Mini 1246 - Bizarro Mafia: ...Mate! Who won?

[hiplop]

Junpei is scum. Thoughts?

[Pads]

A topic I was planning on explorer further with my post later tonight.

Ace's attacks on me are reasonable.
I find TehBrawlGuy's suspicion of me to have just the right tone of rational caution for a townie.
Viscera Eyes' attack is fairly lazy, but I don't find it scummy.

Junpei's attacks looked less reasonable on the first read through, one of which I've already elaborated on.

Oh, and while I'm here, Hiplop, concerning your last post, I can actually sympathize with that, as I used to do that all the time (not really stopping and reading the last half page or so of posts).

I'll be back tonight.

[Pads]

Exploring*

[hiplop]

im being serious. Hes got to be scum.

[Junpei]

Hiplop to use your own words (slightly transcribed)...

Drips

hiplops case is BAD. It looks like he CHOSE to think

darox is

I am scum. Like he doesnt actually- just looking for things to be scummy,

not actually scumhunting

. Could be scum

IDK

,seems pretty likely to me.

Oh look, you waffled in this post...

[ace5993]

Pads/hiplop scumteam. Thoughts?

and the fact that [Pad's vote] is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia

This is the "less reasonable" quote from Junpei.

Rather he votes with IS-scum (as a possible IS counterwagon attempt?).

While this is part of my reasonable attack.

I know there has to be that one guy on your wagon who's case isn't as solid, but I'm surprised you picked Junpei. I probably would have gone for TehBrawlGuy myself.

[hiplop]

i disagree respectfully with your case ACE.

Its pads/junpei

[ace5993]

Oh wait, TehBrawlGuy is actually on your side. No wonder I didn't remember his case on you to be very appealing >_>

Anyway, the fact that

you

weren't aware of this suggests that you didn't actually re-read. Which further suggests that you half-heartedly picked a name based on vague memories at best.

@hiplop - As long as you're voting Pads today that's fine. It's more likely Pads/Darox anyway.

[Pads]

and the fact that [Pad's vote] is with Internet Stranger, a confirmed mafia

This is the "less reasonable" quote from Junpei

Rather he votes with IS-scum (as a possible IS counterwagon attempt?).

While this is part of my reasonable attack.

I know there has to be that one guy on your wagon who's case isn't as solid, but I'm surprised you picked Junpei. I probably would have gone for TehBrawlGuy myself.

Ya got me. The flow of logic that says that because I voted with InternetStranger I must be his buddy is nonsense regardless of from whom it stems, be it said earnestly from you, parroted mechanically by Junpei, or regurgitated thoughtlessly by VisceraEyes.

What I was more consciously referring to, however, was the issue of my vote on Mozamis, which both of you stated. Both of you attacked me for it. One of those attacks I found reasonable, the other not. The difference? The speaker.

As I said, I'm willing to accept different ways of playing mafia, and differing opinions about techniques, what is scummy and what is not, etc... So when I see an attack like this:

Pads - INCONSISTENCY. Only posts on mozamis were saying "not sure one way or another" followed by "I'm giving mozamis a pass today for posting content". His suspects were ThirdKoopa and Darox. Huh? Rather he votes with IS-scum (as a possible IS counterwagon attempt?). Heavily leaning scum.

... I say to myself, 'Hey, there's a guy who truly thinks that inconsistency is a sign of scumminess. I was surely inconsistent on Day 1, and this guy spent all day saying that we need to announce our intentions and follow through. I didn't do that, so he finds me scummy. I heartily disagree with the reasoning, but I can see someone believing this, and I find his suspicion genuinely in line with what he's preaching.'

Also, you ask for information, even if you announce that you don't feel it will likely change your mind. It shows that there's at least some part of you that's trying to figure things out.

So, I found this attack reasonable.

Then I see TehBrawlGuy come in and say....

@Pads: It's relevant. If you can show how he (Mozamis) was scummy before IS's flip, it gives a reason for you to have not been on IS wagon. My unwillingness to vote you is based on faith that you can do that. If you can't, I very well might vote you today.

... And I say to myself, 'Hey, here's a guy who, while against announcing vote intentions, spoke in support of vocalizing suspicions on Day 1. My vote was on a guy who I did not list susipicions on, so this guy is suspicious of my actions. Perfectly reasonable.

And again, seeking additional information to try to understand what he does not understand. All good signs in my book.

But then we come to Junpei.

I really find his mozami vote out of place

Uh.. what? This is from the same guy who said...

My plan:

Stop announcing votes, that's bad to do.

... and from the guy who was highly suspicious of InternetStranger AND from the guy who's last recorded intention to vote was for InternetStranger yet voted for Hiplop, completely avoiding any possible chance of participating in a lynch? Is he really attacking me for changing my mind?

More importantly,

I did the thing that he felt was a good idea and now he's attacking me for it

? Maybe he feels I'm lying about finding Mozamis scummy. Wait, no, he said....

I admit, Mozami is quite scummy.

So, my Mozamis vote is reasonable because Mozami is quite scummy. So, what the hell is the problem? Could it be.... that the attacker isn't trying to figure anything out, that he's simply parroting the attacks without a real care or comprehension of what's going on? Tunneling so hard that he doesn't change his mind when one of his two attack points is shown to be not so bad after all? I find this to be an alarming distance from a townie mindset.

All that's left of his case then is my vote with InternetStranger. Player A is scum. Player A does a thing. Player B does the same thing, thus Player B is also scum. Does this even need refuting? Is this that 'solid' part of your case that you're implying exists Ace? Let's explore...

InternetStranger is scum. InternetStranger discouraged making voting intentions public. Junpei discouraged making voting intentions public. Junpei is also scum.

InternetStranger is scum. InternetStranger supported an early wagon on Mozamis. Ace supported an early wagon on Mozamis. Ace is also scum.

InternetStranger is scum. InternetStranger believes he was making valid, pro-town cases. Otolia believes InternetStranger was making valid, pro-town cases. Otolia is also scum.



Isn't this fun? I've already shown why strategically it makes no sense for a scumbuddy to vote with IS, even if he didn't end up lynched (or at least I think I have, since everyone has continued their attacks with "I don't believe you, Pads" rather than discussing the issues point for point.). And now I hope we all see the logic behind it is flawed, as is Junpei's suspicion of me.

On a side note, I also have yet to hear anyone say "Yes, Pads, I firmly believe InternetStranger was railing against his scumbuddy's scum hunting and insulting them for the last three pages of Day 1." I would have really liked to see that on record.

My wagon was constructive but it went on too long for bad reasons. I recommend contemplating another target.

I'll be back after some sleep.

[Junpei]

Haha, nice spinning... but I'm afraid that there is an issue in your reasoning. I said don't announce votes as in "I'm voting X". You should announce suspicion, I've also been pro-scumhunting and pro-reads, which means that you should have been expressing some issues with mozami. But you didn't, instead you expressed that you were going to let him pass today.

The last part of your post is pure wine, and so is the attacks IS put on you, I would not put it out of his reach to distance from you like he did.

[hiplop]

^^ guys quit bussing its annoying me

[mozamis]

Otolia was in this game?

P.S. The results of the votes was obvious, but much less useful thanks to all the mud stirred up.
Implicates Pads for helping push a counter wagon and

everyone piling onto the IS wagon for free bussing

.
Kinda surprised there was no other overlap between all the other votes.

Did anyone vote for Otolia?

um only 3 people were on the IS wagon. Misrep?

[Darox]

How many people were on other wagons that didn't include IS?

Hint: It's a damn sight smaller than three.

[Junpei]

How many people were on other wagons that didn't include IS?

Hint: It's a damn sight smaller than three.

You can't use a generalization like "everyone" and a metaphor which implies many like "piling on" when you only mean "more in relation to others". It makes no sense.

What you said, makes no sense.

[Darox]

Too bad.

[TehBrawlGuy]

I hate doing this because it telegraphs my vote, but oh well.

Darox needs to die. He's useless and scummy, and regardless of your opinion on Pads, Pads is actually active and contributing. In the event we ML, Darox ML is much less disruptive to Town than Pads ML. I would also rate Darox as the scummier of the two. I'm not going to talk about Pads for the sake of keeping my D3 vote under wraps, but Darox lynch is far better imo.

[Darox]

That's a disgusting post.

"Hey guys, let's mislynch this guy first! I think he's got more traction and then we can mislynch Pads tomorrow P.S. I'm going to keep my vote free floating so that I can reverse my position any time I want with repercussion!"

I know who I'm voting for.

[Junpei]

That's a disgusting post.

"Hey guys, let's mislynch this guy first! I think he's got more traction and then we can mislynch Pads tomorrow P.S. I'm going to keep my vote free floating so that I can reverse my position any time I want with repercussion!"

I know who I'm voting for.

To me it read:

"Darox as town is a softer loss than Pads as town. However I feel Darox to be very scummy, and much scummier than Pads, whom you all seem to want to lynch."

Also I'm curious as to where you got "I"m going to keep my vote free floating" when he essentially just locked in his vote for the day.

[TehBrawlGuy]

That's a disgusting post.

"Hey guys, let's mislynch this guy first! I think he's got more traction and then we can mislynch Pads tomorrow P.S. I'm going to keep my vote free floating so that I can reverse my position any time I want with repercussion!"

I know who I'm voting for.

I love how you only point out how I'm not wanting to announce my vote when I'm pushing you. It's not as if I haven't been drilling that in the whole game, no.

And as Junpei said, I'm locked in for today, so I think that makes up for it. I hardly doubt you have more traction, the momentum I've seen is on Pads .

What I meant: "Useless scummy person is a better lynch than useful scummy person. If you're like Ace and think both are scummy, Darox is a better pick to go first. I personally think Darox is more scummy anyway, but I don't know if any of you do to, and I'd rather the wagon be on the person who's I think is contributing less and is scummier. "

Does the IS lynch mean nothing? I'm curious as to why the Town points I imagine I got from that > one post. I'm also curious as to your projected scumbuddy for me.

[Darox]

Fun fact:
Hiding your vote at this point is a terrible idea.

Do you remember why I was fighting for non-disclosure D1?
No of course you don't. You didn't get it even while it was happening. But do you remember me talking about that and you fumbling the mental ball?

The reasons for why we should have done that is to give the scum the opportunity to out themselves through a voting bloc. Now that this plan has been trampled by a herd of screaming elephants and everybody knows, we don't have any reason to hide our votes. Because doing so lets the scum, who still have a greater influence on the lynch than any of us, push whatever lynch they want free of charge.

P.S. There's no such thing as useful scum. Keeping someone you think is scummy (More scummy even) alive over someone else just because they are polite and spouting mouth words is a disconnect from winning the game.

Also, the worst part of your post "regardless of your feelings on Pads"
Let's just sliiiiiiiiiiide that animosity towards Pads over onto Darox, can't be losing another scumbuddy.

[TehBrawlGuy]

Fun fact:
Hiding your vote at this point is a terrible idea.

Do you remember why I was fighting for non-disclosure D1?
No of course you don't. You didn't get it even while it was happening. But do you remember me talking about that and you fumbling the mental ball?

The reasons for why we should have done that is to give the scum the opportunity to out themselves through a voting bloc. Now that this plan has been trampled by a herd of screaming elephants and everybody knows, we don't have any reason to hide our votes. Because doing so lets the scum, who still have a greater influence on the lynch than any of us, push whatever lynch they want free of charge.

P.S. There's no such thing as useful scum. Keeping someone you think is scummy (More scummy even) alive over someone else just because they are polite and spouting mouth words is a disconnect from winning the game.

Also, the worst part of your post "regardless of your feelings on Pads"
Let's just sliiiiiiiiiiide that animosity towards Pads over onto Darox, can't be losing another scumbuddy.

Scum wagoning together and pushing a lynch? You know what that sounds like to me? A voting bloc. Besides, the reality is that they have to express suspicion beforehand unless they want to be thrust into the spotlight ala Pads, so they can't just vote whoever they want.

P.S. I never said there was. I said useful scummy. Scummy =/= scum. Scummy players can and will flip Town. If the scumminess between two players is minimal, taking out the person who's more useful will be much worse if they flip town.

Think about it. If the prize for winning a random roll was $10, would you rather bet $10 that you'd hit a 5/10 chance, or bet $5 you'd hit a 4/10? That's what I'm talking about. If someone thinks Pads is only very slightly more scummy than you are, you're our better option, because you're the one whom we lose less from if you're Town. This is irrelevant for me, since I think you're a better pick for Scum in the first place. Bottom line is that with a good lynch on D1, Town is in the lead. I don't want this lead lost. We mislynch Pads, Ace eats a NK, and then it's suddenly just me and Junpei doing big things in the thread. That possible future is unnerving to me, especially so if Junpei is Scum. So long as we don't let this thing stagnate, we're in good shape.

And yes, regardless of how you feel, he's active and posting content. You can't deny that. You can't deny that he's an asset to Town content-wise if he himself is Town.

Also, way to 180 on Pads. Now he's my scumbuddy when

you just said he was Town two posts ago.

That's a disgusting post.

"Hey guys, let's mislynch this guy first! I think he's got more traction and then

we can mislynch Pads tomorrow

P.S. I'm going to keep my vote free floating so that I can reverse my position any time I want with repercussion!"

I know who I'm voting for.

Also, answer the questions I asked in my #268.

[Darox]

Yes that sure does show that I have an ironclad belief that Pads is town and I totally doubled back by calling him scum by association in my next post.

Please stop being so fucking stupid.

Or die for being scum.
That also works.

P.S. Voting out in public leads to discussion and reasons being brought to life, rather than a day reveal with a lynch majority and scum shrugging their shoulders saying 'whoops' while stifling giggles because they never have to justify any mislynch ever.

[Pads]

That misrep by TehBrawlGuy is atrocious.

Ya know, I was going to type something a little more organized tonight, but I'm so very, very tired. So I'm just going to slap this together.

Junpei and TehBrawlGuy have raised my eyebrow here on good ol' Day 2. But here's the thing. TehBrawlGuy is right, we're up at the moment. And I can think we can and should put some pressure on the, shall we call them... minimalists? We can't afford to wait until lynch or lose to do so, and my friends of the town, I'm afraid that my error in judgement and the sloth of today have ensured that I'm not going to be there to help you do it.

The time for pressuring the inactive, thus, must be now. The white knights can fight amongst themselves Day 4+.

Wasabi's seemingly strained grasp of the game mechanics certainly leans him towards town, but his utter lack of anything about anything does not exactly label him as an asset. Anyone with a town PM looking forward to trying to convince Wasabi to help lynch their scum choice in Lynch or Lose?

Hiplop, VisceraEyes, and Mozamis have kept a pretty low profile today. Of the three, Hiplop is the only one not set to cruise control in Ace's wake, which is a point in his favor.

Darox has become a source of amusement for me, and he wouldn't be my first choice for a scum or policy lynch at this point. I might feel better about him if his game setup insights weren't more prolific than his scumfinding insights, and it's quite likely that my initial thoughts on the Otolia kill were a result of thinking too hard about it ("Otolia attacks Darox, Darox scumkills Otolia" is not an unreasonable line of thought).

Also of note, I'm the doc, and I've been trying to tell you guys that.

I don't dare to dream that I'm going to make it to Night 3

As opposed to Day 3. A little odd for someone who's supposed to die Night 2, no?

'I got 99 problems, but a lynch ain't one.'

Hrm, who in my position would possibly not be worried about being lynched. The only power role left, perchance?

I recommend contemplating another target.

...because you're going to need it sooner than you think.

Ah, well. I probably wouldn't have picked up on it, either.

So here we are, a little more than 24 hours out. We've got four days of "Yeah, what Ace said!" and "I don't believe you, Pads!" but somehow we need to piece together a pro-town lynch and maybe we'll get some scum while we're at it.

If I had to choose at this moment, I would choose ThirdKoopa. Honestly, that character slot needs to be modkilled,and I don't think replacement is acceptable anymore. Was not the tagline of this particular game something about good old fashioned scum hunting? No townie can be reasonably asked to read him. And if the mod doesn't want to get rid of him, we need to.

[Wasabi]

I agree that Thirdkoopa has been utterly useless, but I feel we need to rely on the mod to handle that. I do see in Jedo's sig line that he's seeking a replacement, at least.

I think we can probably drop mozamis from the list of suspects on the basis of his lynch vote on IS, and IS's vote on him.
I'm not 100% confident in Pads' roleclaim, but unwilling to gamble a vote there until the game develops further.

My vote will probably fall someplace in the Darox / Junpei / VisceraEyes realm.

[Jedo the Jedi]

1 day, 8 hours, 14 minutes

until end of Day.