Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)


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Post Post #325 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:59 pm

Post by 4nxi3ty »

@LS. ive already explained a little bit earlier:
post288 wrote:Also got the vibe that rhinox was buddyingup to me earlier. And there was something about his 1v1 with last that bugged me that I can't quite remember, nothing to do with pandering though.

may go into it more later when i have time to reread, might just move onto whats currently happening in the game.
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Post Post #326 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:02 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

@4n: Hip basically did the same thing to rhino (PEDIT: Referring to making big things out of little things in his posts).

4n, read alice's 311, specifically the bottom where she defines how scum plays. Don't you think Alice has been avoiding conflict this entire game? And atm she has absolutely no scum reads at all. She was definitely waffled on her hip read once I called her out on it, for seemingly no reason. Don't you think that's...bad?

Also, don't you think it's odd that she's just saying "LOL no you're wrong," towards my case instead of explaining why I'm wrong? Could she possibly not be explaining why I'm wrong because...I'm right, 4n?
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Post Post #327 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:53 pm

Post by hiplop »

i have yet to make a mountain out of a molehill, folks.
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Post Post #328 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:08 pm

Post by LlamaFluff »

Vote Count

Alicewondering (3) - theomoaner, fishythefish, Lastsurvivor
rhinox (2) - 4nxi3ty, hiplop
funkybike1 (2) - kortul, Sleepless Assassin
nachomamma8 (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro
theomoaner (1) - Vincent2128
Lastsurvior (1) - nachomamma8
hiplop (1) - rhinox

Not Voting (2) - funkybike1, Alicewondering

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Post Post #329 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:04 pm

Post by Alicewondering »

Well, LS, since you seem so interested in a response, I'll humor you just this once.

LS wrote:Scum also find it convenient to have no reads at all. Instead of finding scum, they do useless things like mediate on conflicts that they clearly have no interest in. This is what you are doing.
I will admit to not having very good
scum
reads. Hopefully I'll accumulate enough good solid town reads to PoE the scum at this point. But I "mediated" a hiplop/rhinox conflict because I think Rhinox is on the wrong track.

You are avoiding conflict 100% by saying "Lol you're wrong LALALALALALALA."
I'm pretty sure this creates more conflict than posting a proper defense. I'm not really all
that
interested in defending myself right now. I almost always get wrongly accused of being scum, but I haven't been mislynched yet.

Isn't it possible that Hip just changed his reads? Did you not realize this when you voted him? Why do you enjoy changing your views so freaking much?
Misrep here. It's not that hip chnaged his reads, he lied about what he said about his reads previously. That was why I voted him. Changing reads/votes is fine, lying about previous reads is not.
fishy
should this point.

Here are the people who are mostly likely to be town through PoE of my strong(ish) townreads: theomoaner, DDD, funky
Funky obviously hasn't been very impressive, but I don't have anything definitively scummy from him. Theomoaner's catchup post showed a decent attempt at genuinely catching up, but the excessive self-defense and defense of Malee was a bit weird. I'm still considering that because the defense seemed out of place for how much attention Malee was getting at that point.

At the moment, I'm more interested in DDD. He's showed very little effort in scumhunting, which is not necessarily a scumtell, but it is weird to me how he tunneled Nacho for so long, especially considering his case wasn't that great. He hasn't posted much more about his scumreads, even when asked.

VOTE: DDD
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Post Post #330 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:36 pm

Post by Vincent2128 »

Under pressure - Find alternative target?
No.
And your reason has been echoed in several posts and ISOreads throughout the game.
Not to mention
UNVOTE:
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Post Post #331 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:41 pm

Post by Vincent2128 »

In post 313, Vincent2128 wrote:
@Mod: I will be on vacation in New Zealand from the 31st to the 11th, if you don't want to wait for me to come back then feel free to replace me.

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Post Post #332 (ISO) » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:07 pm

Post by Fishythefish »

In post 327, hiplop wrote:i have yet to make a mountain out of a molehill, folks.

@Rhinox: I can't see your scum-hiplop posting this in reply to a long account of why your interaction is town v town. If he's flailed his way into an argument after screwing up with his fake reads, he must
know
he's made some mistake, and must be itching to withdraw. I'm not saying he'd go "yeah, you're right, unvote", but he'd at least weaken his position. This doubling down is the not the move of a scared scumbag.

@hiplop: I'm going to reply to the post itself, but don't have the time right now.
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Post Post #333 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:12 am

Post by kortul »

Finally i had time at work to do analysis, make relevant ISOs and reassess my reads.

Lastsurvivor
- town. Most of the time i agree with his logic, i really like the activity i see, and so far i have same scum reads. I don't agree with some of his town reads, but that is natural.

Fishythefish
- leaning town. I have similar view on almost all of his scum reads, and i admire his valiant attempt to make a deep analysis of Rhinox vs hiplop, i don't see scum doing it on day 1.

Sleepless Assassin
- neutral, leaning town. My read on him actually changed to a better side. It is more like overall impression, not that much to analyse yet, but i like those ISOs he did.

Rhinox
- neutral, leaning town. I really like his emotions and thoughts in #54, he had good questions and comments in some of his farther posts, but then he went into a clinch with hiplop, for "the vote switch for the reasons given, and reads that aren't explained or supported by his iso". I actually see that vote switch as not a big deal, and reads changes are not extreme.

hiplop
- neutral, slightly leaning town. He is a bit erratic, but feels natural. He is listening, adjusted his reads on SA, DDD, Nacho, yet is heavy locked on Rhinox for gut feeling and "trying pretty hard to paint me as scum". Some of the changes are instant, some gradual, like his read change on DDD:
218: "DDD feels independently scummy, some for his lurking, some for his actual posts."
272: "I used "maybe even DDD"...because my only thought on him is hes kinda lurky."
280: "DDD is based off of lurking. Its not a very strong tell. Very weak, infact."
320: "It was more of a case that i realized DDD was just lurking, so he moved up to null."

Nachomamma8
- neutral. Not much of a presence, some posts i like, some points i agree with, some disagree.

Vincent2128
- neutral, slightly leaning scum. Not much of a presence, too much of egocentricity, and i don't really understand his post 330 and unvote.

DDD
- neutral, slightly leaning scum. Before ISO all i could remember on him was "sitting on Nacho", after ISO i can add "Amished-tell". Not much to analyse. I remember him being more all over the place, but he was an IC in that game.

4nxi3ty
- slightly leaning scum. I don't agree with his thoughts, logic, and don't like votes without explanations, yet i know i cannot rely on his whole behavior (meta research, done in another game).

theomoaner
- leaning scum. My read on this slot was the same, and i am not impressed with theomoaner so far to change it.

funkybike1
- leaning scum. Said everything before, nothing changed.

Alicewondering
- scum. There is no need to repeat the points of Lastsurvivor and Fishythefish, after going through ISO several times i come to conclusion that they are valid. I don't like inconsistencies in what she is saying and what is is doing:
In post 95, Alicewondering wrote:Why vote for someone you don't think is scum?

In post 311, Alicewondering wrote:- Scum tend to be rather wishy washy about their reads.

In post 329, Alicewondering wrote:At the moment, I'm more interested in DDD. He's showed very little effort in scumhunting,
which is not necessarily a scumtell
, but it is weird to me how he tunneled Nacho for so long, especially considering his case wasn't that great. He hasn't posted much more about his scumreads, even when asked.

VOTE: DDD
Your scumread (theomoaner) does 180 on you, and instead of questioning him you switch to someone, you are not even sure is scummy?


UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alicewondering

theomoaner
, can you explain your thought process behind your 180 on Alice? In one day you went from
"Her posts feel like "the voice of reason". She seems to be analysing what others are posting and to try to help others think through their ideas (for example post 148). I can't see scum doing this."
to a vote on her. I agree with the result, but don't understand the process yet.

I ignored
Rhinox vs hiplop
for a time, because i was pretty sure this will die soon. Since this isn't the case, i think that
both of you should take a break for a time
, look around for other suspects, and reassess the reads on each other.
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Post Post #334 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:35 am

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

In post 317, Fishythefish wrote:Oh, and @DDD: what is an Amished-tell? And fair enough re: my play in this game.


Amished @ Open 193 wrote:For those of you that don't know what's going on; I've basically come up with a scumtell that if you *criticize* who you replaced in; you're scum. This is a refinement from what I had it (if you read your replacement at all you were scum); but this seems to cover all the instances where I've seen/remember it. If you're town, you really don't have to worry about your predecessor as you know they're town; but if you think that they're scummy; then you're scum. As town, you know that you're not scummy and don't deserve criticism at all.


How have you never run into this, it's one of the more reliable scumtells I've seen, not perfect but pretty damn reliable.
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Post Post #335 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:56 am

Post by Rhinox »

Well I still think "hurr I unvoted my #1 suspect to vote my #2 suspect because its easier and more convenient" is a scum motivated action but I can see I'm not really getting anywhere. I've actually done my best to keep my posting with hiplop as much on my suspicions and questions as possible and it was over as soon as soon as hiplop starting adhoming and not really addressing anything I was saying, so... (kinda weird kortal jumping in now telling us to back off since the argument wasn't going away, when, its, kinda already gone away)

Looking at others, I don't really think alice or funky are scum. Maybe themoaner and/or vincent but it seems kinda lazy to go after them now. I still have this gut feeling about 4nxi3ty being scum I can't explain, and DDD hasn't impressed me at all. I think nacho is town, and I feel a lot better about fishy now. LS and SA keeping running together in my mind but I don't feel anything bad about either of them.

So, thats where I'm at.

vote: vincent
I guess.
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Post Post #336 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:36 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

In post 329, Alicewondering wrote:Well, LS, since you seem so interested in a response, I'll humor you just this once.


Thanks!
Alice wrote:
You are avoiding conflict 100% by saying "Lol you're wrong LALALALALALALA."


I'm pretty sure this creates more conflict than posting a proper defense. I'm not really all
that
interested in defending myself right now. I almost always get wrongly accused of being scum, but I haven't been mislynched yet.


Yes, this is true, it does create more conflict. However,
you
are not the one creating conflict by avoiding it. Others are. You are avoiding conflict. You haven't been lynched yet? Well, most people that defend themselves haven't been lynched. Ergo, I would become more interested in defending myself if I were you.

Alice wrote:
Isn't it possible that Hip just changed his reads? Did you not realize this when you voted him? Why do you enjoy changing your views so freaking much?


Misrep here. It's not that hip chnaged his reads, he lied about what he said about his reads previously. That was why I voted him. Changing reads/votes is fine, lying about previous reads is not.
fishy
should this point.


Where did he lie about his reads? The way I'm reading it, Hip's reads changed and you were the one misrepping Hip.

@DDD: FTR, in every game I've seen amished tell in, that person was town. But that's not really a lot of games, so meh.

@Rhinox: Why is Alice town? I'm not gonna attack you; I genuinely want to know.

@Everyone who has expressed discontent with the Alice wagon: You better start convincing everyone why your vote is scum, or else we aren't gonna get anything done.
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Post Post #337 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:48 pm

Post by Fishythefish »

I'm not really in a fit state to post, but there I hope I'm better than nothing.

@DDD: my insticnt is that that tell doesn't work. As scum or as town, I stress massively about my replacee. I replace in a lot, and I'm really worried about the situation of replacing in to a town slot where the previous occupant is really scummy. I never even slightly think "he was town, so all his actions must be reasonable" - town do unreasonable and scummy things. Possibly I'm not the typical replacement, but I'm struggling with the notion that replacements find their slots beyond criticism.

@Rhinox: can you give a more detailed analysis of Alice? I think that some of the points against her are fairly compelling, and I don't really see why you'd think she was town.
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Post Post #338 (ISO) » Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:53 pm

Post by Vincent2128 »

In post 335, Rhinox wrote:
vote: vincent
I guess.

You guess?
That's not very solid reasoning for a vote.
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Post Post #339 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:25 am

Post by funkybike1 »

VOTE: Alicewondering - You're giving horrible, inconsistent reads.
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Post Post #340 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:14 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

In post 339, funkybike1 wrote:VOTE: Alicewondering - You're giving horrible, inconsistent reads.


What do my wagonmates think of this?
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Post Post #341 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:14 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

(Anyone else can answer too if they want, but I specifically want their input)
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Post Post #342 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:14 am

Post by kortul »

funkybike1
, that's all you have to say after the week of absence? No own thoughts behind your first non-RVS vote, no answers to a previous questions?

Now my second and third scum reads are on the same wagon on my strongest scum read. Either this is an extreme case of bussing, or i am wrong about at least one of them. I will wait for the explanation from
theomoaner
to my question and the reaction and answers from
Alicewondering
, before reassessing my reads and conclusions. I really doubt i will get input from funkybike1, since he is ignoring most of the questions. Actually, i will just meta him, maybe this is his usual behavior...
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Post Post #343 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:27 am

Post by Fishythefish »

In post 340, Lastsurvivor wrote:
In post 339, funkybike1 wrote:VOTE: Alicewondering - You're giving horrible, inconsistent reads.


What do my wagonmates think of this?

I hate it. funky pops up and votes Alice with no explanation - it feels like he thinks he can get away with the vote just because other people are voting for similar reasons. It's scummy as hell. He also continues to ignore all the questions that people have asked him.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: funkybike

@funky: If you're town, you need to try harder. Answer questions, and give reasons for your vote.
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Post Post #344 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:05 am

Post by Alicewondering »

In post 330, Vincent2128 wrote:Under pressure - Find alternative target?
No.
And your reason has been echoed in several posts and ISOreads throughout the game.
Not to mention
UNVOTE:

Was this directed towards me?
Why did you unvote?

In post 335, Rhinox wrote:Maybe themoaner and/or vincent but it seems kinda lazy to go after them now.

o_o Why is Vincent scum, and if you think it was lazy to go after him, why did you vote him? You don't seem very convinced.

Dude, LS, part of the reason I'm not interested in defending myself is that most of your points are valid. Sure, I haven't put in that much thought and effort into this game. I can't argue with those valid points. Nevertheless, I am still not scum, and it would be a waste of time to discredit what are valid points. All I can do is try to do a better job hunting scum.

In post 339, funkybike1 wrote:VOTE: Alicewondering - You're giving horrible, inconsistent reads.

Oh, did you have anything of your own to say? Which horrible, inconsistent reads am I giving? Who are your scumreads? Funky, you're not making yourself look any better.

I still want a list of reads from
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Post Post #345 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:05 am

Post by hiplop »

VOTE: Alice

mostly because of the post where he was talking about my vote switch, it was awkward as fuck.

Plus im bandwagonning, but that reason is why im doing said act
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Post Post #346 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:30 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

K everyone Alice is at L-1 if I've counted correctly.


EDIT: Nvm, with Fishy's unvote Alice is at L-2.

Funky's vote definitely leaves me feeling uncomfortable. My biggest problem with a Funky lynch is that it leaves us with practically no information if he comes out town.

@Alice: Weren't you telling me I was wrong when I posted my case though? So now the points are valid?

Also, I find it really hard to buy that you're actually scumhunting since you don't have a vote on anyone. What you're doing now looks like questioning with no real purpose, which we really don't have time for this close to the deadline.
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Post Post #347 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:04 am

Post by hiplop »

goddamn, alice's latest post feels town.
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Post Post #348 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:27 am

Post by 4nxi3ty »

okay I took a look at the cases agains alice and don't find them very compelling, definitely nothing lynchworthy imo.

The only thing that struck me as odd was the "loldefense" followed up by "ls points are vaild". Alice, which specific points were valid?

@Fishy, how does funkybike's vote affect your read of alice?
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Post Post #349 (ISO) » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:29 am

Post by kortul »

Alicewondering
, do you really think that DDD is scum or just interested in his reads? And why do you question funkybike1, but ignore theomoaner?

I really want to understand your logic.

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