New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[Alicewondering]

HALLELUJAH. After some hardcore Googlecaching, I have found the comment that first gave me pause about DY. http://www.mediafire.com/?wrq6ltzfp39n16z Check this kiddos, and ctrl+f "1225" or "hold up." Seems a bit inconsistent with FBI agent claim.

[DeasVail]

sorry, I keep messing that up. I meant you voting me.

I didn't miss anything.

Well someone has been telling me what my reads are and then decides they don't actually know them... I wonder who.

[DeasVail]

Above was @Fitz by the way.

Alice, I don't really think that post indicates much, but I could be wrong. What do others think?

[Alicewondering]

Here's my thoughts on the post:
1. shows more than normal knowledge about the scumteam, and he later passes this off as speculation that an 18 player game has to have 4 scum.
2. wouldn't he have at least suspected a third party, esp given his role? there is really no hinting from him that this is true prior to his claim. i think his claim was meant to throw town into confusion given the two different kill flavors, and now he's trying to pass his claim off as a red herring.

[DeasVail]

Alice, I'm not comfortable having that contribute to my read of him, as often town do weird things like this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– you seem to be asking a number of questions and when you receive answers nothing seems to come from them. Why is that?

sorry, I keep messing that up. I meant you voting me.

So is your stance that all the scum were voting you as opposed to Jason yesterday?

Alice, I'm not comfortable having that contribute to my read of him, as often town do weird things like this.

So what exactly is your objective standard for what is a scum-tell then? Because anything that scum do Town can also do. For example – your wagon from yesterday is not 100% scum. Town must be on there.

--

@Alice

– I can’t get that download to work. I gather from the context of your posting you are pointing out something from Darth that is inconsistent with his claim. Is that correct?

--

Preview edit...ffs sake MOI. How my town read on Ghost anymore buddying than yours. At least I have provided reasoning (despite your opinion of it). I don't re all your reasoning...was it gut? Cause gut it a lot weaker than what I have.

Ok let’s be clear – you assertion that scum aren’t Neighborizors has been show to be 100% completely inaccurate. Yet that is the SOLE reason you repeatedly have stated that you find Ghostlin Town. That’s absolutely you clinging to a disproven reason simply in an effort to maintain your read. Which is scummy.

Why do I find Ghostlin Town? His play screams Town.

His handling of information post-claiming of his role has been transparently Town. He’s shared information that benefits Town (for example, confirming information provided by Kamrun in the QT) but not exploded the thread with every single detail. He proactively alerted us that the Neighborhood was full.

His voting pattern has been solidy Town – he stood pretty strongly against the Palisade lynch. He also, IIRC, was on to IAI before Muffin outed him as obv-lying scum.

He points out anti-Town incorrect logic and post and explains why they are incorrect and / or scummy (this is ++ Town in my book) – for example his Post 176 properly shows that you were not thinking in any capacity regarding considering DV to possible be a Serial Killer.

If I had an actual Archive to work with I could point out more examples of his clear Town play.

So again … your stance is craptastic at best and most probably coming from a scum perspective.

[DarthYoshi]

Alice: Thanks for pointing out Fitz's ridiculous (which I'm having a hard time seeing as anything but scummy right now), but why haven't you answered my question?

DY is really scummy, but I don't know what to do with him.

Top scumreads: Fitz and DY I guess.

I agree with Ghostlin about MoI and RedFF, but I am thinking it not so unlikely that both are town.

MoI's interactions with me anyway are not any different from what I'd expect from him as town and his play is the same. However, there's nothing about him that screams town to me. The most scummy thing is his claimed role. A two-shot doc seems like a strange role to have in this set-up considering no other X-shots and generally quite alternative roles. How early/late in the claiming order did MoI claim? One thing possibly in his favour and not in RedFF's if MoI claimed early is that the 2-shot doc claim is more risky than the bodyguard claim.

After looking at things, I'm seeing RedFF as probable town because he claimed to have been protecting muffin after Alice claimed not to have tracked him and without knowing that Kamrun jailkept him (unless Jason watched him and managed to communicate it). I don't see why RedFF would have claimed this as scum, and think it more likely he's town.

What I really want to know is what others think of my thoughts.

Bolded emphasis mine. This doesn't make sense. If one of MOI/RedFF are scum, then are you saying that both Fitz and I are also scum and that one of us is the SK, otherwise one of us is town.

Between MOI and redFF, I'd rather lynch MOI. If we're going to try Ghostlin's hypothesis (again, I think he makes a reasonable point with it), then:

Vote: MOI.

Darth – I recall you mentioning the possibility of there being 4 scum…but I assumed you were referring to mafia and not including the potential SK your role would suggest. Did you ever voice the opinion that we were in a 14:4 set up and can you provide where you have mentioned repeatedly that your role is a red herring (at least prior to me bringing it up earlier today). I’ll ISO you after I make this post to check your post–crash commentary but I can’t recall you saying you thought your role was a red herring (i.e. essentially useless).

No, in D1 I do not recall explicitly hypothesizing a 14:4 setup. I simply assumed there was likely to be 4 scum regardless of whether there is an SK or not. Now that we have four straight one-flips, I think it is more likely that we are in a 14:4 setup than a 13:4:1. IIRC, I mentioned on D4 (pre-crash) that I thought my role might be a red herring due to three one-flips, but I'm not 100% positive that I did. I do know that I have been very explicit about that belief post-crash.

-------------
Yeah, snake's vote is bad, but I have to think that if he were scum, he'd try at least a little harder with dressing up the bandwagon vote. It actually feels more like apathetic town than scum to me, tbh.
-------------

Top two scumreads:
MOI
DV

I would be ok with a red lynch, but I think out of the claimed PRs, MOI is a better lynch.
-------------

This quote is an example why the bolded above doesn’t sit well with me at all. Your entire line of suspicion today is basically 100% speculation –

1. Why is MoI alive look at his title.
2. Camn’s death points 100% to you.

Camn’s death points to that she was perceived as a threat by her killers. Your argument here dismissed any other players who were on her radar (which we unfortunately can’t really review, funny how that works huh) or the fact that muffin himself was a much bigger pusher of MoI than camn was Day 1. But certainly dismiss those elements in crafting your suspicion.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too chief. You don’t get to ascribe Nightkill WIFOM logic in a way that damns me re: camn and then turn around and dismiss the fact that me being alive doesn’t make sense (in that active power-roles are bigger targets).

As to #1: You're being reductive. There's a reason why you have that particular title. FTR, the ONLY other time I've ever used the "they're still alive" argument as a scumtell was on Vi in a mini normal some time ago, and I was right.

As to #2: Muffin may have pushed more, but I recall camn being more persuasive at building that wagon than either me or muffin.

This isn't me having my cake and eating it too. I said I couldn't speak to it, and that IF--IF you wanted to play the NK motivation WIFOM game, it doesn't look good for you.

So you are saying that you just completely forgot that you agreed to a redFF scan (the only player, at that stage given the claims we have, that made any sense as a Serial Killer) and got distracted by end of Day talk?

There’s a level of, for lack of a better word, inherent incompetence in this explanation I am not sure I buy. I know you aren’t incompetent.

You're right, it was an egregious mistake for a player with my experience. It was incompetent. It was completely out of character for me.

That doesn't mean I'm scum.

DarthYoshi’s

MOI's role sticks out like a sore thumb at this point given we already have

two

one confirmed Town

information

protective roles

plus one claimed protective role

.

FTFY.

More to the point, though, why did you put your vote on Snake instead of red? If Ghosty is right, then to TownYou, red should be obvscum.

The more I think about it, the more I think Ghosty is right and that one of MOI or red needs to be today's lynch (even though I also see DV as scummy).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Between MOI and redFF, I'd rather lynch MOI. If we're going to try Ghostlin's hypothesis (again, I think he makes a reasonable point with it), then:
Vote: MOI.

I’d ask you to explain why but I sense the reason is that I have doubts about your alignment. I do note that your focus came right back to me after I called out how unlikely your role is in the set-up now.

As to #1: You're being reductive. There's a reason why you have that particular title. FTR, the ONLY other time I've ever used the "they're still alive" argument as a scumtell was on Vi in a mini normal some time ago, and I was right.

So your whole basis is “I was successful this one time”. Noted. Seriously, your argument is basically an off-shoot of “Burden of Proficiency”. We can debate this all you would like. I can show you any number of Large games where I was not killed as Town until very late game / not at all due to lynch. Basically your argument is WIFOM that can be spun however you chose, just like most Nightkill arguments.

As to #2: Muffin may have pushed more, but I recall camn being more persuasive at building that wagon than either me or muffin.

Funny, I don’t remember that at all. I recall that muffin was the primer mover against me and camn was basically a fluffy nuisance.

This isn't me having my cake and eating it too. I said I couldn't speak to it, and that IF--IF you wanted to play the NK motivation WIFOM game, it doesn't look good for you.

No, it quite is. You want to say “MoI is scum because he’s not been Nightkilled” which is pure Nightkill WIFOM speculation. Then when challenged on that you turn and say “Oh, well this one kill makes you look bad”. No mention of all the other kills (including Baseline who had me as solid Town) that don’t. That’s the nature of your argument … you get to cherry-pick whatever you like that supports your bullshit and ignore / handwave whatever doesn’t.

You're right, it was an egregious mistake for a player with my experience. It was incompetent. It was completely out of character for me.

That doesn't mean I'm scum.

Correct. Doesn’t mean you aren’t either. I’m looking at the rest of your play in that regard.

More to the point, though, why did you put your vote on Snake instead of red?

If

Ghosty is right, then to TownYou, red should be obvscum.

I’ve bolded the word that shows me this is one of those scummy “Why aren’t you voting Player X” arguments. I think Ghostlin is Town but that doesn’t make him infalliable. And for the record – your role is doesn’t make any sense in the Set-up either.

Basically you are buying the “redFF or MoI” argument since it artificially restricts the lynches. Convenient, huh? We probably have 3 Mafia remaining (yeah, I did forget to mention that your 4 Mafia theory makes no sense with the apparent lack of a Serial Killer in the setup). I’ll happily vote redFF if those players I consider Town (Ghostlin and Alice) both agree it should be a PoE lynch.

Otherwise I’m going to still hunt scum. Like Snake and probably yourself.

[Zachrulez]

2nd vote count of day 5:

redff - 3 (Alicewondering, havingfitz, Snakeplissken)
Havingfitz - 2 (redFF, DeasVail)
Snakeplissken - 2 (MagnaofIllusion, Nobody Special)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (DarthYoshi)

Not Voting: (Ghostlin, Jon_h61)

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Day 5 will end no later than Friday, April 13th at 6pm CST

[jon_h61]

With info from kamrun's ISO, and the fact that a bodyguard is still alive after so many failed attempts to protect the night kills-
VOTE: RedFF

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Alice

- I see you vote is currently on redFF despite your push on Darth. What is your personal stance on today being a redFF versus MoI affair?

[redFF]

I have a town read on moi :S

[Alicewondering]

@Alice

- I see you vote is currently on redFF despite your push on Darth. What is your personal stance on today being a redFF versus MoI affair?

I'm fine with redFF being lynched today, but my stronger read is certainly on DY. I don't want it to be a redFF/MoI affair because you are pretty much town to me, so it leaves me no option for my lynch. I'd MUCH rather the day to be opened up.

MOI, here is the post from Darth and my reply word for word:

This still reeks of setting up future mislynches to begin with, and it is even worse with what is either a complete lack of consistency, or the audacity to call 3/4's of the scumteam before a scum has flipped.

Hold up, how did you know the scumteam has 4 people?

How the hell does this sort of post come from a claimed FBI agent?

[redFF]

2nd vote count of day 5:

redff - 3 (Alicewondering, havingfitz, Snakeplissken)

I'm fine with redFF being lynched today, but my stronger read is certainly on DY.

what

[Alicewondering]

Did you read the post that I voted you? You're not giving me any reason to think you're town.

[DeasVail]

Sorry I've really confused myself. I haven't been paying enough attention.

MoI: I'm not really sure how to answer that, but thanks for pointing it out and I'm going to try harder.

Also, I'm not going to objectively say that in that kind of situation there would definitely be scum voting for me, and I wouldn't necessarily think that there would be, but I don't think that is the situation here.

As I said, Havingfitz was obviously putting thought into the situation and presented his reasoning for voting for me (I got it right this time!) as completely logical. However, it completely disregards who was more likely to be scum (Jason self-watching all the time didn't ring any alarm bells?) and I thought my arguments for me being town were pretty good too. So, it looks to me like he was trying too hard to vote me while making it look logical, despite not considering what town would naturally consider. Another thing about HavingFitz is that his reasons for thinking me scum throughout have basically boiled down to my suspicions being OMGUS, but considering that my major suspects this game have been IaI, Jason, DY, Fitz (and even he was a leaning town read at one point), this being two flipped scum and two unflipped, I don't think his reasoning makes any sense anymore, as I would've thought it assumed who I suspected was town.

I also think DY suspecting me is very wrong, but I'm not sure about him yet and will decide later. Also, I don't know how likely it is that DY and Fitz are scum together. This is because I'm thinking there's probably one scum member that didn't attack me (this could maybe be IaI, but even he "suspected" me). MoI, what do you think of this?

Jon keeps coming up as possible scum to me, mainly because he kept throwing his vote around right after crash without actually knowing anything, but no one else seems to find him scummy, and Thor was a townread.

@Everyone: What is your opinion on MoI's provided reasoning for protecting me. I think it's really strange and doesn't match up with how I'd think as a doc (especially a 2-shot doc), but I want other opinions.

Alice: Can you please answer my questions to you that you haven't answered?

@DY Your response to my post is an example of why I think you're scum.

@Alice

Thoughts on:

"After looking at things, I'm seeing RedFF as probable town because he claimed to have been protecting muffin after Alice claimed not to have tracked him and without knowing that Kamrun jailkept him (unless Jason watched him and managed to communicate it). I don't see why RedFF would have claimed this as scum, and think it more likely he's town."

please.

[jon_h61]

@ Deas I only have what is in THIS thread to go on, so what is said here is all I have to go on. AM I supposed to wait until I have all the facts before I can vote? You keep trying to paint me as scum with weak arguments, but you can't change my alignment.

@ Red The question I asked you about earlier, the "they" was a hydra? If "they" were going to block you, why protect them??? Posts 154,and 161. I guess it may be possible that RedFF was blocked both times on his attempt at being a bodyguard, but I don't see why a jailkeeper would keep a bodyguard.

I'm trying to paint as clear a picture as I can of what happened before I showed up, but until I get it done I'm gonna "sheep" who I think is most likely Town. I AM listening to all arguments and trying to find holes in them that will point to scum.

@ Alice Thanks for the links to pre-Great Crash posts.

[redFF]

@jon they admitted to blocking me once and still had me as a strong scumread...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm fine with redFF being lynched today, but my stronger read is certainly on DY. I don't want it to be a redFF/MoI affair because you are pretty much town to me, so it leaves me no option for my lynch. I'd MUCH rather the day to be opened up.

Thanks, I just wanted confirmation that you were not of the “1v1” stance.

How the hell does this sort of post come from a claimed FBI agent?

I agree with that stance given that odds are favorable we don’t have a Serial Killer, especially given he agrees with the lack but still hasn’t updated his ‘possible set-ups’ to include anything other than 4 total scum. A 13-5 setup certainly isn’t out of the question.

--

I also think DY suspecting me is very wrong, but I'm not sure about him yet and will decide later. Also, I don't know how likely it is that DY and Fitz are scum together. This is because I'm thinking there's probably one scum member that didn't attack me (this could maybe be IaI, but even he "suspected" me). MoI, what do you think of this?

I’m not sure I understand your stance here Deas. Do you mean “You don’t think all the scum attacked you

at the same time

” or do you mean “You don’t think all the scum attacked you

over the course of the game

”?

If you are meaning the first I think it’s a pretty safe bet that all the Mafia were not pressing you at once. Rarely outside a MYLO / LYLO situation do you get such a concentration of scum.

The second is rather pointless as reads change over the course of the game.

Jon keeps coming up as possible scum to me, mainly because he kept throwing his vote around right after crash without actually knowing anything, but no one else seems to find him scummy, and Thor was a townread.

I don’t think you are quite reading the situation accurately. I don’t have a solid Town read on Jon. I didn’t like the slot’s play regarding Palisade and the amount of hair-splitting I believe Thor was doing. That said I don’t see Jon’s ‘being lost’ as unusual. He’s replaced into a slot without a full archive.

[havingfitz]

Sorry I've really confused myself. I haven't been paying enough attention.

Scum do not need to pay attention.

MoI: I'm not really sure how to answer that, but thanks for pointing it out and I'm going to try harder.

No answer is not a good answer (redFF…please take note.)

Also,I'm not going to objectively say that in that kind of situation there would definitely be scum voting for me,and I wouldn't necessarily think that there would be,but I don't think that is the situation here.

I think after reading this comment a few times because it was hard to follow…kind of like the typing equivalent of mumbling…what you are saying is is that you do not think there is scum voting you. Which I was doing… which you are holding against me. WTF.

As I said,Havingfitz was obviously putting thought into the situation and presented his reasoning for voting for me (I got it right this time!) as completely logical. However,it completely disregards who was more likely to be scum (Jason self-watching all the time didn't ring any alarm bells?) and I thought my arguments for me being town were pretty good too.

I did put thought into my opinion. You should try it. I did suspect Jason and if not for his claim I probably would have voted him D1 or 2. Once his claim was confirmed he bought himself even more time IMO. I’ve clearly outlined my rationale for voting you over him. You may recall there were several other players voting you over Jason yesterday. I don’t recall your town arguments and I will see if I can find them after this post but I’m sure if they had been of any substance I would recall them and not suspect you as much as I do.

So,it looks to me like he was trying too hard to vote me while making it look logical,despite not considering what town would naturally consider. Another thing about HavingFitz is that

1) his reasons for thinking me scum throughout have basically boiled down to my suspicions being OMGUS

,but

2 )considering that my major suspects this game have been IaI,Jason,DY,Fitz (and even he was a leaning town read at one point),this being two flipped scum and two unflipped,

I don't think his reasoning makes any sense anymore,as I would've thought it assumed who I suspected was town.

1) This is not true at all. I have continually given you flack for your OMGUS voting/suspecting reliance but it has not been the only reason I suspected you. From page 1 of this game I was pointing out your contradictions. You have continued to vote with little or no rationale. Your unwillingness to be tracked was scummy. If you were town it could have been phrased “If you want to waste a track on me feel free to but the track would be better served on someone else” etc. Your admission that you would or had considered fakeclaiming was also extremely scummy. When does town ever fakeclaim? How’s that for considering what town would naturally consider? 2) first off…I do not recall IAI being a major suspect of yours. Most of his votes came in conjunction with zMuffin’s investigation results on him. I would absolutely expect there to be scum on his wagon once he was outted by zMuff. Same with Jason…I do not recall you going hard after Jason until he put you in a 1v1 situation at the start of yesterday. By that point he probably knew coming into the day that he was toast and by implicating you…set up the 1v1 where you HAD to vote him. The question is was that claimed result of his on you to throw others off your trail or did he actually think it would spare him another night. IMO if you actually are town and he was going to try and extend his life another night he with a concocted result, he (mafia) would have been better served implicating someone who was perhaps a bit behind the scenes but not generating a lot of suspicion (myself….Thor aka jon_h61/perhaps Ns) and saving you for a potential mislynch later on. So your two votes on scum in no way absolve you. In addition to those you had the unexplained hammer on Palisade (when you switched from the equally substantial Snake wagon …I believe they were both at L-1 when you switched to Palisade… WHO you had not indicated previous suspicions towards iirc) and you were pushing DY on day 1 before RedCoyote got himself modkilled. So who knows what to make of that day. And has your early game DY suspicions subsided? It would appear not but you haven’t voted him since late in D2…even though you keep skirting around the fringes indicating you suspect him. As for me,your vote and suspicions of me throughout the entire game…aside from when you had a town lean towards me (translation…when I wasn’t focusing on you)…has been nothing but OMGUS.

I also think DY suspecting me is very wrong, but I'm not sure about him yet and will decide later. Also,I don't know how likely it is that DY and Fitz are scum together. This is because I'm thinking there's probably one scum member that didn't attack me (this could maybe be IaI,but even he "suspected" me). MoI, what do you think of this?

DY OMGUS. Don’t suspect him too much…you might actually have to vote him. You appear to be suspecting MOI over redFF in the Ghost proposed re dFF/MOI either or scenario. Your solicitation of his opinion over red’s… and over Ghost or Alice’s for that matter seems unusual. As if you know his alignment.

Jon keeps coming up as possible scum to me, mainly because he kept throwing his vote around right after crash without actually knowing anything,but no one else seems to find him scummy,and Thor was a townread.

What? I do not recall you putting any suspicions towards that slot this entire game. Is this more OMGUS? What’s funny to me is…looking at your wagon yesterday. At it’s peak you had 5 votes (twice) from a total of sixplayers made up of: redFF,jon_h61,Ghostlin, DY,Jason,and me. Other than Ghoostlin who some consider confirmed town…you have suspected everyone on your wagon. I also find it funny that I was the last one yesterday to place a vote on you. Freshest in your memory perhaps?

@Everyone: What is your opinion on MoI's provided reasoning for protecting me. I think it's really strange and doesn't match up with how I'd think as a doc (especially a 2-shot doc),but I want other opinions.

I am mid post and do not recall his exact reasoning but I do know D1 was abbreviated due to the modkill and perhaps everyone’s reads were still not firmly established. FTR I wouldn’t have protected you I also think I have a question or two directed your way that still needs answering but I’m not going looking for them att from my phone.

Alice: Can you please answer my questions to you that you haven't answered?

The same request goes from me to you and redFF.

@DY Your response to my post is an example of why I think you're scum.

Too funny.

[DeasVail]

1) This is not true at all. I have continually given you flack for your OMGUS voting/suspecting reliance but it has not been the only reason I suspected you. From page 1 of this game I was pointing out your contradictions. You have continued to vote with little or no rationale. Your unwillingness to be tracked was scummy. If you were town it could have been phrased %u201CIf you want to waste a track on me feel free to but the track would be better served on someone else%u201D etc. Your admission that you would or had considered fakeclaiming was also extremely scummy. When does town ever fakeclaim? How%u2019s that for considering what town would naturally consider? 2) first off%u2026I do not recall IAI being a major suspect of yours. Most of his votes came in conjunction with zMuffin%u2019s investigation results on him. I would absolutely expect there to be scum on his wagon once he was outted by zMuff. Same with Jason%u2026I do not recall you going hard after Jason until he put you in a 1v1 situation at the start of yesterday. By that point he probably knew coming into the day that he was toast and by implicating you%u2026set up the 1v1 where you HAD to vote him. The question is was that claimed result of his on you to throw others off your trail or did he actually think it would spare him another night. IMO if you actually are town and he was going to try and extend his life another night he with a concocted result, he (mafia) would have been better served implicating someone who was perhaps a bit behind the scenes but not generating a lot of suspicion (myself%u2026.Thor aka jon_h61/perhaps Ns) and saving you for a potential mislynch later on. So your two votes on scum in no way absolve you. In addition to those you had the unexplained hammer on Palisade (when you switched from the equally substantial Snake wagon %u2026I believe they were both at L-1 when you switched to Palisade%u2026 WHO you had not indicated previous suspicions towards iirc) and you were pushing DY on day 1 before RedCoyote got himself modkilled. So who knows what to make of that day. And has your early game DY suspicions subsided? It would appear not but you haven%u2019t voted him since late in D2%u2026even though you keep skirting around the fringes indicating you suspect him. As for me,your vote and suspicions of me throughout the entire game%u2026aside from when you had a town lean towards me (translation%u2026when I wasn%u2019t focusing on you)%u2026has been nothing but OMGUS.

-I don't think I've voted (since RVS anyway) with little to no rationale.
-Why do you think scum would tell Alice not to track them?
-How is my admission that I considered fakeclaiming scummy at all? First, of course I considered fakeclaiming when it looked like I was going to be lynched. I obviously decided it wasn't a good idea in the end, but why do you think scum would mention it?
-I always considered IaI a leaning scum read and it got stronger with Baseline's scum read. I also did vote him a couple of times before the massclaim if that's what you care about. Regarding Jason, he was my major suspect before claiming watcher and I agreed that he should be lynched yesterday before he claimed his result, and I expressed suspicion of him before IaI was lynched, but decided IaI was more likely scum.
-Um, you do realise that the hammer on Palisade was an hour before deadline...
-I'm not saying *I suspected scum therefore I'm town*, I'm saying *I suspected scum therefore my reads are not useless OMGUS*
-My suspicion on you has been a fair bit other than OMGUS

I think your reasons for suspecting me a really bad and some of the inclusions are even worse (like the fakeclaim one).

I haven't really suspected Red all that much recently either if it makes you happy.

[Alicewondering]

Oi, DV, there are more ways to find scum than to look at who suspects you. Also, you're wrong about Jon. What else are you supposed to do? He's doing pretty well for what he's had to deal with. Questions? As in, do I think it was possible you were roleblocked/attempted NKed? I've already answered that quite clearly. I was the one to suggest those possibilities in the first place. There's another possibility that I didn't consider, though, that there's a scumdoc, which I think is unlikely given that there doesn't seem to be an SK, but it's something to keep in mind. I'm still thinking about redFF.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: DarthYoshi
Something is very off with his claim.
- weak bread crumb
- seemingly prior knowledge of setup that contradicts his professed claim
- no hint of two NKs over 4 nights
- passing off his role as a potential red herring before he has even investigated good SK suspects

I think it is highly likely that DY is scum, and at this moment, he is the only acceptable lynch target for me today. We delayed Jason's lynch for days. I will not have another obvscum slip through the cracks again.

[DeasVail]

Unvote: Havingfitz

Vote: DarthYoshi

[Nobody Special]

unvote

Vote: DarthYoshi

(Baaa.)

[havingfitz]

1)

-I don't think I've voted (since RVS anyway) with little to no rationale.

2)

-Why do you think scum would tell Alice not to track them?

3)

-How is my admission that I considered fakeclaiming scummy at all? First,of course I considered fakeclaiming when it looked like I was going to be lynched. I obviously decided it wasn't a good idea in the end,but why do you think scum would mention it?

4a)

-I always considered IaI a leaning scum read and it got stronger with Baseline's scum read. I also did vote him a couple of times before the massclaim if that's what you care about.

4b)

Regarding Jason,he was my major suspect before claiming watcher and I agreed that he should be lynched yesterday before he claimed his result,

4c)

and I expressed suspicion of him before IaI was lynched,but decided IaI was more likely scum.

5)

-Um,you do realise that the hammer on Palisade was an hour before deadline...

6)

-I'm not saying *I suspected scum therefore I'm town*,I'm saying *I suspected scum therefore my reads are not useless OMGUS*

7)

-My suspicion on you has been a fair bit other than OMGUS

8)

I think your reasons for suspecting me a really bad and some of the inclusions are even worse (like the fakeclaim one).

9)

I haven't really suspected Red all that much recently either if it makes you happy.

Bolded numbers above were input by me. My responses to those numbers is below:

1) I disagree. iirc you have either sheeped other players with little or no reasoning,OMGUS anyone who looked cross-eyed in your direction,or made obvious votes when the choice was obvious to you (ie IaI’s outing & the Jason 1v1).

2) Seriously? Maybe so she wouldn’t track them? If you say scum would never do that that would be a nice example of WIFOM.

3) You decided fakeclaiming wasn’t a good idea and yet you wonder why I do not think it was a good idea? The only reason one fakeclaims is to deceive and I stand by the opinion that scum are out to deceive town more often than town is out to deceive town.

4a) At least part of this is a lie. You did not vote IAI a couple of times before the massclaim. You had the lone vote on him on D2 for all of 18 game posts (not by you but by everyone: posts 1362-1380). That was your only vote on him until zMuff outted him. I’m also not sure if that lone vote you place was before or after the massclaim. Does anyone know what post number the massclaim began with? I think it is in the mod’s archives that he provided but I can’t access them over my phone. Either way…you are at best,over-exaggerating your suspicions towards IAI and at a worst,lying about your votes’ proximity to the massclaim AND doing some light bussing.

4b)

As for Jason…you were the first to vote him on D1…which came across as baseless OMGUS posting at the time but in hindsight could have easily been an early bus. As for your suspicions towards Jason before he claimed his result yesterday…that could have easily been laid out for you in a scum QT with Jason. “Hey DV…start out tomorrow throwing suspicions my way and I’ll come back at you with a confirmed watch on you.” Potentially distancing and bussing all wrapped into one.

4c)

I’m not sure what the point is of this comment is. You had a vote D2 on Jason (when he was a claimed watcher and at the height of whatever credibility he may have had) for a few posts (1380-1397) but otherwise did not appear to prefer him in any way to IAI. A short lived vote here or there in no way indicates a commitment to your suspicions IMO. It just gives you something to pad your “town” resume with.

5) I have no way of looking back at time stamps or knowing when a vote was made in conjunction with a deadline. All I know is is that I do not recall you suspecting Palisade and you moved from an L-2 Snake wagon to hammer Palisade. And I do not recall you making a single peep towards Snake since then. Not even in your post 215 which appears to lay out your prime suspicions. What is your current read on Snake? Who it may be worth mentioning did not vote either you or Jason yesterday.

6) Whahuh? I’m saying your reads

are

useless OMGUS and I’m saying the fact you were on two obvscum wagons

doesn’t

make you town.

7) Please elaborate. And please make it more than…I didn’t like what he said. Something meaty would be nice.

8) Which of my reasons for suspecting you do you agree with and how can you defend against them? Other than saying ~“No they aren’t.” or ~”I know you are but what am I.” [Editor’s note…those are not actually quotes from DV]

9) The fact that I suspect redFF makes your lack of suspicion towards him perfectly acceptable IMO. So yes…that makes me happy.

---

I’m not in agreement with the current push on DY. It appears as though his wagon (at least on Alice’s part) is based entirely on the legitimacy of his claim. His claim aside…I have had a town read on DY for most of the game and the claim only added to that IMO,initially at least. We know he has the ability to visit other people so he is a PR of some sort. If he were scum…why would he have visited DV and why is DV still here? I agree,the lack of two kills on any of the nights brings his claim into doubt,but there are any number of reasons there could have been only 1 kill each night. And considering the first NK was a “murder” while all the others have been “kills”…leads me to believe there are two killing factions. If the game was to get to LYLO and DY was still around and there had not been any SK flips or any double NK’s… then I think he would be a prime candidate for the kill. But until there is a little more evidence/track record to subtract from his claim…I would not support his lynch over DV’s or redFF’s….who I might add has an equally dubious claim ATM which has failed at least twice! One of his fails could be accounted for by the Kamrun keep but last night’s remains in question.