Mini 1266 - My iTunes Mafia - GAME OVER

[don_johnson]

I don't understand why Painted should have accepted his fate rather than lynch a possible power role because if he's town he knows he is and sees CG for example as possible/likely scum so he should argue that someone else should be lynched instead. What about the offchance that they are scum? (or do you know that they are town?)

i do not know who is town besides myself. that question is dumb. learn to play the game and you would understand this. a VT is a better mislynch than a doc or cop or watcher or tracker or mason, etc. if we are in a position such as what we were in, a smart VT is not going to set scum up to quicklynch

anyone

. that would be arrogant and egotistical and places your own needs above the needs of town. he is not a good enough player to be so brazen and he continues to dodge the question of "how much experience do you have?" which imo, means he either has little(and is therefore more likely VI) or is scum, because a good townie would not dodge that question. is there an offchance that pfod's read is correct and that CG is scum? maybe. but placing CG in a tie with IS means that he's placing two players in danger of a lynch over himself. what do you think the odds of both those players being scum are? do you think it is smarter to put two other players at risk than to roll over and take a lynch when you know 100% that you are not town power? its hugely irresponsible, and even moreso without claiming yourself to at least give the rest of us perspective as to the implications. but whatever. i feel like i'm talking to a wall with you guys.

[Internet Stranger]

DJ:
1) How is Painted playing horribly? How is he so detrimental to the town as you say?
2) And the whole newb things seems it could be a way to pretend that you're town- trying to come across as sincere townie perhaps?
3) By the way DJ, you did fail to mention your scum record, so you shouldn't be so mean to us newbs.

i have shown why pfod's play is horrible. if you agree with him, then you are inexperienced. it takes time to understand the

why

of certain adhered to standards. i don't think i can explain everything to you in one post. but a for instance: NO LYNCH ON DAY 1 IS BAD FOR TOWN. << this is a generally accepted principle as it allows scum the choice of who dies first. does a mislynch help scum on day 1? numbers wise, yes. but by generating a mislynch scum may have to expose themselves to good scumhunters, town pr's, etc. a no lynch leaves no information. it allows scum to pick their nk and play day 2 on sheer wifom principles if they want. it places town in a much more difficult situation than a mislynch on a vanilla townie. seriously, browse the discussion forums for more info, and if you find anything to the contrary, feel free to start your own discussion thread and pm me so we can talk out of game regarding basic strategies. pfod, also did not claim his role when his lynch was imminent(or so he thought). this is also generally accepted as bad for town. no, he wasn't at L-1, but he understood the rules enough to say that he thought he was being lynched. by placing someone else(at random i might add, unless there was a case on CG) in danger ofr being lynched, he sets up scum to quick lynch a possibile power role. it was poor play. as a vanilla townie he should have fought tooth and nail(which i think he did), but should have ultimately accepted his fate on the offchance that IS or CG were power roles.(i think those were the two who were going to be placed at L-tie.) any scum could have swept in with the "lynch is better than no lynch" strategy which is generally accepted thought, and nailed either one of those players stuck in a tie if they were town. they also could have bussed their vanilla partner for uber town cred if they were scum. the move was simply anti-town as most of the possible outcomes imo wwould be more beneficial to the scum team than to the town. but seriously, this stuff belongs in a discussion thread.

2) sure, you could see it that way, but in this game, at some point you have to start thinking for yourself. do you think thats what that statement was, or do you think it is an outcome of the general frustration i am experiencing in this game?

3) there is no motivation for me to mention my scum record whether i am town or scum. why would i mention it as scum? why would i mention it as town. the answer to both of those questions is : it makes no sense to mention it. i post it for my own record and rarely use it for anything but. i believe i was lynched on day 1 as a VT when trying to build a rational case based on my numbers to show that someone else was probably scum, but i don't remember which game so i don't think i can link. the record is there for all to see anyway. a 75% win ratio as scum is pretty average imo. it is my town record which i am proud of. if you want to meta me, feel free. generally when i am town, i am lauded as obvtown and especially recently when i have been on a pretty good streak. i don't always win(as evidenced by my record) but i would say that if you took ouit the first year of my career on this site and maybe the first six months of my second, i would probably have a winning record. it is my opinion that anyone can play scum, but that experience is helpful for townies. it is only through many experiences that one can learn how to differentiate between town and scum play. my cases against pfod and IS have been largely based on their use of "smokescreens" to cover up their actual content and play. and like i said, pfod comes across a bit more genuine(which is why i attribute the newb title to him) whereas IS seems much more calculated in his effort to discredit me through underhanded means. i have repeatedly pointed to his statements about "muiltiple lies" and a "contradiction" and he has avoided addressing those for almost ten pages now. and he won't address them, because he knows he inflated the numbers of my "offenses" to make his case stronger. he is just more experienced and therefore more likely to be scum than bad town imo.

slan: DW has a good point. if you are willing to compromise on IS, why aren't you moving your vote there? and what happened to fennin? did we miss a post?

Deas is right. DJ is completely patronizing the town. As if he was older brother DJ that will kick your ass if you dont listen to him. DJ is saying that Painted didnt play the way he does, as if somehow DJ represents the standard that all must play as or else they shall be branded as heretic scum. Sounds just like the Inquisition, which now that I mention it, seems to be what DJ is desperately trying to employ here.

Whether Painted claimed or not or whatever conspiracy theory scenarios DJ wants to come up with are irrelevant.

So essentially the entire basis of voting for me is that I dont want to get into a PBPA war with you? When has anyone ever seen me one of those silly posts? They are lame and they allow facts to get lost in the shuffle.

I LOVE #2, where DJ forcibly tells Deas to think for himself, but only as long as you agree with DJ. The next paragraph of his totally demeans his second statement. Doubletalk much there, DJ?

ok. i didn't realize CG replaced fennin.

slan: why not IS? with me, you, no ramp, and guttersnipe thats four. should be enough to at least place IS in the lead in case this goes south. DW isn't gathering any steam.

Is this not PRECISELY the kind of behavior that im talking about?!? DJ swears up and down that he isnt some sort of dictator, yet here he is rallying his troops into action. DJ needs to go, this is scummy type behavior and it isnt healthy for the town. If any of Noramp, DJ, Gutter and now Slan (Apparently DJ's army) are scum, they can easily hide behind all the bravado and aggressiveness. The town will never stand a chance being all factioned out like this.

At this point Deas is all tongue-in-cheek with the distancing to DJ now and DJ just continues to ignore Deas, so im just going to park my vote on DJ now.

Unvote: Deas
Vote DJ

PEDIT:

Hey DJ, are you saying that Painted should commit lynch suicide for the good of the town?

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: IS

Hey slandaar changes his vote again

What a shock

We've had OMG fennin is scum everyone get him! OMG delta is scum everyone get him! OMG sken is scum everyone get him! OMG now IS!!!

Oops thats four people lol

[Skenvoy]

It's almost as if the town's been rent in two. On one side, there's Slandaar, DJ and DV, on the other there's IS, Painted and DW. With a whole bunch of lurkers who don't really fit anywhere.

I have to say that the second side makes more sense to me, but I'm not convinced anyone's scum.

And I don't care if I'm sitting on my vote, I'm not changing it, because CG isn't any better than Fennin. I'd far prefer a CG lynch to anyone on the two teams.

[DeasVail]

It's Wagon Time!!!

UNVOTE: DeltaWave

VOTE: don_johnson

So who do you actually think is scum? (as opposed to who you think should be lynched)

In case anyone is missing it, this is totally bussing.

[DeasVail]

Skenvoy: I thought you were convinced that Fennin was scum. Or was that just part of your scum tactic?

[Skenvoy]

*blink* I am. Why do you think I'm not?

[DeasVail]

I'm not convinced anyone's scum

.

I really don't know to be honest...

[don_johnson]

Deas is right. DJ is completely patronizing the town. As if he was older brother DJ that will kick your ass if you dont listen to him. DJ is saying that Painted didnt play the way he does, as if somehow DJ represents the standard that all must play as or else they shall be branded as heretic scum. Sounds just like the Inquisition, which now that I mention it, seems to be what DJ is desperately trying to employ here.

^^ fearmongering and ad hom.

Whether Painted claimed or not or whatever conspiracy theory scenarios DJ wants to come up with are irrelevant.

of course, pfod's play is irrelevant. that makes perfect sense.[/sarcasm]

So essentially the entire basis of voting for me is that I dont want to get into a PBPA war with you? When has anyone ever seen me one of those silly posts? They are lame and they allow facts to get lost in the shuffle.

no. the basis of voting you is far greater. you are choosing to ignore it. thats fine.

I LOVE #2, where DJ forcibly tells Deas to think for himself, but only as long as you agree with DJ. The next paragraph of his totally demeans his second statement. Doubletalk much there, DJ?

please explain. this is a bit non-sequitur to me. deas needs to think for himself, but that doesn't mean he should ignore general accepted theory. IS, do you think no lynch is good on day 1?

ok. i didn't realize CG replaced fennin.

slan: why not IS? with me, you, no ramp, and guttersnipe thats four. should be enough to at least place IS in the lead in case this goes south. DW isn't gathering any steam.

Is this not PRECISELY the kind of behavior that im talking about?!? DJ swears up and down that he isnt some sort of dictator, yet here he is rallying his troops into action. DJ needs to go, this is scummy type behavior and it isnt healthy for the town. If any of Noramp, DJ, Gutter and now Slan (Apparently DJ's army) are scum, they can easily hide behind all the bravado and aggressiveness. The town will never stand a chance being all factioned out like this.

^^ more fear mongering. IS seems distressed that players want to work together.

At this point Deas is all tongue-in-cheek with the distancing to DJ now and DJ just continues to ignore Deas, so im just going to park my vote on DJ now.

i just addressed a rather long post to Deas. how is that "ignoring"? let me know if you have any specific questions you would like answered.

Hey DJ, are you saying that Painted should commit lynch suicide for the good of the town?

nope. thats not what i said at all.

[DeasVail]

DJ, the problem I see is that you're sticking to the whole "no lynch is bad" thing without actually considering the situation.

Place yourself in Painted's situation assuming that he's town. He doesn't want a mislynch so thinks that a no lynch would be better, failing to consider the likelihood of him being lynched anyway the next day, with nothing but night-kill WIFOM to ponder.

This doesn't make Painted a horrible player that must be lynched, yet it's all you're focusing on. How is he?

[Skenvoy]

Ah. I was talking about the two 'teams' when I said that (which have just been broken up by you...not sure what to think about that...)

[DeasVail]

Why didn't you put CG/Fennin on the first "side"?

And what you can think now is that separating groups of players into teams is pointless.

[Skenvoy]

Lolwhat? I wasn't saying "This group of people are scum, and this group are town", I was saying "This group of people keep going head to head with this group". Learn to read, please. I'm tired of you constantly misrepping me.

[don_johnson]

dv: October 07, 2011
sken: October 18, 2011
dw: August 31, 2011
pfod: November 02, 2011

^^ these four seem to think this guy:

IS: April 07, 2002

is town. yet IS has not presented a case, has spent the entire time he's bothered to grace us with his presence launching fear mongering and ad hom attacks. made one point about DV changing his playstyle while ignoring the context of when that change of playstyle occurred, and has failed to respond to arguments brought against him, and has failed to provide any supporting evidence for claims he has made.

slan: August 03, 2011
noramp: May 12, 2009
gutter: October 25, 2011

^^ these three seem to jive with what this guy:

don_johnson December 04, 2008

is laying down. so atm, it looks like common sense is outnumbered.

mod: can we get a current votecount and playerlist? any chance you can nix the () for previous votes so its a bit less to look at? players who want to use VCA can always go back and get that info themselves. thanks.

DJ, the problem I see is that you're sticking to the whole "no lynch is bad" thing without actually considering the situation.

Place yourself in Painted's situation assuming that he's town. He doesn't want a mislynch so thinks that a no lynch would be better, failing to consider the likelihood of him being lynched anyway the next day, with nothing but night-kill WIFOM to ponder.

i agree that a complete newb would think that way. which is why my vote is not on pfod atm and pfod has never really been my top choice. his play screams newb/VI. i have well documented how i feel about him. just because you(a newb) agree with his stance does not give it any logical credence. lets pretend that CG is doc. now VT pfod places docCG in danger of being quicklynched without being able to claim his role or defend himself. does that sound like a good plan? sure, it would be great if CG was scum, but pfod (if hes VT) has no way of knowing that, and his experience level would dictate that his reads are probably not awesome. do you think pfod is the best scumhunter to ever play the game? seriously. you even place the word "failing" in your post. which is correct. pfod "failed" to recognize the implications of his actions. which supports the VI/newb theory. which strengthens that my read on him is correct. which should(but for some reason isn't) help convince you that i am making sense here.

This doesn't make Painted a horrible player that must be lynched, yet it's all you're focusing on. How is he?

try to keep up, junior. we are lynching IS. not pfod. reading is tech.

[don_johnson]

the part about IS ignoring "context" does not have to do with his point about "dv changing his playstyle when called out", but with IS completely ignoring the first ten pages of the game in his analysis. IS repeatedly states he doesn't want to get into pbpa and quote wall type posts. so make of it what you will.

[don_johnson]

dv: pfod does not need to be lynched for "terrible play". but i would much rather lynch the guy using bad logic, newbie strategy, and getting in bed with scummy players like IS, than the players who understand basic mafia theory, notice similar things i notice, and are cooperative. if IS is town, i would be very surprised. especially since he's been around so long. most older players don't act that way, in fact, IS is the only one i've played with recently that has based his entire platform on tunneling, ad hom, and fear mongering.

[DeasVail]

DJ, the way I see it, there are a number of different aspects of mafia in which one may be skilled at. Being unskilled in one does not make someone unskilled in another, which is what you are suggesting is the case with Painted. How are we supposed to know his reads aren't correct?

Also, you seem to think I'm town. Why is this?

Also, I suspect Painted more than IS.

Uh, Skenvoy how am I misrepping you? If you're referring to me saying "teams", I could've said "sides". What's the difference? And you used "team" in your post anyway.

PEdit, you're reducing people to their play-styles, not whether they're likely to be scum or not in this game. I can see where IS is coming from regarding you. "Notice similar things I notice"? "cooperative" So if you're town, whether we win or not should be entirely dependent on whether you are right or wrong?

[DeasVail]

Just to everyone: I still really think Skenvoy is scum, so could we please lynch her?

[Skenvoy]

Dude, you're not even voting me! If you want a lynch, at least back it up with a vote.

[DeasVail]

Well, if you want me to....

UNVOTE: don_johnson

VOTE: Skenvoy

[don_johnson]

DJ, the way I see it, there are a number of different aspects of mafia in which one may be skilled at. Being unskilled in one does not make someone unskilled in another, which is what you are suggesting is the case with Painted. How are we supposed to know his reads aren't correct?

i know for a fact that one of his reads are wrong. i am not suggesting that because he is unskilled in one area, that he is unskilled in another. i am stating that skill in the game of mafia generally comes from experience. its a game of cunning, mathematics, and interpersonal communications. all things which one gets better at with experience. to be innately skilled in all three is rather rare imo. if you think his reads are correct then go with them. your questions seem to be circular. at some point you have to take a stand. if you agree with pfod, then there's not much more i can do.

Also, you seem to think I'm town. Why is this?

meh. i treat people with respect. you could easily be scum with IS. am i tossing a few insults at pfod? yes, but if you read my posts you will find that i both ask and answer questions. if you spend your entire game paranoid of everyone at every time, you will never be a good scumhunter. lynches take teamwork as this thread is living proof. we've been rattling on for 35 pages and have yet to come to a consensus on a day 1 lynch. there is little teamwork going on.

Also, I suspect Painted more than IS.

^^ explain please. you seem to be defending pfod. am i mistaken? am i your top suspect? if so, how do you justify your suspects being on basically opposite sides of today's fence.

PEdit, you're reducing people to their play-styles, not whether they're likely to be scum or not in this game. I can see where IS is coming from regarding you. "Notice similar things I notice"? "cooperative" So if you're town, whether we win or not should be entirely dependent on whether you are right or wrong?

actually, i'm voting who i think is most likely scum. and no, whether we win or not should depend oentirely on if i'm wrong. you ignoring the dynamic aspect of mafia. lynches, nk's, night actions, etc. can all change players reads. if we lynch IS and he flips town, then i have to accept i was wrong and move on. i'm not asking you to sheep me the entire game. lynches require teamwork. i find the towns i win with are more cooperative than the towns i lose with. and i find that one of scum's strategies is often to sow confusion and work against large groups of players cooperating. if you choose not to benefit from my experience, then so be it. bandwagons occur as a result of town working together and scum attempting to manipulate lynch choices. once you have a flip and a round of night actions, you have much information to sift through to find scum(or more scum if your first lynch is correct or you have a good vig). if you don't want to work with me, then there is not much more i can do. you need to look at players actions and then make sense as to why that player(as scum) would do what they are doing. IS using fear mongering and ad hom to discredit a player who is accusing him of being scum, rather than actually responding to the case against him or bolstering his own cases with evidence, makes sense from a scum perspective. why would a town player do that?

[don_johnson]

ebwop: "and no, whether we win or not should depend oentirely on if i'm wrong"

should read : and no, whether we win or not should not entirely depend on if i'm right or wrong.

[DeasVail]

Why would a town player do that? If they know they're town they may not think they should respond to the case against them and often you think someone is scum not because of concrete evidence.

At the moment, I still think that Skenvoy is scum, Delta would be my 2nd suspect.

For me, IS is null-town, while you and Painted are null-leaning scum.

[DeasVail]

Mod: Could we have an update of when the deadline is (if it hasn't already passed)

DJ, unless I'm mistaken, you're still voting Painted. Just thought I'd let you know since your posts gave me the impression that you thought you were voting IS.

[evilpacman18]

mod: can we get a current votecount and playerlist? any chance you can nix the () for previous votes so its a bit less to look at? players who want to use VCA can always go back and get that info themselves. thanks.

Yes to the first request. No to the second.
Deadline updates will come along with votecounts, as it is during the originally allotted time of the day phase.