Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Malee (4) - 4nxi3ty, Alicewondering, fishythefish, Vincent2128
Sleepless Assassin (2) - Lastsurvivor, kortul
fishythefish (1) - Sleepless Assassin
rhinox (1) - hiplop
nachomamma8 (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro
4nxi3ty (1) - rhinox

Not Voting (3) - nachomamma8, funkybike1, Malee

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is April 4th, 7PM PST

[Sleepless Assassin]

Rhinox, not necessarily. When scum lay down a vote, regardless of the intent behind it, and they are pressured for the vote, it is very common for them to go "oh shit, you're right. Silly me, unvote". As for scum making cases sound more logical, it depends oon the player. Some will do exactly what you are talking about. Some have trouble finding anything to talk about because they find it hard to "scumhunt" when they already know who is scum it all depends on the player. I think this has potential to become too much of a theory discussion though.

Is anyone else unimpressed with bike's "reads"?

Fish, scummy things, not just "things". Otherwise my vote would probably have to be considered random and I don't random vote.

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma8 - controversial read. He is an experienced player, seems calm and confident, yet is flowing with a tide, mostly answering questions, with an occasional relevant question of his own. Not a single vote, even during RVS - those who know him, is it his usual playing style?

This isn't my usual playstyle, no.

Malee didn't seem genuine with the over reaction to one thing (nacho) and lack of much else.

Personally, I think that Malee's reaction to nacho was an attempt to gain town credits from me.

Vincent's almost certainly town for this post. It's a good dose of egocentricity/tinfoil hats that I doubt scum would fake even if they could.

To me, it looks like this wagon on Malee is sort of forced; there is no relevant reason for her to be scum more than anyone else. LS's argument is based on pandering, which I find not to be a valid scumtell Day 1. However, I respect other people's opinions, and if this behavior continues from Malee, it will be very hard to dig out of the hole she created for herself.

Mmmm...
You find the wagon shitty, but you're not really taking an active hand in stopping it... Sounds like you're lining up for the "I told you so".

Nachomamma is scum. I can't see any other possibility.

Not Voting (4) - nachomamma8, funkybike1, vincent2128, Malee

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch

If you have a suspicion that strong, why not act on it?
It seems scummy as hell to me that you have some magically strong scumread that, for some reason, doesn't come with an explanation or a vote.

Vote: funkybike

[Nachomamma8]

"When you're defending yourself, what other objectives should you have?"

None.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Nacho, any reason for the change in playstyle? When did you decide to do it?

[Vincent2128]

Lots of faint townreads on people who feel genuine, which is nice. LS, SA, hiplop and Rhinox are in this category. I don't have any scumreads atm, but I'll spend some time on the game and try to cobble one together tomorrow.

What do you see from them that gives you a faint townread?

Also, Funky, you left out a few people in your reads list. Was that intentional? What are your thoughts on Sleepless Assassin?

Is anyone else unimpressed with bike's "reads"?

Yes. No comment on anything else really in the game, and they're pretty much what has already been said.

Nachomamma is scum. I can't see any other possibility.

Not Voting (4) - nachomamma8, funkybike1, vincent2128, Malee

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch

If you have a suspicion that strong, why not act on it?
It seems scummy as hell to me that you have some magically strong scumread that, for some reason, doesn't come with an explanation or a vote.

This rings so true.

Also I've noted how Rhinox began pushing on hiplop after I noted what hiplop did in voting him (#135).

[Fishythefish]

@Vincent: I just feel they believe what they say, and that they are trying to catch scum. For the second part, particularly SA and LS - those reads are stronger than Rhinox and hiplop.

@SA: what's scummy about changing your mind? About agreeing with someone else's point?

@funkybike:

Rhinox

has changed his behavior from previous games quite a bit, he's played here like a decent townie.

What did you mean by this? How has Rhinox changed his behaviour?

@Malee: In 78, you said:

Just because there's a small number of posts doesn't mean that you should put down a serious vote if you don't believe there's scum intent. I also foresee myself speaking with every member of the playlist that posts, so it probably would've been better if my discussion with you didn't start with suspicion, don't you think?

But you never said, was your Vincent vote a serious vote? It just seemed very odd, even for a RVS. I'm not suspicious and I don't read you as scum per se due to that vote, it was just an awkward moment, and it doesn't sit with me.

Here, it doesn't sound like you have a scumread on Nacho for the vote on Vincent. Did you have a scumread on Nacho at all? Why were you voting him?

nacho...didn't vote vincent?? (now who's not paying attention )

I admit, I'm confused :p

That makes it a null case UNVOTE:

This post implies that at some point your case wasn't null, but that Nacho never voting Vincent made it null. What I want to know is:
- When did you think Nacho was scummy (even slightly), and why?
- Why did this change when you discovered Nacho didn't vote Vincent? To me, it looked like your point on Nacho was for "skimming", which made him wrongly think Vincent hadn't voted.
At the moment, 83 looks to me like scum caught in an argument they aren't enjoying and hoping they can get out of it by dropping their suspicions.

(Nothing in the above on Malee is new, but I'm putting it together so she can answer better and so my thoughts are clearer).

[Sleepless Assassin]

[Vince, I was more concerned with the fact that if he called half of those names either town or scum in his next post, it wouldn't be a contradiction.

Fish, in detail, what made you change your mind about rhinox? And about malee, while people don't buy bandwagoning as a scumtell these days, it's still a valid scum tendency in my experience.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, any reason for the change in playstyle? When did you decide to do it?

I like to keep early game fresh. Decided to do it at the beginning of the game.

[4nxi3ty]

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first i a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

making a good point or agreeing with a mediocre point doesn't indicate much in terms of alighnment; though I do agree that Rhinox has been playing a reactive game instead of proactive. Still haven't seen anything from Malee that makes me want to change my vote.

[Lastsurvivor]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malee

L-2.

SA's not looking too bad to me anymore. Malee, on the other hand, is just a mess whenever she appears. The thing that bothers me the most is the pandering. I know I defended her because she played like this in another game, but she never pandered even when she was under fire. I feel like she just saw that in some "how 2 be gud scum" article and copied it.

He's vouching for her in a way that doesn't exactly feel genuine to me.

Why doesn't it feel genuine?

Nacho's stuff on Funky is definitely nice. And, no, I don't really like his reads. Especially don't like the fact that they don't include everyone.

@Vinc: Why did you quote me in your post?

[Fishythefish]

[Vince, I was more concerned with the fact that if he called half of those names either town or scum in his next post, it wouldn't be a contradiction.

Fish, in detail, what made you change your mind about rhinox? And about malee, while people don't buy bandwagoning as a scumtell these days, it's still a valid scum tendency in my experience.

I thought Rhinox was scummy initially for something that doesn't seem to be a scumtell for him, and then for trying to put me off by making me want him to think me town. That still doesn't sit comfortably with me, but I really liked his response to LS. Rhinox is a decent arguer, and his early game spat with LS was going well - I felt he was looking more convincing, and that that was probably going to be true regardless of alignment. But in 54, he didn't press the matter with LS, instead backing off and said he didn't want to spur on town-on-town arguments. That for me was a very pro-town sentiment, and one I don't think scum would be likely to fake - I felt that Rhinox could have more easily got out of that situation looking good by escalating things with LS.

Is that clear?

On BWing - scum do it, town do it, and if it's a scumtell at all it's a weak one. If I see somebody making a good point, and I don't have anything better to go, I'm going to jump on it. If nobody sheeps, it's pretty difficult to get a scum lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first i a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

making a good point or agreeing with a mediocre point doesn't indicate much in terms of alighnment; though I do agree that Rhinox has been playing a reactive game instead of proactive. Still haven't seen anything from Malee that makes me want to change my vote.

You're looking in the wrong place.
It's powerlynching time, and you can still grab your spot before it becomes mainstream!

[4nxi3ty]

alright give me a sec to work through some stuff about malee, funkybike, rhinox, and the malee wagon.

the funkybike wagon will probably stay an underground movement for at least one page.

[kortul]

Nachomamma8

gave an explanation for his unusual start, and i like his point about Vincent2128 in post 152, so he is now neutral for me.

Sleepless Assassin

actually gave explanations for his case about Fishythefish, and started to question him. On the other hand it may be just a safe parking place, since while Malee is also on his scum list, he doesn't question her. Therefore he is now neutral, leaning scum for me.

funkybike1

- questionable appearance after the questionable absence. He gave a bunch of town reads (that is always scummy in my eyes on Day 1, from RL games experience), one scum read (with no vote) and i don't really understand this part:

However, I respect other people's opinions,

and if this behavior continues from Malee, it will be very hard to dig out of the hole she created for herself.

I don't see a connection between the bolded part and the rest of the sentence.

funkybike1

is now leaning scum for me.

Between

funkybike1

and

Malee

, i am going to vote funkybike1. I don't want to put Malee at L-1 right now and risk a quickhammer, losing the rest of the Day 1. And i am still interested in her reads and thoughts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike1

funkybike1, can you elaborate on your reads and explain why don't you vote for one of your scum reads?

[Lastsurvivor]

Hm.

Malee, I want a reads list from you. On every player. Looking through your ISO, I cannot tell what you think about a majority of the players.

Feel free to format it however you like, but your thoughts on every single player must be there. If you think nothing about a player, say why.

[Alicewondering]

Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever.

Also, I don't understand why SA was suspicious earlier to some people. I like post 151's reasoning, though it does seem a little hesitant to express strong opinions, not a scumtell by itself by any means though.

[Malee]

I'm really sorry but I don't have enough time to spend on Mafia games anymore, I wish I could stay and not get replaced but I just can't, unexpected things happening right now ...

Thank you for your understanding. I'm site flaking ... can't do anything else. I've sent a PM to the mod.

Good luck everyone

[Vincent2128]

Nachomamma8

gave an explanation for his unusual start, and i like his point about Vincent2128 in post 152, so he is now neutral for me.

In that case, you agree with his point, and I am as a result town to you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Can't say I'm really interested in a Malee wagon right now since I think the fundamental point she made was a sound one about Nacho.

Dislike Rhinox becuase of the very soft way he's been playing. There's absolutely no conviction in the arguments he was making; his "good point" from LS wasn't actually a good point and it was just the first i a set of panders towards LS that he mde.

making a good point or agreeing with a mediocre point doesn't indicate much in terms of alighnment; though I do agree that Rhinox has been playing a reactive game instead of proactive. Still haven't seen anything from Malee that makes me want to change my vote.

I disagree, I think that from some players the strength of their arguments is a useful argument and certainly how active or reactive a player is is useful information in the game.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever.

Anyone else find this off? So you're persuaded by two people that a third is scum but you're content to let your vote ride on a fourth because why, because it's easier?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, not necessarily. When scum lay down a vote, regardless of the intent behind it, and they are pressured for the vote, it is very common for them to go "oh shit, you're right. Silly me, unvote".

Yeah, but town do that too, especially when you have in your mind that X voted Y as part of your reasoning but X never voted Y.

But 4nxi3ty/fishy/others are making convincing points - Malee's original vote was for nacho skimming, and he skimmed whether he actually voted vincent or not, and Malee has been seemingly skirting the issue and not really answering questions about when she did and didn't think that nacho voted vincent, and why the fact that nacho didn't vote vincent makes his skimming no longer scummy in her opinion.

@Malee Site flaking:

Also I've noted how Rhinox began pushing on hiplop after I noted what hiplop did in voting him (#135).

Not sure I understand what you're saying here

[Lastsurvivor]

Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever.

Also, I don't understand why SA was suspicious earlier to some people. I like post 151's reasoning, though it does seem a little hesitant to express strong opinions, not a scumtell by itself by any means though.

SA was suspicious because his earlier posting was crap and he wasn't playing the game. Everyone that was on the SA wagon has already said that SA has improved (except hiplop, but meh), so you making that statement is irrelevant other than to suck up.

FTR I find that, along with what DDD said, bad.

While I agree with Rhinox's general sentiment about Malee's site flake, it's not really indicative to alignment. She did it in every game. So don't think that me asking her for a reads list made her crack or anything (although I'm sure none of you were).

That said, her successor has got some work to do and they better give me that reads list.

[funkybike1]

Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable.

[Fishythefish]

Malee flaking sucks. I really wanted her explanation, and now instead I just have an unsatisfying suspicion on someone who won't be able to explain anything. Maybe we should just lynch her.

@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.