The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)

[Feysal]

That picture above was meant to say "LOL, what is this, I don't even."

It was my theorizing on why the wagons on me and kanye may have stalled despite neither of us being mafia, based on the recognition that there must have been town on the PeregrineV wagon. The common assumption seems to be that the PeregrineV wagon may have been driven by scum to save their buddy kanye, but that may not have been the case. My theory is that the mafia did not care which one of us would be lynched, resulting in the wagons stalling due to town indecision, and the PeregrineV wagon may have been the result of town dissatisfaction with existing wagons and the desire to end the long day.

The question I keep coming back to is why was I not lynched if kanye was scum? If scum joined the PeregrineV wagon to save their buddy, and gave little reason for doing so, why had they not joined my wagon when Andrius was trying to have me lynched?

First off, you believed someone in a bastard game when they volunteered to be killed and said it would be good for the town? WTF?

Yes. What else can I say? I believed Furcolow was town, and precisely because this is a bastard game, I thought it possible he would have some pro-town intent in having himself vigged. It definitely did not seem like an anti-town ploy either.

Secondly, quoting this post for posterity so I can laugh at you later when/if gandalf comes up as non-town.

I note that you included the when/if clause, meaning you're not exactly sure of Gandalf being non-town either. I could be wrong, it happens, but that is just part of the game. I'm not going to drop my own opinion in favor of yours just because you say so.

Vote: VitaminR

Looking at where the wagons are, this one seems most promising to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

First a friendly information post –

AGM has officially claimed Scum Seraph in the QT. I confirm that Andy is pretty much accurately describing what is going on there (except for calling me patronizing … asking you to stop spamming isn’t being patronzing ).

So from now on I am going to ask Mina / Faraday to tell us whenever AGM / Thor are on the clock.

If ANYTHING remotely negative happens to you during the period that AGM / Thor is active you should immediately claim it in thread.

Things like being made a Miller, having any latent powers revoked (while not explaining said powers), or anything else that benefits scum.

This will help Town via the information and allow Mina and Faraday more freedom in choosing their moves if they have additional information about what AGM / Thor are doing.

Thank you for your attention.

[Will-o-wisp]

I thought both Seraphs could give latent powers? Or is it only Mina/Faraday can activate and AGM/Thor deactivate?

And can you explain that list thing about powers? I am having trouble following it? Scum know what powers are in the game? Or just the Scum Seraph?

- Oversoul

[MagnaofIllusion]

I thought both Seraphs could give latent powers? Or is it only Mina/Faraday can activate and AGM/Thor deactivate?

And can you explain that list thing about powers? I am having trouble following it? Scum know what powers are in the game? Or just the Scum Seraph?

- Oversoul

No both can activate and deactivate, according to both Seraphs. I focused on the negative aspects because it would help with scum-hunting and help Mina and Faraday more wisely use the powers they do have. I obviously do not want players who are Town and get Town positive effects (latent powers being activated) to claim that in thread at this juncture. Come Mass-claim time perhaps we will need that info but right now it isn't necessary, IMO.

My understanding is that both Seraphs have an understanding of the powers of their counterpart. This makes sense since both are basically sitting side by side on Top of a Mountain.

[VitaminR]

What happened to the Dekes wagon? That was a promising wagon. The Wow wagon is only marginally better than the kanye one. I guess I can see where the Wow suspicions are coming from, but both read as town to me.

[VitaminR]

Get on VitR instead, ooba.

FYI, just repeating the same terrible read is not content.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll move my vote at deadline to make sure we get a lynch (unless it is on an player I find unacceptable to hang, which is a pretty small list ATM) but it stays on Sun and Moon for the moment to highlight how much bullshit I think the following situation is –

Read Sun and Moon’s ISO. Seriously. It is a bunch of prod-dodging and apologizing.

Statements like this –

But I have some time set aside tonight. I've started working on this already. I've vowed to do it, and I will.

She made this post on Oct 4. Their next post?

MoS, what is your read on MoI?

Use of terms like "busted" make me think you think he is scum, but your previous post does not.

-Amrun

October 10. That’s it. No catch-up, no sign of commitment to the game. The excuses have had to due with illness and lack of time.

Yet on October 11 Amrum herself has over 25 posts all over MS. One of them actively signing up for a new game.

That doesn’t read as someone who is trying to catchup in this game. I smell scum.

--

Anything to add on this?

The ‘Big Reveal’ is that Andius was added to the QT. AGM was basically trolling.

--

Quoting this mostly to acknowledge that I've seen it. And the inclusion of MoS and Wraith within a few posts.

I appreciate the acknowledgement. Take MoS off my approved list as of this post.

And place Sun and Moon and Espeonage at the TOP of the priority list.

Deja vu? That sounds almost exactly like my reason for suspecting PeregrineV. The only difference is that he was a solo player, and did not claim to be overloaded. Otherwise, the behaviors match. So I have to ask, why was the case on PeregrineV bad, and how is the case on Sun and Moon any better?

The wagon (not necessarily the case) on Peregrine was bad because it sprung up like a Beanstalk from Jack and the Beanstalk so close to the end of Day. Timing is the absolute thing that drives my suspicion about the lynch. I don’t disagree that Peregrine making many posts elsewhere while avoiding this thread isn’t a bad thing. I do think that Amrun’s “I’m too overloaded” combined with the continual lurking and Amrun signing up for new games makes that case strong. Especially in light of CSL’s meta of lurking as a scum Hydra.

I asked everyone to defend their position on the wagon basically to see who responded and who didn’t. It may yield benefits down the line.

--

I think CSL meta runs against you with sometihng I saw Vi post before. In the CSL-town games he at least posted random crap.

Agreed 100%. CSL as scum Hydra with Vi lurked like a boss in AGM’s recent Nuke-Fest large theme.

--

MoI I think you're missing what would be the best reason for scum flying to a third wagon D1:

Meh, I do agree with that on some level. I guess it is all to some degree a WIFOM argument. I would like to focus on one part of what you wrote –

instinct says that a large part of why that went the way it did isn't the tech plan above but that scum positioned themselves in such a way that they COULDNT jump without it being hugely suspect.

Point fingers please … who would this be in your opinion?

--

Ellibereth exhibited similarly lackluster reasoning when wagoning people in [REDACTED], where he was scum.

When you get a game you can actually reference let me know. Until then why don’t you peruse Atomic Mafia and tell me what you think of his play there.

Color-coded the above list. Green in some degree of a null read, Red is anti-town, blue is some degree of a town read.

I highly doubt that the only Mafia scum on the wagon was Gandalf. Too big a wagon. If anything the Dekes / Empking / Esp group in your Nulls needs rope or bullets ASAP.

That said why isn’t Furc red since he claimed a Survivor role? That’s just as anti-Town as Feysal’s claim, IMO.

Perhaps I'm giving people too much credit to be able to decipher something so simple. Do you not think that Feysal and/or the other players in this game are smart enough to figure out that I think Gandalf needs to be vigged without me explicitly making the statement that you suggested previously?

Again you aren’t getting the point. Of course you have said you think Gandalf is scum. It’s very passive. Why should Feysal give it any credence when you aren’t pushing him in any way to comply with your read or face your wrath? You have no problem doing that as evidenced below –

Anyone who opts to stay on the Kanye wagon without giving a reasonable response to Spyrex's post will become the direct focal point of ire for the rest of the game until they are dead.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I already spent half the day trying to get Feysal lynched...what more do you want? Clearly it isn't going to happen today (you seem to agree that he should die as well), so I'm moving on to something more productive and then we're going to kill Feysal Day 3 when he fails to vig gandalf again.

[Mastermind of Sin]

EBWOP: Can get behind a WoW lynch if necessary before deadline. Not my favorite lynch, but I don't have a town read on them either. Would much rather pick off someone from the Kanye wagon.

[Furcolow]

What happened to the Dekes wagon? That was a promising wagon. The Wow wagon is only marginally better than the kanye one. I guess I can see where the Wow suspicions are coming from, but both read as town to me.

this post is scummy as shit, and makes me dislike the kanye wag

vote: vitaminr

[Furcolow]

MoI I can win with town, that's a big difference

[Wraith]

Hey, funny thing I just noticed while re-reading kanye's ISO:

i stand by lynching claimed third party

. its possible there is scum on the gandalf wagon because it is the "town thing to do" but i think it is more likely that scum are on the sidelines waiting to try and lynch someone off of the gandalf wagon. claimed third party can be saved for a nonscum lynch down the road, and if they can convert an early push on the third party into a town lynch, all the better. im still into a gandalf lynch, but ill take a look and see if any of these people jumping onto wagons off of that wagon look scum to me.

spyrex's play does seem odd, but i dont think its scum play.

The basis of his argument for lynching gandalf yesterday (overlooking the fact that gandalf was NOT third party but amnesiac). Not a peep about Feysal, though, after he DID claim third party.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Also, whoops, forgot to mark Furc red. That was just a typo. He's not high enough on my lynch list yet, but he's another good vig target after Gandalf.

[Wraith]

Also, whoops, forgot to mark Furc red. That was just a typo. He's not high enough on my lynch list yet, but he's another good vig target after Gandalf.

GANDALF

IS

NOT

SCUM

[Mastermind of Sin]

I have yet to see him do anything town. What makes you think he's town?

[VitaminR]

What happened to the Dekes wagon? That was a promising wagon. The Wow wagon is only marginally better than the kanye one. I guess I can see where the Wow suspicions are coming from, but both read as town to me.

this post is scummy as shit, and makes me dislike the kanye wag

vote: vitaminr

Please explain.

[Wraith]

I have yet to see him do anything town. What makes you think he's town?

I'm not certain he's town, just that he's not anti-town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

That's essentially the same thing. You're claiming that gandalf definitely has the interests of the town at heart. I don't care if that means he's town or a town-aligned third party. It makes no difference. I do not believe he has been exhibiting pro-town qualities, and you have still failed to explain why you think he has.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@MoI: Had a chance to read through Atomic, fair point there. Not so sure anymore that Ellibereth is scum in this game, but he is very certainly a terribly useless player regardless.

Unvote, Vote: Wraith

Option #2. For those who need a refresher, Wraith has failed to expand on his Kanye case since he started hounding him over very small reasons Day 1. If he was that convinced that Kanye was scum, he would have found more evidence to support his vote since then. It seems to me that he's just finding Kanye a convenient place to park his vote so he doesn't have to do much scumhunting.

[Wraith]

Dude, I outlined my suspicion of Kanye a long, long time ago. Like, D1 gandalf-wagon long time. If you want I will outline which posts I don't like and why right now:

(unless otherwise noted all quotes are Kanyeposts)

dear gandalf are you claiming a win con that is not the town win con?

please clarify!

yeah im into a gandalf lynch unless he can in some way explain how his win condition is pro town. theres no reason to leave claimed third party alive.

holding off on the vote until he explains it better at least.

This is back during the trollclaim part of D1, where not only was the trollclaim extremely obvious but it wasn't anti-town either, it was pretty much survivor with stupid, obviously non-mafia-mechanics-related attached.

Andy, my PM simply says that I do not know how I win. Hey Andy. Just because you don't know your wincon doesn't mean you should start playing like scum.

This is gandalf's serious explanation of his wincon.

you think its scummier to lynch someone you dont think has a protown win con than it is to express interest in lynching a vi???

really?

This is kanye's first post about gandalf after that. Apparently he either didn't read or is ignoring the fact that Gandalf is NOT third party, but is amnesiac. He continues to push this stupid, stupid wagon all day:

oh hey look at that, the claimed third party (but not really!) doesnt want to scum hunt. gut i like my vote where it is tyvm.

The game has progressed quite a bit since I first asked you this, but I still want to know the answer

if i had a strong scum read my vote would be on that person instead of gandalf.

The last post in particular came off to me as "Just gonna push the easy target wagon until town players come up with an easier wagon to jump on"

kat (feysal) wagon is bs, kanye wagon is bs

snm wouldnt be bad, nor would wow, but gandalf is still todays best lynch imho~

He fails to explain these views. Apparently kanye gets a free pass as to who he doesn't think is scum but I don't in MoS's eyes.

is the basis for this still the fact that i voted claimed third party and then did not back off when he said lol nm??

Once again, kanye apparently doesn't care enough to actually read the thread, because I'd been screaming my own reasons for being the kanye wagon all through D1, that being "You wagoned an obvious trollclaim, did not back off when it was obvious that he was not third party but instead amnesiac, and fail to actually scumhunt yourself beyond the easiest target."

unvote vote wow thanks for reminding me about that ludi.

Even though this isn't wagon it comes pretty much out of nowhere, the most interaction between the two being:

Why isn't KKB dead yet?

Spyrex is giving my partner and I bad vibes through his consistent flaunting of flavor over anything else and the fact that he supports Kanye. Scum would want to hunt third party as it would appear to be town to do so, why they both are so engaged in a Gandalf lynch is beyond me especially when it is quite clear that Gandalf will not be the lynch today.

MoI's Seraph post just shot him up to basically confirmed town in both of your eyes. Also, his post confirms that Andrius and Gandalf are likely telling the truth as not everything about their role is clear which makes a lynch on Gandalf even more unlikely and forced.

- Oversoul

you agree that lynching third party is pro-town and because of that it makes us scummy?

Which does not adequetely explain a scumread on WoW.

FEYSAL REPLACED KATSU WHO I DON'T THINK IS A RAGEQUITTER AS SCUM.

this.

Apparently this is why he thinks the Feysal-wagon is BS, explained by quoting someone else's reasoning you know, five days later.

v/la for the next two days
will read peregrine when i get back or from my phone if i have the opportunity.

actually that didnt take long to read

unvote vote peregrine

WHAT'S THAT? KANYE EMERGES FROM LURKING JUST IN TIME TO JUMP ON THE MOST POPULAR WAGON WITHOUT BOTHERING TO EXPLAIN WHY? WELL COLOR ME SURPRISED!

I am Gurthang, self-aligned, and I tried to kill Furcolow last night as he requested. I don't know why he survived.

WHAT'S THIS? CLAIMED THIRD PARTY AND KANYE DOESN'T EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE IT? WELL COLOR ME ACTUALLY SURPRISED!

COULD THIS MEAN KANYE ISN'T ACTUALLY READING THE THREAD? COLOR ME SURPRISED!

i can get behind wow.
vote wow

I know he's had a "suspicion" on WoW since yesterday, but he's never really explained.

Sorry, but this is where I draw the line between "lurker" and "lurker who appears to wagon, post fluff, not read the thread, and be generally unhelpful." That's where I see lurkerscum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Sooooooo you're saying that you think it's MORE likely for scum to not care about the game to the point that they don't read the thread very well and say stupid things than town?

[Will-o-wisp]

guys, kanye is a big boy. He can defend himself.

But seriously, let's get more votes on kanye. MoS, VitaminR, summarize the case against our hydra in your own words. Your Wraith vote is pretty weak imo.

[Mastermind of Sin]

guys, kanye is a big boy. He can defend himself.

Fallacy.

But seriously, let's get more votes on kanye. MoS, VitaminR, summarize the case against our hydra in your own words. Your Wraith vote is pretty weak imo.

Wrong.

[kanyeknowsbest]

wraith re: feysal vs. gandalf, gandalf claimed "lol idunno what my wincon is" and gave no explanation of how he could help town. feysal explained very clearly what his wincon is and can be pretty helpful to town! i hope you can work out why i would want to lynch one and not the other....

also i hope you dont expect me to reply to that wall when one of your arguments is that im not reading the thread.

im happy to lynch s&m and wow, and will put my vote on vitaminr if its to avoid no lynch in 14 hours.

[Andrius]

First a friendly information post –

AGM has officially claimed Scum Seraph in the QT. I confirm that Andy is pretty much accurately describing what is going on there (except for calling me patronizing … asking you to stop spamming isn’t being patronzing ).

So from now on I am going to ask Mina / Faraday to tell us whenever AGM / Thor are on the clock.

If ANYTHING remotely negative happens to you during the period that AGM / Thor is active you should immediately claim it in thread.

Things like being made a Miller, having any latent powers revoked (while not explaining said powers), or anything else that benefits scum.

This will help Town via the information and allow Mina and Faraday more freedom in choosing their moves if they have additional information about what AGM / Thor are doing.

Thank you for your attention.

And of course I can confirm anything this man says.
(Though you WERE patronizing.)

1.Treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

(You called me YOUNG PADAWAN. Unless you're trying to make fun of yourself being old (highly unlikely) then you're clearly pulling rank on the Baker.)

But I digress.
I'm currently trying to figure some stuff out in the Seraph QT, and I'll be around to vote-hop to secure a deadline lynch if the refuse from the D1 lynch doesn't happen.