked. If I am scum with VE, then how is voting him opportunistic? You already answered that, so you don't need to address it further.

[Krazy]

Krazy: You're totally defending TF! SCUMZZZZ!
Me: No, I've said he's scum. I want him dead, too.

Although that was my first impression, and it still doesn't seem an unreasonable one, what it boils down to is that your suspicions of TF are inconsistent with your actions and stated suspicions throughout the last two days. I'm having difficulty understanding why, as town, you would:
a) Not address a post you take to be suspicious (the doc congratulation post) when it is made.
b) Instead of addressing it, try to form a wagon on someone who does, while still avoiding (or at least NOT) addressing the other player.
c) Create a game to force out town-reads.
d) Refuse to explain why you believe players are scum in and of their posts themselves (first for TF) and instead rely almost exclusively, until goaded to actually explain your reasoning, on associative tells (now true in regard to VE).

You may be scum with TF. Or you may be on opposing factions and your current vote on him is opportunistic. But after your previous tunneling on me, your current case on TF just seems... insincere, forced, and inconsistent with both your behavior throughout this game, and to an extent, with your own reasoning. First TF is scum killing Empking to set up mislynches. Then TF is scumhunting on me. In the context of the current game it is opportunistic as well. I'll have to ponder this, but as of right now, I don't see a town motivation in any of those four points.

[Kcdaspot]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 5

killerjester

- 3 - smargaret, Klazam, Krazy - (L-2)

Reab

- 1 - Cirno - (L-4)

Toon Fighter

- 3 - killerjester, Reab, ViscaraEyes - (L-2)

Players not voting: David Xanthos, Toon Fighter

Deadline is September 30th 2011 at 8 pm Central time.

(expired on 2011-09-30 20:00:00)

[David Xanatos]

VOTE: Toon Fighter

I hope I don't end up regretting this..

[Klazam]

DX- what changed your mind?

[David Xanatos]

I just can't reconcile post #558 with a Town mindset. I really can't..

[David Xanatos]

Sod it.

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[David Xanatos]

That was in the wrong topic. Whoops.

[Klazam]

DX- all three posts in the wrong topic?

[David Xanatos]

No, the latter two are. First one is this one.

[Toon Fighter]

vote: killerjester

I said everything in my defence. You can all see how bad kj's case on me is (Krazy's posts and my posts). He is the scum here, not me. I hope town wins this game.

[killerjester]

It's too bad you have no case, scum.

It's almost like you think last minute L-1 votes and AtE's will win you the game.

[Kcdaspot]

Filler. next page.