Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)


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Post Post #175 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:26 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

Vote Count

Malee (5) - 4nxi3ty, Alicewondering, fishythefish, Vincent2128, Lastsurvivor
funkybike1 (2) - nachomamma8, kortul
fishythefish (1) - Sleepless Assassin
rhinox (1) - hiplop
nachomamma8 (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro
4nxi3ty (1) - rhinox

Not Voting (2) - funkybike1, Malee

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is April 4th, 7PM PST

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Post Post #176 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:28 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

@Funkybike:

In post 147, Lastsurvivor wrote:yay funky posted things.

Funky, do you agree with the proposed meta about you (by Rhinox I think) that you enjoy playing more as scum?

Also, why is pandering not legitimate on D1? I think trying to flatter your aggressor would work no matter when it happens during the game. And flattery is definitely a popular scum tactic. People think twice about who they're fighting against if that person calls them townies, compliments their arguments etc.'

Also, Funky, you left out a few people in your reads list. Was that intentional? What are your thoughts on Sleepless Assassin?


Plz respond k thanks.
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Post Post #177 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:48 am

Post by hiplop »

I dunno, when I'm town, I really want to appear town.... I really don't agree with your vague case/vote on Rhinox.

Fair enough, honestly. I'm struggling to put my ideas accross, I suppose it could be considered a heavy gut case, but im pretty convinced.

Nacho "changing his playstyle" urks me. Its moreso the fact that hes talking about it.

Does anyone have a deep past with nachomama, that they would be able to meta him easily (before the playstyle change), I think he might be trying this to dodge a meta-gun.
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Post Post #178 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:41 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

I think DDD has played with Nacho. Dunno if he has a "deep past" with him.
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Post Post #179 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:42 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

Pedit: I assume that from the "You're better than this" comment he made earlier in the game.
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Post Post #180 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 173, funkybike1 wrote:Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable.

So, as soon as I attack you, you back down. Nothing to say about anything brought up against you?
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Post Post #181 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:03 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 177, hiplop wrote:
I dunno, when I'm town, I really want to appear town.... I really don't agree with your vague case/vote on Rhinox.

Fair enough, honestly. I'm struggling to put my ideas accross, I suppose it could be considered a heavy gut case, but im pretty convinced.

Nacho "changing his playstyle" urks me. Its moreso the fact that hes talking about it.

Does anyone have a deep past with nachomama, that they would be able to meta him easily (before the playstyle change), I think he might be trying this to dodge a meta-gun.

Rhinox has played the most with me out of anyone here, but he doesn't really have a deep past with me.
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Post Post #182 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:04 pm

Post by Nachomamma8 »

As for Malee wagoners, I'd like to see justification for staying on the wagon.
Do you really feel your case was that strong?
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Post Post #183 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:32 pm

Post by Vincent2128 »

I'm not as strong a proponent of a Malee wagon than the others are. It's just that I have yet to find a scumread to put a vote upon.
Pretty much this is the reason why I'm voting Malee
In post 128, Vincent2128 wrote:
In post 127, Sleepless Assassin wrote:
Malee didn't seem genuine with the over reaction to one thing (nacho) and lack of much else.

Personally, I think that Malee's reaction to nacho was an attempt to gain town credits from me.
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Post Post #184 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:30 pm

Post by Fishythefish »

In post 182, Nachomamma8 wrote:As for Malee wagoners, I'd like to see justification for staying on the wagon.
Do you really feel your case was that strong?

I think the case against Malee is strong. Sure, there's only one point, but it's a pretty good one. I definitely want to work out what out people think of it before I move on.
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Post Post #185 (ISO) » Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:23 pm

Post by kortul »

In post 168, Vincent2128 wrote:
In post 164, kortul wrote:
Nachomamma8
gave an explanation for his unusual start, and i like his point about Vincent2128 in post 152, so he is now neutral for me.

In that case, you agree with his point, and I am as a result town to you?
Am i seeing an overdose of egocentricity? Or some kind of obsession with town credits - you were thinking that Malee attempted to gain town credits from you, now asking if you are town to me?

I like the thinking out of the box from Nachomamma8 in that post, and also think that scum has less reasons to bring such an unusual thought on public (unless both of you are scum). Therefore my read on Nacho improved.

On the other hand, i believe that extremely egocentric player may see that Malee post as "an attempt to gain town credits" regardless of his alignment, so you are neutral to me. But, if Malee replacement or you will flip scum one day, the other will get a town boost in my eyes, since i don't see scum accusing another scum of an attempt to gain town credits, at the same time adding suspicion with active wagon rolling on a partner.

My read on Malee didn't change - i wanted to see her thoughts and reads to get a better understanding and figure out whether there would be any inconsistences there as well. With this option gone, that slot remains leaning scum to me. Time will show whether this will be true by the end of the day - i am against speed lynches that deny us time and information/interactions, that can be gathered during this time.

In post 173, funkybike1 wrote:Nacho managed to provide a decent explanation for his behavior; I find it believable.
That doesn't explain why didn't you vote before, when he was scum for you, question is still open. If Nacho isn't scummy anymore, whom do you suspect? There are other questions you haven't answered - at least two of your town reads are asking them, what is the reason to ignore us?
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Post Post #186 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:12 am

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

In post 174, Fishythefish wrote:@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.


To a large degree I'm working on a basic calculus of "I think Nacho is cruising and thus likely scum, noob isn't going to immediately bus and they certainly aren't going to panic and remove their vote like that; thus nachoscum = Maleetown". I think your second point is reasonable (I think the first is something that makes sense to assume) but how much of that can be explained by a player out of their depth?

In post 178, Lastsurvivor wrote:I think DDD has played with Nacho. Dunno if he has a "deep past" with him.


I've played somewhere in the vicinity of three to six games (I think) with him but I don't have any specific meta of him other than "fairly conventional above-average player"
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Post Post #187 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:43 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

well there is plenty of time left in the day to figure out if malee's replacement is scummy, don't really have anything else to add to what has already been said.

funkybike's reads felt a little off, however, I don't see the scum motivation for not voting. I would expect scum to place a vote on someone they called scum to avoid getting called out.

I need to think more on rhinox.

fishy's take on malee is good imo.

vincent's malee vote and reasoning looked good as well, though his comments about hiplop didn't quite sit right with me.

I'm conflicted about lastsurvivor. some of his posting I find are exceedingly townish, others not so much

The person on the malee wagon that bothered me the most was alicewondering:
alice wrote:Nacho makes an excellent point on funky. Also Kortul. Consider me persuaded, though I'll keep my vote on Malee for now. I'd probably be willing to switch to funky whenever

This feels like attempt to secure a place on the next biggest wagon when the malee wagon dies.

unvote, vote: Alicewondering
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Post Post #188 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:30 am

Post by Sleepless Assassin »

unvote
.

Fish's response to bandwagoning is a town response. I threw out a buzzword to see what he'd say. I think if he was scum, he'd deny bandwagoning and say he has his own case that had nothing to do with everyone elses and malee was scummy whether everyone agreed or not. Instead, he said town wagon too and justified his reasoning for sheeping a case he agreed with. It looks really genuine.

As for a new vote, I want the kind of look at the game that I can only get from a computer, so I'm gonna try to get my girlfriend's laptop and bring it to Barnes N Noble today and look over the game.
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Post Post #189 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:44 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

Anxiety wrote:This feels like attempt to secure a place on the next biggest wagon when the malee wagon dies.

Lastsurvivor pulled the same shit.
Why Alice and not LS?
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Post Post #190 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:45 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

In post 187, 4nxi3ty wrote:I'm conflicted about lastsurvivor. some of his posting I find are exceedingly townish, others not so much
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Post Post #191 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:50 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Unvote, Vote: Alicewondering
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Post Post #192 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:21 am

Post by Sleepless Assassin »

Ok, I'm gonna do a few ISOs and see what I can get out of them.

First, Malee for two reasons. She looked like scum to me and then a massive wagon built up.
ISO 1 and 2: So there's the attack on Nacho for skimming. That's what caught me off guard. Admittedly, it was early in the day so I was looking for anything. Then again, it seems she massively over reaction. She voted (which is fine) and said he didn't care about the game. In ISO 2, she bolds and caps a "warning" not to skim.
ISO 4: She brings up Nacho's "vote" on Vincent (for the first time). Turns out the "vote" was a one-liner about Vince not voting.
ISO 6: Unvotes because Nacho didn't vote Vince. Wasn't Malee's initial vote for skimming? Actually, where the hell did she even get the impression that Nacho was skimming. I don't know, it looks to me like Malee is just set on voting Nacho and when it doesn't work, she plays the confusion card to back off of it.
ISO 7: Still feels Nacho skimmed even without the Vince vote. So why did Malee unvote if skimming is scummy to her?
ISO 8: Flakes. Fuck you.
Overall: I still feel Malee is scum. Her Nacho case reeks of being fake and she did nothing but tunnel on it. I think she was trying to give the impression of scum hunting.

Next up is funky. He seems to be under the radar, yet called scum a lot. It also looks like a wagon could be brewing on him. I want to make sure I'm satisfied with an opinion on him.
ISO 0,1,2: Irrelevant. I don't think he was playing the game up to this point.
ISO 4: These are the "reads" I mentioned having a problem with before. Look at them. According to bike, Vince is "Overly town", "[probably] vanilla town", and "at least for now". So he sees play that looks very town, decides to openly guess that he isn't a power role, and throw in the disclaimer at the end that it could change. Read on 4n is "no information". hip "has contributed" but bike "can't get a read". So he has three town reads (Last, Rhinox, and Kort). And Kort is somehow "proven town". The way I see these reads is he won't commit to reads on some players (why even list them? Why not list other players who may or may not be null?) and even his reads have no real reasons. The closest to reasoning he gets is on Last, because "scum wouldn't post like that". He calls Nacho scum and "can't see any other possibility, yet in....
ISO 5: he says Nacho provided a "decent explanation". So we're back to no scum reads and three unexplained town reads.
Overall: Really not liking Bike.

I also want to look at Alice. It looks like another potential wagon, but I haven't really seen this one as scummy. I'll see what comes up in the ISO.
ISO 1: Legitimate questions, but could be asked regardless of alignment.
ISO 3: Malee case. I don't think these two could be scum together, so if one flips scum, I probably won't go after the other.
ISO 5: Says Last is scummier if Malee flips scum. I think this shows a genuine belief that Malee is scum.
Overall: Yeah, Alice is town.

Vote Bike
because I don't feel like putting a player who can't claim at L-1. This does NOT mean that when someone replaces Malee, everyone unvotes because "HURHURHUR REPLACEMENT". Everyone knows replacing in isn't a towntell, yet I see it treated as one way too much. But yeah, Bike or Malee would be a good lynch. Both seem to be fake scumhunting.

Also, I'm adjusting my will and would suggest that everyone else who hasn't since confirmations do the same now that we are in the stage of the game where reads should exist on most players
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Post Post #193 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:09 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 183, Vincent2128 wrote:I'm not as strong a proponent of a Malee wagon than the others are. It's just that I have yet to find a scumread to put a vote upon.
Pretty much this is the reason why I'm voting Malee
In post 128, Vincent2128 wrote:
In post 127, Sleepless Assassin wrote:
Malee didn't seem genuine with the over reaction to one thing (nacho) and lack of much else.

Personally, I think that Malee's reaction to nacho was an attempt to gain town credits from me.

Do you have scumreads that really aren't that strong?
What are your townreads?
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Post Post #194 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:28 am

Post by Nachomamma8 »

In post 184, Fishythefish wrote:
In post 182, Nachomamma8 wrote:As for Malee wagoners, I'd like to see justification for staying on the wagon.
Do you really feel your case was that strong?

I think the case against Malee is strong. Sure, there's only one point, but it's a pretty good one. I definitely want to work out what out people think of it before I move on.

It's hard for me to distinguish between sloppy play because not paying attention and sloppy play because scum. And without her here to explain herself, I really don't think we have a way to distingush between the two right now.
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Post Post #195 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:00 am

Post by funkybike1 »

Agreed. Also, sloppy play is NOT a scumtell on day 1 when you have no adequate way to defend yourself.

I did not vote Nacho because I was waiting for him to respond to my question.
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Post Post #196 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:02 pm

Post by Fishythefish »

In post 186, Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
In post 174, Fishythefish wrote:@DDD: you said you didn't like the case on Malee because her point against Nacho was sound. But that's not really the case against Malee, at least not for me. When she unvoted Nacho, she:
- Implied she had found him scummy, which hadn't previously been stated.
- Said it was now null because he hadn't voted, which made little or no difference to the point against him (skimming).
It's pretty clear to me that Malee was panicking and backing off without really thinking about what she'd actually said/thought about Nacho. This kind of contradiction seems more likely from scum than town for me.


To a large degree I'm working on a basic calculus of "I think Nacho is cruising and thus likely scum, noob isn't going to immediately bus and they certainly aren't going to panic and remove their vote like that; thus nachoscum = Maleetown". I think your second point is reasonable (I think the first is something that makes sense to assume) but how much of that can be explained by a player out of their depth?

I agree that this is more likely to come from someone out of their depth - but it still requires either lying or forgetting what you'd thought very recently, and both of those are pretty decent scumtells. I think this is more than "sloppy play". And yes, I tend to agree that Malee most likely wouldn't have played like that if scum with Nacho. For me that's not very important atm - I have no real read on Nacho at the moment.

@funky:
- Why did you think Nacho was scum?
- Where is his "decent explanation for his behaviour"?
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Post Post #197 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:59 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

Mmm. I'm content with sticking with Malee for now. Malee does have a few more points than just what you mentioned in #194, Nacho. I've mentioned one, and Vincent has mentioned at least one.

In general, I was expecting an exodus off the wagon after Nacho's post. Slightly surprised that only Anx hopped off.

General question: What does everyone think of hiplop?

Also

FUNKYBIKE

WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS? PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTIONS THAT I HAVE QUOTED ON THE TOP OF THIS PAGE THANK YOU.


@SA: Malee only has 4 votes atm. I'm assuming you didn't realize this?
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Post Post #198 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:09 pm

Post by funkybike1 »

In post 147, Lastsurvivor wrote:yay funky posted things.

Funky, do you agree with the proposed meta about you (by Rhinox I think) that you enjoy playing more as scum?

Also, why is pandering not legitimate on D1? I think trying to flatter your aggressor would work no matter when it happens during the game. And flattery is definitely a popular scum tactic. People think twice about who they're fighting against if that person calls them townies, compliments their arguments etc.'

Also, Funky, you left out a few people in your reads list. Was that intentional? What are your thoughts on Sleepless Assassin?

In order:

I disagree with that meta entirely; I dislike being scum.

I see pandering as too "obvious" a tell, I think you can't read someone as scum just for pandering.

Yes, it was intentional to leave people out. Sleepless Assassin's last post moves him more towards the town end of the scale.
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Post Post #199 (ISO) » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:22 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

Why did you leave some people out?
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