Mini 1265: Wickedestjr's Mini Normal- Game Over

[treznor]

I see your points Uphill. I just have no problem at all believing that scum would say the things that you are saying are town-tells.

Votecount 1.10:

ScreamingHawk - [6] - DemonHybrid, Odysseus, Soben, bionicchop2, redtail896, treznor
treznor - [2] - FightingShadow, ScreamingHawk
Katty Bard - [1] - el simo
el simo - [1] - Gen_Wolf
bionicchop2 - [1] - Uphill
DemonHybrid - [1] - Yonzy

Not Voting - [1] - Katty Bard

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch or 7 to no-lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2011-11-09 11:01:07)

[bionicchop2]

Question for everyone: DH said he'd be back soon, don't you think we should wait for him to catch up and give some reads before we lynch SH? I'm not trying to deter from his lynch and I still support it. My DH is read so null and I'd like to have something from him pre-flip to judge him on. Obviously reads change after the flip and NK. So I'd like to get a better handle on where DH is now to compare to later. Also where is Gen?

If you think someone is scum (SH), I see no reason to wait for somebody on that wagon to express that they still want to be there. If you had doubts in your read or were considering voting elsewhere, then sure ask for opinions or something to reinforce your original read. Otherwise, proceed with those who care enough to be active IMO.

[FightingShadow]

I read #229, I just don't see what SH wrote in response to Soben's post actually addresses Soben's post. Reads to me as scum doing what they can to dance out of their inconsistencies (and doing a poor job doing it).

Could you explain this a bit more for me?

Sorry, I'm failing to understand this at all, how would you observations potentially affect a post that was made long before you replaced in? Also Scumhunter made that post because he was insistent and I am too that Trez is very likely town and wanted to kill any wagon that may occur on him at the time, I also fail to see what about the points you consider as 'weak' and the 'four points being the same thing' are addressing various posts of his leading towards him being likely town.

Not that specific post, but your viewpoints on Treznor. Mainly asking because the formatting of the defense bothered me. Bullet points one and two say the same thing, with point two mainly in more detail than in point one. Point 3 just adds an example post, and point 4 is a simple conclusion. The defense could have been written like this:

"Really, it comes down to his attitude. He is calm, and tries to communicate clearly, which is protown. I don't sense any nervousness or hidden intentions. His iso #7 is a good example of this. His openness is also protown."

Not only does all of this sound just like a gut read explained (which is fair), but the way it was written was in a redundant fashion, which smells of trying to make weak points look stronger just by the way they are presented.

I might be jumping at straws, but this sentence bothered me. It isn't early to call for a lynch, and why would you be so sure that we think you aren't?

I like to make my intentions clear, unless it is strategically beneficial for me not to (e.g., gambit.) There comes a point in the game where I may attack other people's defenses in order to get support for a lynch I firmly believe in. This is not that time yet. My question was from an angle of curiosity, and I wanted to make that clear.

[treznor]

I read #229, I just don't see what SH wrote in response to Soben's post actually addresses Soben's post. Reads to me as scum doing what they can to dance out of their inconsistencies (and doing a poor job doing it).

Could you explain this a bit more for me?

I don't see how his response actually addresses Soben's post (that he's replying to). It looks like scum dancing around trying to show that they are being responsive, but in the end I just don't see alot of actual explanation that ties to what Soben was asking.

[treznor]

Next post will address redtails #237. Hold up

Any this just looks like scum trying to delay a lynch vote... If we had waited 10, 15, 30 minutes, that's one thing. But it's been around 12 hours now...

[treznor]

Okay, closer to 10 hours... The point still stands.

[Odysseus]

Question for everyone: DH said he'd be back soon, don't you think we should wait for him to catch up and give some reads before we lynch SH? I'm not trying to deter from his lynch and I still support it. My DH is read so null and I'd like to have something from him pre-flip to judge him on. Obviously reads change after the flip and NK. So I'd like to get a better handle on where DH is now to compare to later. Also where is Gen?

If you think someone is scum (SH), I see no reason to wait for somebody on that wagon to express that they still want to be there. If you had doubts in your read or were considering voting elsewhere, then sure ask for opinions or something to reinforce your original read. Otherwise, proceed with those who care enough to be active IMO.

SH is getting lynched today unless something drastic happens. So I couldn't care less who is voting SH, I care WHY they are voting. DH is literally voting SH because he said flimsy analysis is his meta. You think that is lynch worthy? I sure as hell don't and that stands true to most people in this game because we didn't vote SH when he said it. And you honestly can't wait half a day to see what DH thinks of what's been happening before it's influenced by flips? I'm tempted to unvote just to spite you because this post annoyed me so much.

[Soben]

ScreamingHawk, Fighting and Timeater are one slot, they share one alignment, this is undeniable. I can completely understand reading one of their actions as scummy and the other as townie but that doesn't change the fact that in your reads list you stated you had two entirely different reads on the slot at the moment, you called them scum and called them town. Not just that but you stated you agreed with DH on Time being scum due to his reasons while stating the slot is currently a town-read of yours, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

Retrospective, I too rather deter the lynch just a little bit longer purely because there's a few reads I'm iffy on at the moment and would like a bit more time to strengthen them however there isn't any particular reason that Screaming shouldn't claim at this point because I don't see myself moving my vote any point soon.

Uphill, thanks, I can understand what you mean in regards to your Screaming town-read now but I disagree with it, mafia are often insistent that they aren't being scummy and that they haven't contradicted themselves thefore questioning peoples suspicion on you isn't a town-tell in the slightest.

FightingShadow, I'll let Scumhunter (The other head) repsond to why he explained it in bulletpoints since he made the post but I'll take a guess and state that it's generally how he likes elaborating into his reads. Regardless I'm not understanding what exactly you're attempting to get at here at all - We do still have a town-read on Trez and it isn't all revolving around those 4 bulletpoints.

[FightingShadow]

I don't see how his response actually addresses Soben's post (that he's replying to). It looks like scum dancing around trying to show that they are being responsive, but in the end I just don't see alot of actual explanation that ties to what Soben was asking.

Alright. Am I the only one who saw this?

Argh.. Let's see if I can explain these 'contradictions'.

DemonHybrid - Null.

I hate to say this but I really can’t read anything from what you’ve posted. Most of it is quoting other people and disagreeing with whatever is in the post.

I do agree with your #141 on timeater, though I think he is leaning scum.

FightingShadow - Timeater

left me wtf about this slot. But I like your read on the game so far.

Null-town

, more town if I ignore Timeater

This is so full of contradictions it isn't funny, he states that he agrees with DH and that he prestened something new in #141 about Timeater and thinks Timeater is scum but he can't read anything of DHs because he hasn't posted new content (????), he then stated he has a null-town read on FightingShadow/Timeaters slot.

Unvote, Vote: ScreamingHawk

DH hasn't posted new content: As far as I could see DH only really had content in #141.
I did think timeater was looking scum, but the ragequit left me wtf about his slot. Was probably just trying to stir something up. Since then FS has seemed very town, thus Null-town when takinn timeater into account, and more town when I ignore Timeater. What was the problem here again?

It's not the greatest reaction in the world, as it doesn't make sense from the perspective of a post giving conclusive reads on everything that had happeend up until that point in time, but this clearly addresses Soben's point.

[FightingShadow]

FightingShadow, I'll let Scumhunter (The other head) repsond to why he explained it in bulletpoints since he made the post but I'll take a guess and state that it's generally how he likes elaborating into his reads. Regardless I'm not understanding what exactly you're attempting to get at here at all - We do still have a town-read on Trez and it isn't all revolving around those 4 bulletpoints.

It just feels like a strange attempt to really protect Treznor, without the goods to back it up. Which is something to take note of after Treznor flips (if he is, in fact, scum).

[Soben]

FS, ya I word things funny. I fail at grammar/have a hard time clearly communicating my ideas as much as my partner here sometimes. You could call my post defending Treznor redundant, which it was, but I prefer to call it repetitive on purpose to emphasize how strongly I disliked the treznor wagon. Our #1 goal at that point was to get votes off Treznor because we saw him as town and him being lynched seemed somewhat possible at that point and we really didn't want that to happen. Yup, I was trying to make my points look as strong as possible. Is that a bad thing? Oh and yea, most of my reads are based on gut, where as R is all-logic, all the time.

[Soben]

Why do you find it strange to defend a town read who is in danger of being lynched? What "goods" are you referring to?

[bionicchop2]

SH is getting lynched today unless something drastic happens. So I couldn't care less who is voting SH, I care WHY they are voting. DH is literally voting SH because he said flimsy analysis is his meta. You think that is lynch worthy? I sure as hell don't and that stands true to most people in this game because we didn't vote SH when he said it. And you honestly can't wait half a day to see what DH thinks of what's been happening before it's influenced by flips? I'm tempted to unvote just to spite you because this post annoyed me so much.

Question the motive once you have gotten the result you wanted.

Here is my issue. You are voting somebody you think is scum (A). You start questioning somebody (B) voting that same person. Let's lay out a scenario where A is scum and B is town. The case against A is pretty solid and there are no current distractions. You question the motives of B and you create opportunity for that distraction (something drastic). Partners of A now have something they can logically cling to without looking too bad and they can do it after a jump off from somebody most have called very protown. You also run the risk of creating several pages of town/town fighting. It doesn't take a whole lot to derail a lynch vote. It takes even less when it is correct and there are players in the game looking for those opportunities.

Now the flip of that is A town, B scum. That would require you seeing a chance A is town and the wagon is wrong.

A town + B town - then either direction it goes is wrong.

A scum + B scum - either direction it goes is correct.

My theory since I have started playing again is that you should never question somebody on the same wagon as you unless you start to suspect your vote is on a town player. There are few advantages to pressing that person until you know the alignment of the lynch target. I am sure there will be disagreement on that point, but that is how I feel.

[Odysseus]

I'm asking for DH to give us his reads before this day ends, not asking for everyone to go dig through SH and try to prove him town. The scenario you laid out would never happen and you're completely ridiculous.

[Odysseus]

and you're being completely ridiculous.*

[bionicchop2]

YOu know what? For some reason I thought you were asking for DH to explain his read on SH. You were clearly asking for his general reads in your initial post. Your follow up post did imply you were suspect of DH's motivations (which is what my last post was mostly in response to), but that was after I had already misunderstood your initial post.

My rant does not apply to asking for general reads. I do stand by it for what it is though (not questioning votes that align with your own).

[treznor]

ScreamingHawk, Fighting and Timeater are one slot, they share one alignment, this is undeniable. I can completely understand reading one of their actions as scummy and the other as townie but that doesn't change the fact that in your reads list you stated you had two entirely different reads on the slot at the moment, you called them scum and called them town. Not just that but you stated you agreed with DH on Time being scum due to his reasons while stating the slot is currently a town-read of yours, none of this makes any sense whatsoever.

Wait, what? ScreamingHawk is definitely a different slot than FightingShadow and Timeater. Are you trying to say they are the same alignment (but still different slots)? That's still odd as I think I'm one of the few that are saying Timeater/FS are leaning scum for me (though moving towards town the more FS posts, at least for me).

[Soben]

It's directed to ScreamingHawk about FightingShadow/Timeater.

[treznor]

It's directed to ScreamingHawk about FightingShadow/Timeater.

Wow, basic reading comprehension fail. That makes alot more sense

[Odysseus]

Bio: I do suspect DH and I guess that came through more than I intended. The main reason I want his reads is because I think he's probably mafia but I need more to judge him on. Don't get me wrong though, I want the SH lynch to go through as well.

[DemonHybrid]

I'm on site, but I'm doing things and I'll be back later to post. From what I've skimmed, people are waiting on reads from me, but I haven't quite yet read everything since I left for the weekend.

[Gen_Wolf]

Ok, I do apologize of how unactive I have been! I usually am not that bad but have been on holiday and things got away from me a little!

So catching up i've read through it all, so if you want to ask me any questions referring to a specific situation, ask away, I thought it would be easier than me posting a super long essay.

So, until the questions come in I will post my reads for you:

1. bionicchop2 - Gives off a town vibe, def doing a lot of scum hunting asking a lot of valid questions in his early posts. I do wonder however as he did tunnel screaming from the get go but I def think Bio is town.

2. DemonHybrid - Unsure of Demon, has made 16 posts but quite a lot of them seem to be fluff. I see nothing of real substance but more just attempts to make himself/themselves look pro town by being involved. So if anything i'm getting null to weak town read

3. el simo - Seems town, giving off town vibes and making good analysis and getting involved in the game.

4. Gen_Wolf - "annoyingly inactive" - quoted but def pro town

5. Katty Bard - Katty at first seem super scum but I think it comes down to nervous 'first game jitters' for now i'm a little unsure and going to let her off the hook with a weak scum to null read but one to watch.

6. Odysseus - I'm feeling strong town vibe. Has such in depth analysis of players but also just good insight and leading town in a strong direction so they get my super town vote. However, if we start wagoning a lot of town I would reconsider as you might be leading town astray but strong town!

7. redtail896 - A little unsure on redtail. I think weak town but would like to see a few more posts (Yes i know, very hypocritical coming from me) but just a little more would be nice. but weak town for now.

8. ScreamingHawk - Meta, meta, meta... To much emphasize on meta and not enough on what is happening in THIS game. I think you dug your own grave here. Also what i'm unsure of is people have been telling you to claim for a while yet you keep ignoring it like if you carry on ignoring it then they will just move on to the next wagon. A pro town thing to do would of been to claim instantly allowing for them to know if they were making a mistake lynching a PR or not. However, I would of given you a scum read anyways even if you weren't on L-1. and Claim!

9. Soben - I would say town but not a strong town read, gives detailed info and asking questions but also seems a little fluffy at times. Also seems to be acting a little more like a commentator than a player at times which makes me a little suspicious. but town for now.

10. Timeater/FightingShadow - Unsure of this one really. Timeeater situation was a little weird but will give a null read for now really unsure. Confuzzled!

11. treznor - Getting a strong town read from Trez, feel like him and Ody are up there working the situation well (Lol, the two of them will prob turn out to be both scum ) but good play from him.

12. Uphill - Town read for Uphill. Again though, would like to see a little more (yes i know its very hypocritical) but just seems a little short at times.

13. Yonzy - I'm thinking scum here, very inactive and don't like the reads he gave as well they pretty much contradict mine which makes me scum maybe trying to throw people astray? ANyways scum for now.

There we go people, after a long wait and I do apologize.
Again I reiterate if you point me in a certain direction of a situation or pass happening of the game. Do. and do ask questions!

[treznor]

Not seeing a lot of movement here.

Two questions:
1) ScreamingHawk: You are at L-1. Time to claim! Your reticence to claim makes me think even more than you are scum.
2) For those that aren't currently voting for ScreamingHawk: Can you explain why? Are you reading SH as town and thus don't want to vote for him? Are you waiting for more discussion? Are you waiting for SH to come back and claim?

[bionicchop2]

It looks like SH posted in another game several times yesterday, but never followed up on the Redtail post they said they would make saturday. His next post needs to have a claim in it.

[ScreamingHawk]

Sorry guys I'm having internet issue. Other games were at the top of my recently posted list, so posted to them. CLAIM JAIL KEEPER.
I'm going to have to do reply later. Each page is taking ages to load and I have exam study to do today as well...