Mini 1265: Wickedestjr's Mini Normal- Game Over

[FightingShadow]

What the hell? That was not my post. This was my post. Copy/paste fail.

This post is not a conclusive summary of everything. It's more like stream-of-consciousness style reactions as I read the thread. At the end, I will try to tie everything together to give you a general idea of where I think things stand.

To begin with, the first thing I noticed:

also, random lynches (and policy lynches especially) are bad, you rarely learn anything. More often than not, randomlynching hits a townie and is driven by scum + sheeptown who don't want to no-lynch.

Unless, of course, said scum is clumsy-herpin', in which case it's not random and scum gets lynched

This is oddly serious for the RVS, yet does not contain information specific to this game. Sounds like a newer player (more likely to come from scum, but with newbs it could also be town) trying to come right out of the gate with "helpful content," even though this isn't really all that helpful.

One of you and Tim are probably scum,

both your pushes on him seem really fucking forced.

Not to mention Uphill is 100% right, all you did was spit theory there. However Retro and I discussed it and Time <-> Kat interactions already make that pair very unlikely, I highly doubt they would both push this aggressively on the same person. So wha we have right now is

It's page two. Any push on page two, barring an awkward night start game, is going to sound pushed. Just like Katty Bard's above post, this feels like you are trying to make sure you're posting content, when it really doesn't contribute much. Since you are more experienced, though, this is a bigger scumtell for you. (New players can feel unneccessarily pressured to add contentless content regardless of alignment, as it's their first game and they want to do everything "right.")

VOTE: treznor for RVing after discussion had started and then immediately unvoting when timeeater called them out on it.

This point has merit.

It wasn't a random vote, I voted for el_simo because he's the only person I know here and there was no possibility of him being lynched at the time. I thought it was pretty clear that it was a flippant vote when I placed it and I stuck around to unvote later on to make sure the vote didn't lead to anything.

Semantics. Random and flippant, especially in a mafia context, effectively mean the same thing, and you've been around long enough to know this. This is sketchy.

I care.

Why? Because its indicative of someone trying to hard. And you can think what you want, thats my read. Naive was the wrong word, more like "inexperienced politician".

I know this is my playerslot, but this is terrible. It sounds like he's grasping at straws to give himself validation over a gut read. I'm naturally wordy. Does this mean that every post I make is "trying too hard?"

This. After a long-time inactive, I just completed a newbie game that moved nowhere near as quickly as this one is (el_simo can back that up... the pace was.. painful). I'm trying to keep up but having trouble sometimes

This had very little relevance to the quote it was attached to. You agreed that you "weren't reading" by saying that you were "having trouble keeping up." This feels like you were trying to get suspicion off of you by latching onto anything that could give you an excuse, while not actually reading the excuse. Feels like nervous scum behavior.

Hey, I resemble that remark! Seriously though, to this day I can't handle Day 1 very well. I've played probably 50-75 games through an email server, plus two games here and a couple in RL and I still just don't see how people pick things up Day 1. After Day 1 when you've got some interaction and voting patterns to go on makes a lot more sense to me. I guess in that respect I probably am a bit of a bad player

Calling yourself a bad player is a newbtell, honestly. But agreeing when someone else calls you a bad player? That seems sketchy, especially when taken with the above quote.

UNVOTE:

I've had a migraine all day, so this is going to be very brief and incomplete.

In the current climate, my vote is indeed terrible. My reasoning was that he just straight-up said, "I'm trying to get this person lynched." That doesn't translate into RvS OR generating discussion to me, so I didn't like it. And, as somebody already speculated (sorry, I forget who it was in my skim-through) at the time it was all I had. When I feel better, I'll read deeper into the game and provide a stronger defense than this.

Also, the hypothesis that I'm a semi-weak player but with SOME experience is correct. I've completed a whopping three games off-site and am currently in a fourth.

No thoughts on anyone else? This quote is only focused on yourself . . . which gives me a strong sense that you are motivated by self-preservation, rather than scumhunting.

-----------------------------------------------

Things got wordy there towards the end, and I gotta leave for school. The last page and a half or so I'll go back and read more carefully (I skimmed), but for now, VOTE: treznor. As outlined above, he's giving me a nervous/skittish scum read. My other cheif suspect, Katty Bard, has behavior that experience can somewhat explain.

[treznor]

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

[redtail896]

Redtail on the other hand is clearly sheeping, how ever he has the fortune that both Soben and Oddy have stronger reads than me, so his vote is actually the first. Funny though how he targets me for having no substance in my posting, when he hardly has any himself. Yonzy is guilty of this too. Lots of scummies go to both these players.

For the record, if I wanted to sheep, I would be voting Katty (since many players I consider townie have piled on her).

Re Katty: This:

No thoughts on anyone else? This quote is only focused on yourself . . . which gives me a strong sense that you are motivated by self-preservation, rather than scumhunting.

Is probably the best point against Katty that I've seen so far, but it's still not much. I still don't see it. I agree that she should post more content. I agree that the push on Uphill was a bit ridiculous. But neither of those are screaming scummy to me; they're screaming overwhelmed/newb townie.

Also: she gets scumpoints for unvoting, but she would also get scumpoints for keeping that vote. She was in a lose-lose situation; the people thinking she's scummy would see either action as scummy in that climate.

I do want to see her posts reads. I do want to see her participating more. But you guys have built this conviction that she's acting scummily out of basically nothing. A bunch of RVS stuff and an unvote?

[el simo]

What about her inconsistency? She unvotes calling it bad but then defends her actions. She IIoA's about one thing claiming it was relevant to why he is scum but then explains her vote as another?

[redtail896]

She unvoted calling it bad "in the current climate." The implication there is that she did not think it was bad at the time, thus she feels that a defense is warranted.

The IIoA and the later justification are really the same thing boiled down to one element: she didn't think that Uphill's vote was RVS. Once he said he was trying to get Soben lynched, she took that as a serious vote, and reacted accordingly. Now, you might think that she was dense for not realizing it was essentially and RVS vote, but if she didn't realize it, her actions make sense.

Reread Bionic's view of her behavior through the lens of an overwhelmed relative newbie.

[Odysseus]

As far as the bionicchop2/treznor battle (starts here), I agree that the treznor's vote took me by surprise because I really didn't get the feeling that he was a Katty-lynch supporter from previous posts. I now realize that he didn't read bionicchop's latest Katty post giving her the perspective of afraid town. I can follow why bio voted treznor but at the same time I disagree with him. trez did a good job of refuting his point and I'm interested to see what bio will do next after that post.

------

As far as Yonzy's reads go, I'm not sure where this would put on my scale. I really need to see him interact with the current content before I can get a real read on him. His redtail read raised my eyebrow because I have a hard time not seeing Soben or I as most town. After reading redtail's post, I wonder if he misread and if hey'll correct this in his next post. I also found it interesting that he had 5 scum reads when I'm pretty sure there are only 3 scum. I'm not sure if or how this would be alignment telling though.

------

When I ISO'd Screaming, I was feeling pretty confident that he was scum and Katty's partner. He did a good job answering my questions and I've yet to make a decision.

------

el simo; First of all the fact that you said you would analyze a case and then posted several times after only saying that you hadn't done it yet is a little scummy. I'm a bit baffled as to why you said that I hopped on your wagon when I specifically stated that you did something similar last game as town. Giving you a very weak scumread = hopping on the wagon? You seem to be basing a lot of your reads on other players based on what they've done about you and you need to take a step back and see that anyone would be wary of you based on your play before this post. With that said, your overreaction feels legitimate. As far as the rest of your post goes, I disagree with Time because of what I've already stated multiple times and I think that whole section of your post can be wrote off as he is just a really bad player. (If you read later than this, his replacement even agrees). I've liked what you've said about Katty here and I appreciate the compliment!
Also your hybrid comment reads as frustrated town and I completely understand. I would however like you to explain what parts I've seen town and what part of Slaxx's post made you feel otherwise. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I don't think I will ever hydra again because I feel like all it's doing is holding me back. I want to say what I read and how it makes me feel and I feel like all of the value from discussing reads with Slaxx can be gained by doing the same with the rest of the players inside the game...
el simo definitely got some town points here and I'd put him on a 6 or 7 on my scale atm.

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Now for what's really frustrating me. treznor STILL isn't reading.

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.
I don't know what to do about this because I still have a bit of a townread on trez but he is obviously not giving us real reads. simo, is this consistent with his meta? It's one thing to not have enough time to read but it's a whole different animal to post multiple times per page but be proven at mutliple times during the game to not be reading... I know this is harsh but trez, you either need to shape up or ask for replacement because we deserve better than what you've been giving.

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I'll get into el simo/redtail dicussion later.

[ScreamingHawk]

@Ody - I'm glad you pointed out trenzor's mistake at the bottom there. Seemed that had gone through unnoticed.

(I'm at work today which means I'll be busy this morning but in the afternoon there are literally no customers so will do that full ISO I promised yesterday.)

[Retrospective]

To make it even worse, he's currently voting Katty. So he hasn't even been reading his lynch target's post. I still think Katty is likley scum but there's too much doubt and this makes me feel really uneasy, so UNVOTE: Katty for now.

[Odysseus]

To make it even worse, he's currently voting Katty. So he hasn't even been reading his lynch target's post. I still think Katty is likley scum but there's too much doubt and this makes me feel really uneasy, so UNVOTE: Katty for now.

Fuck, I'm sorry. I posted on my actual account without realizing it. This was from me but just so it's in my own words UNVOTE: Katty

[bionicchop2]

trez did a good job of refuting his point and I'm interested to see what bio will do next after that post.

We have a different opinion of good job.

My issue is not that Trez shifted a little on the Katty read. We all adjust reads during play and they indicated they thought Katty was scummy.

The issue is that they initially presented that they didn't see IIoA as a scum tell since they admit to doing it as town. By nature that makes it a nulltell for them. Then the next post does a 180 and he states how he sees IIoA as a big scumtell (then again puts in parenthesis that they admit to doing it as town). Just by stating the logic doesn't make sense doesn't allow someone to ignore the fact the the logic doesn't make sense.

"X is always a scumtell except when I do it as town" is not something I view as an acceptable reason to vote somebody.

I mean, he even goes on to make an IIoA type post here:

FightingShadow, 2 points:
1) You'll need to bold your unvote if you want it to count.
2) Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature as then we can't tell what's going on, especially if I don't specifically remember that someone else said that already.

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above.

And then as you point out, he doesn't even recognize that this is one of the 7 posts from the person he is voting (and 1 of the 2 with any real content). This is the only post from Katty between his post #98 and his post #162. I could understand if it was somebody he wasn't voting for. I am not expecting memorization of the thread or scrutinizing every word, but this is the person he feels is the most scummy in the game.

[bionicchop2]

LOL. Classic case of me typing a post that takes 20 minutes because I am doing other stuff for work at the same time. Should have previewed and seen you already comment on the fact he didn't recognize it was the quote of someone he was voting.

[Katty Bard]

@el simo: So, explaining my reasoning, however bad it was = defending my vote? My vote was for what I percieved as Uphill trying to push a random lynch. And yes, I know this was poorly explained the first couple of times around. So let me try again.

At the beginning:
Uphill- *places vote*
Time- Why?
Uphill- I'm trying to get them lynched.
Me- Why are you trying to get them lynched? *vote*

Later:
"I voted for him because he looked like he was pushing a random lynch. Didn't like. However, now there's more to go on from more people, so I'll reread when I get a chance , and place a vote that actually has good reasoning."

And this is inconsistent how?

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bionicchop2-
iso #8: What made you feel that your vote for SH would provide more information than a vote for Timeater?
His isos (1, 2, 18) make good points against trez; I'll see how I feel about him after I go through his iso.
As well as DH (iso #12). I've seen bussing-comments from both town and mafia, so from my perspective the point is null. However, it is something to think about...if you want to call me out for that, you should call DH out for it too.
BC leans town.

DemonHybrid-
I somewhat understand where you're coming from on a me-town read, but your insistance on it doesn't exactly leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Iso # 3, 6: This stuck out to me as a tad jumpy. He changes votes in 3 from timeater to treznor (for RVing amidst serious discussion), and explains in the same post why timeater's 22 is bad. Then, in iso #6 says timeater's push on trez "doesn't look any more town." With a vote still on trez. Where's this jump in voting logic, DH? There's nothing about trez in these posts.
I realize he's on V/LA, so I'll pull this up when he gets back.
For now he gets a null-questionable.

el simo-
ISO #1: Yes, I just reread it and facepalmed.
Iso #8 is either a misrep or a misunderstanding. See the top of my post.
If you continue to push this point, I will view it as a misrep, as I cannot see how anyone can misunderstand my above explanation.
For now, though, I'll chalk it up to misunderstanding and we'll go from there. Null.

Gen_Wolf-
I need to see more from him to develop a read.

Odysseus-
Iso #4: The aggression -> townpoints for Uphill is a good point. It's also something that often trips me up, especially on D1. I tend to misread it as scummy. Now that I've made this mistake more than once and am getting burned by it, hopefully I'll learn. Iso #11 reenforces this.
Iso #5, Point 1: I didn't even think of it as sheeptown until I started reading ISOs. That makes more sense.
Iso #17: Do you not think self-meta is scummy?
Iso #19: At the point you posted this, DH had given not-scum reasons on me in (#34, #127)...although the join-date reasoning is NOT a good one).
I really like the time, detail, and thought you put into your posts.
For the record, I don't feel that faking double-voter is suspicious, and I never said anything because, well, I didn't think you actually WERE a double-voter xD
Odysseus reads town.

I'll finish my ISOs when I get back from work. I also apologize for lack of linkage; finding them will take more time than I currently have, and I wanted to put at least something out there.

[bionicchop2]

iso #8: What made you feel that your vote for SH would provide more information than a vote for Timeater?
His isos (1, 2, 18) make good points against trez; I'll see how I feel about him after I go through his iso.

Because people were discussing timeater, nobody was discussing SH.

I don't see where SH makes good points against treznor. He doesn't have 18 posts, so I don't know which isos you are referencing. Please directly quote what you felt was a good case at the time I switched my vote to SH.

[Odysseus]

I have a question for pretty much everyone: Why do you think trez isn't reading and which fucking alignment would do this?

I can't make any sense of it at all and it is driving me completely crazy. The surface level scum motive is pretty obvious in that he could already know everyone's alignment so he is just skimming and posting based on having more knowledge than the rest of us. And now that I think about it, after I've been pushing so hard on Katty he could now view it as a safe lynch... But at the same time, he has the second highest post count in this thread and I don't understand why he would allow himself to post so often knowing full well it wouldn't hold under scrutiny? I feel like as scum this would be suicide because he's basically screaming hey look, I don't know what I'm talking about and posting that over and over again. And why would he openly admit to not reading and just making an assumption from one of my post as scum? There's no way he could have thought town would have reacted in his favor from that type of post. Am I misreading his honestly and calm demeanor for towntells?
And the town perspective doesn't work either because why would a town player inject themselves into town discussion while throwing empty reads/responses in which he would have to know don't hold any water. He would just be stubbing all of our toes each time he posts.

I mentioned earlier that if Time/Katty are both town, I could see this kid being scum and I'm starting to backstep on my Katty scumread just because it feels like so long ago and I may have tunneled just a little bit... I think the scum perspective on her early game play makes more since than the town, but it's no longer strong enough for lynching material now we're half way through d1. I'm not getting much from her ISO reads other than I liked the fact she didn't trust DH for calling her town. But at the same time she says that I put a lot of thought, time and effort into my posts and the majority of them were calling her scum. Does this mean she agrees with me on them? Would self-incrimination tell apply here?

Katty: If you were in my position, would you have pushed on yourself as I did?


Someone else do some scumhunting, I feel broken.

[Uphill]

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above. Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.

Treznor specifically called Fighting's post a quote:

"Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature"

. eg, he recognized Fighting's post as a quote of Katty's and asked Fighting to use the quote tags to make it more clear where the quote begins and ends. How are you coming to the conclusion that he didn't recognize it as a quote? And seeing as how Fighting's botch is at the end of the page and the fixed version is on the next page, I'd bet all the money that Trez just didn't notice there was another page.

I'm doing a complete 180 on Katty here after reading 186. I just can't see that post being illegitimate. Katty is town.

Treznor is town. I don't buy the argument that he contradicted himself re: IIOA, and 165 is another good example of townposting.

Odysseus, Redtail, Soben, Yonzy all read town.

Bionic still reads scum.

el simo reads scum. The way he called my jump on Bionic good, without having mentioned Bionic anywhere else, comes off as phony appeasement.

If neither of those two are the lynch today I'd be okay with lynching GenWolf or ScreamingHawk, or to a lesser extent DemonHybrid or Fighting.

[ScreamingHawk]

bionicchop2 - Null-town. Has some valid points, and asks a lot of questions about other peoples play. Generally seem pro-town. Would like to see a list of your reads at some point.

DemonHybrid - Null. I hate to say this but I really can’t read anything from what you’ve posted. Most of it is quoting other people and disagreeing with whatever is in the post. I do agree with your #141 on timeater, though I think he is leaning scum.

el simo - Only one real post with info has been #171, understandable with exams, so will judge you over the coming weeks. Thought that post had some good info. Null-town

FightingShadow - Timeater left me wtf about this slot. But I like your read on the game so far. Null-town, more town if I ignore Timeater

Gen_Wolf - Has really done nothing. A promise to post in #144 but that was 2 days ago. Null-scum. Lurking/ breaking promises to post always seems scummy to me, as it’s definately not pro-town. (Aware I do this but still point stands)

Katty Bard - Null. Not much to say about this player at this time. I like her reads in #186. But that vote followed by unvote (saying it was bad in the first place) and then defending it? I don’t know.

Odysseus - I dislike hydras, they are hard to read. This being said I like the way you analysis from both perspectives in #160. I’ll give that a go later. You’re town in my book at this point. Great scumhunting so I’d keep you around. If Katty flipped scum I’d expect to be on the chopping block, but I really don’t see it at this point so sticking to the defense.

redtail896 - Hardly any content from you that is new to the conversations. A lot just seems to be repeated information from other peoples posts. I’d like to see some original thought out of you. I’m referring in particular to #177 and #179. Null-scum, because nothing particularly scummy, just lack of OC.

ScreamingHawk - TOWN

Soben - Sigh hydras... Constantly updating reads, and providing some decent chunks or well thought out information. Town but KMIOY hydras...

trenzor - Initial thing on el simomakes me think scum. Straight calling the Katty fight town-fighting in #44 without any reasoning also seems scummy. And then #51 saying is not a town read. Just a side note, his sign up date of 2004 is odd with his style of play up to this point. How much exp have you actually had here? Oh lots, #77. Still his play style seems very newbie. Strange. #98 - “I’d go along with Katty being scum if it wasn’t entirely based on [crap]”. (One meaningless post then) #162 - “I’ve gotten a scum vibe from Katty Bard for a while”. One of these was a lie. Changed mind based on Ody post. #193 - Admitts skimming Ody’s post as he goes back on the claim a bit, but keeps vote on (as does Ody). If trenzor is scum then Ody would be a pair. #166 is another claim to be newbie / learning, and after 50 / 75 games... I would expect different. Scummiest read.

Uphill - Curious where he has gone after the offensive start. Posted elsewhere but not here. Coming close to prod. 8 posts and 3 different votes. Each with very very weak claims. I’m starting to rethink my town read on you. Null-scum. And the more I read it the less I like it.

(Then saw new post)

Regarding post #189, the conclusion that BC and al simo are scum but then say you won't lynch them? And then say ok with a lynch on the players posting the least? The players that you didn't even make a comment about? After just saying "el simo reads scum. The way he called my jump on Bionic good, without having mentioned Bionic anywhere else, comes off as phony appeasement."? Scum

Yonzy - One massive analysis, and that’s it. A vote for DH with legitimate reasoning. Not too helpful but definately not on the scum list. Null

[Odysseus]

Because of those two points, I have no idea what you were actually trying to do or show in the post above. Number one is referring to this post where FightingShadow accidentally copied Katty's last post. FS even said at the top of his next post that he didn't mean to post it. I have three huge problems with this.
1) treznor didn't recongize this as Katty's and that was a couple pages ago meaning he wasn't reading then.
2) This post makes absolutely no since from either Time or Fighting's PoV and that should have struck trez as odd but the only thing he posted about it is that he didn't bold the unvote. Still not reading/not really looking?
3) He didn't read the second post closely enough to even see FS apologising for this miss-post.
4) trez's second point is absolutely horrid and it doesn't matter if a post is linked or not.

Treznor specifically called Fighting's post a quote:

"Please don't quote people without actually using the quote feature"

. eg, he recognized Fighting's post as a quote of Katty's and asked Fighting to use the quote tags to make it more clear where the quote begins and ends. How are you coming to the conclusion that he didn't recognize it as a quote? And seeing as how Fighting's botch is at the end of the page and the fixed version is on the next page, I'd bet all the money that Trez just didn't notice there was another page.

I'm doing a complete 180 on Katty here after reading 186. I just can't see that post being illegitimate. Katty is town.

Treznor is town. I don't buy the argument that he contradicted himself re: IIOA, and 165 is another good example of townposting.

Odysseus, Redtail, Soben, Yonzy all read town.

Bionic still reads scum.

el simo reads scum. The way he called my jump on Bionic good, without having mentioned Bionic anywhere else, comes off as phony appeasement.

If neither of those two are the lynch today I'd be okay with lynching GenWolf or ScreamingHawk, or to a lesser extent DemonHybrid or Fighting.

You're wrong, Uphill. FS used quotes for his big post but he didn't have the part that links to the post that the quote was taken from. That is what treznor was talking about when he asked to use the quote feature. I know this because there's no other way that his bolding the unvote comment makes sense otherwise. FS never unvoted, he only voted trez and the only time it looked even remotely like that was when he accidentally copied Katty's post. Further proof that he's not reading can be found by the fact that Katty's post was actually in FS's big post and trez still didn't notice.

[bionicchop2]

If neither of those two are the lynch today I'd be okay with lynching GenWolf

lol @ LAL

That humor aside, I would love to see you outline your reasons I am scum. I know a lot has happened in the 2 days since you posted, so take your time and make a clear case so others can agree or disagree with it.

[Odysseus]

SH, could you elaborate on the trez/me pair thing? I am completely baffled how you reached that conclusion.

More later, about to watch a movie with my gf

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 1.7:

Katty Bard - [3] - Soben, treznor, el simo
treznor - [3] - FightingShadow, ScreamingHawk, bionicchop2
el simo - [2] - Gen_Wolf, redtail896
ScreamingHawk - [1] - DemonHybrid
bionicchop2 - [1] - Uphill
DemonHybrid - [1] - Yonzy

Not Voting - [2] - Katty Bard, Odysseus

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[bionicchop2]

bionicchop2 - Null-town. Has some valid points, and asks a lot of questions about other peoples play. Generally seem pro-town. Would like to see a list of your reads at some point.

Eh. Don't know if those do much good. I think most people should cut their null tells from their lists. It just doesn't serve much of a purpose. If I haven't stated I see somebody as either scummy or town, then I don't have a good enough read on them to make it worth saying. I have stated my biggest town reads (odysseus and soben - though ody in the far lead for the way that they seem to be looking at things from all angles). My current biggest scum read is on treznor. Honestly still have you floating around there, though your posts have gotten better. Some of the stuff you say just strikes me as odd, but I haven't quite put a finger on what. I read your posts and seem to find myself making a squiggly face. Uphill is creeping up because I always get wary when somebody just points at me and says I am scum without a whole lot of elaboration. We'll see how they develop their case on me and I will re-evaluate then. If they don't develop one or say stuff I feel is twisting my words, they shift to scummy. If they make points I think are legitimate scum hunting efforts, they shift to town.

Odysseus - I dislike hydras, they are hard to read. This being said I like the way you analysis from both perspectives in #160. I’ll give that a go later. You’re town in my book at this point. Great scumhunting so I’d keep you around. If Katty flipped scum I’d expect to be on the chopping block, but I really don’t see it at this point so sticking to the defense.

This is a part that makes my face squiggly (I assume you mean you expect odysseus to be on the chopping block). I dislike players making associations prior to learning alignments. If/Then statements skew towards scummy for me, so I guess it is more scummy than just odd. You have worded in a way though that sounds like an if/then, but you are projecting it onto others, like others would put him on the chopping block. It disassociates yourself from the action.

ScreamingHawk - TOWN

squiggly face for self-inclusion

If trenzor is scum then Ody would be a pair.

Ahh there it is.

#166 is another claim to be newbie / learning, and after 50 / 75 games... I would expect different. Scummiest read.

It is a pretty quick check to find out their experience. I do have in the back of my head that my scum reads from him could be newbie reads, but I don't quite get the same feel as I did when checking on Katty. If you look though, he played 2 games on this site 5 years ago (you can see it an intro post in one of his newbie games). He has mafia experience though that seems more extensive than Katty, but the game does change depending on site/game medium.

the conclusion that BC and al simo are scum but then say you won't lynch them?

(in regards to Uphill) - Reread his post. You are misinterpreting what he said. He is voting me and has no objection to my lynch, but basically said if he can't get the lynch he wants he would be OK with those others.

[ScreamingHawk]

@BC2 - Yeah my reads can be obscure / terrible at times. I did mean Ody would be on the chopping block not me... Sigh. I add myself for completeness, plus it reminds me to read my own ISO as memory is aweful. Re Uphill: Ah I see. Thanks for that. What do you think about his selection of Ok lynches, who he doesn't comment on? Even after calling el simo scum after not have a case on his Ok call.

[el simo]

Reread Bionic's view of her behavior through the lens of an overwhelmed relative newbie.

I will do this.

el simo; First of all the fact that you said you would analyze a case and then posted several times after only saying that you hadn't done it yet is a little scummy.

I said I would when I got a chance, and then made you all aware that I wouldn't have time until the weekend.

I'm a bit baffled as to why you said that I hopped on your wagon when I specifically stated that you did something similar last game as town. Giving you a very weak scumread = hopping on the wagon? You seem to be basing a lot of your reads on other players based on what they've done about you and you need to take a step back and see that anyone would be wary of you based on your play before this post. With that said, your overreaction feels legitimate.

I struggle to see how town would target me for lack of content when I explicitly labelled myself as having LA. And it was only two reads based on that interaction and both those reads I said I didn't have enough to make any calls on them - so they were both incomplete reads. If they came across as an overreaction it was not what I intended. As for the bandwagon comment, this came after I had this got into a discussion with a newbie on how a bandwagon doesn't have to be referring to votes, but instead trends in ideas. Soon after making this post I recalled the comment and just labelled it as sheeping after reading an article. So if you would like to think of it in that light it might make more sense. I can link the game if you'd like.

As far as the rest of your post goes, I disagree with Time because of what I've already stated multiple times and I think that whole section of your post can be wrote off as he is just a really bad player. (If you read later than this, his replacement even agrees). I've liked what you've said about Katty here and I appreciate the compliment!

Now I need to get into a little bit of semantics here. Do you consider him a bad player or noob player? The implications of these words have a lot of impact on my view of him.

Also your hybrid comment reads as frustrated town and I completely understand. I would however like you to explain what parts I've seen town and what part of Slaxx's post made you feel otherwise. Also, if it makes you feel any better, I don't think I will ever hydra again because I feel like all it's doing is holding me back. I want to say what I read and how it makes me feel and I feel like all of the value from discussing reads with Slaxx can be gained by doing the same with the rest of the players inside the game...
el simo definitely got some town points here and I'd put him on a 6 or 7 on my scale atm.

Nothing specifically yet, but reading over you (Retro) gave me a very strong town read, where Slaxx I just got null. The fact that I am addressing you as Retro (as others have) and not as Oddy should make this a pretty clear point aye, I just don't think it's fair.

Now I hate to start defending someone based on their meta and what not, but in our last game I was endlessly frustrated with treznor for just ignoring whole posts I made (considering we were in lylo the feeling was exponential lol). So I'm still not seeing anything scum from him, but can certainly understand the frustration.

[el simo]

@el simo: So, explaining my reasoning, however bad it was = defending my vote?

Yes, especially when you post this.

When I feel better, I'll read deeper into the game and provide a stronger defense than this.

You

just

referred to what you said as your defence. This is yet

more

inconsistency.

My vote was for what I percieved as Uphill trying to push a random lynch. And yes, I know this was poorly explained the first couple of times around. So let me try again.

At the beginning:
Uphill- *places vote*
Time- Why?
Uphill- I'm trying to get them lynched.
Me- Why are you trying to get them lynched? *vote*

Later:
"I voted for him because he looked like he was pushing a random lynch. Didn't like. However, now there's more to go on from more people, so I'll reread when I get a chance , and place a vote that actually has good reasoning."

And this is inconsistent how?

If that is what you meant, why is that not what you said? You could have avoided all of this if you were that explicit originally. Now I disagree with you, that isn't what you said. But I can see how what you said implies that so I'll drop that point. If you hadn't tripped over on the defending issue I'd probably have unvoted you at this point, but now I have reason to keep it on you.

Reread Bionic's view of her behavior through the lens of an overwhelmed relative newbie.

Ok I have, but now you reread it through the lens of noobscum. Providing a back story doesn't do much for me, it's a biased read.

I have a question for pretty much everyone: Why do you think trez isn't reading and which fucking alignment would do this?

To answer this I would tell you to reread our last game together, but I don't expect anyone too as we both posted walls of flaming anger at each other trying to get each other lynched. But as town, he literally ignored posts I would make to rebut his arguments and hold his original arguments as true.

[Odysseus]

Slaxx here.

Lynch that one.

/points to SH

unvote, votes SH

.