NY 150: Mob Money Mafia GAME OVER

[kondi2424]

If you need to know, it was because of Pine.

[mcqueen]

If you need to know, it was because of Pine.

(sigh) kondi2424 and Pine are scumbuddies. Nothing seemed to be wrong in the thread, so it must be out-of-thread, and the only possible way of this happening, is if they were scumbuddies.

Now can we all vote Pine, and serve him what he deserves, aka death?

[kondi2424]

You can stop gaming the system now. I'm going to stop posting, because it was an ongoing game.

By the way guys mcqueen is probably scum

[mcqueen]

You can stop gaming the system now. I'm going to stop posting, because it was an ongoing game.

By the way guys mcqueen is probably scum

I'm not scum, but Pine is.

[T-Bone]

No discussing other on-going games please. This line of discussion should stop. Kondi you requested replacement and since you intend to replace please stop posting in the thread. Thank you.

[Oversoul]

Eh... I'm not really willing to go look into their current games to see if they have any connections, but I think this makes Kondi's slot town.

[Oversoul]

Also, the current wagons suck.

We need to address this and start by going after Bunny lover again.


VOTE: Bunnylover

I really am at a loss for who to go after, but mod can we have some prods on Andy, Mastin, Kise, and Pizza?

[Andycyca]

No need to prod, I'm here. It's really difficult for me to keep up with this posting rhythm. A post coming right now...

[mcqueen]

Also, the current wagons suck.

We need to address this and start by going after Bunny lover again.


VOTE: Bunnylover

I really am at a loss for who to go after, but mod can we have some prods on Andy, Mastin, Kise, and Pizza?

Why do you think we should go after Bunnylover, again, other then, "the current wagons suck?"

[T-Bone]

Knox replaces Pizzadudes7

[Andycyca]

'Cause if both are "Yes," I want Damon_Gant to get in here and Bah his Night 1 results to us.

You're no newbie, this actually baffles me, but is irrelevant to the game itself.

---

PSA: the following post has been divided up with spoiler tags as to make reading easier. Please read all of it, thank you.

Instead, I proppose we should judge them by their actions and not by their re/actions under a "neighbor lens".

Ok, then we should all be voting Pine.

I always take cases in the form of "we all should xxx" with a grain of salt. The McQueen+Pine ISO shows me that MQ doesn't actually talk (and vote) about Pine until #286 (granted, maybe nobody talked about Pine during D1 because he wasn't around) and hasn't stopped since.

Let's see this one more time (and please correct me if I'm wrong).

Pine's

case boils down to:

Spoiler: Pine's POV

1. Claiming he's a neighbor with BL (Pre-Orcatiger thread IIRC)
   
   1. BL's posts and behavior in their QT (which we can't see even if it does exist) indicate that BL is scum or suspicious, quoting Pine:
      ...Bunny treated me in our QT as if I were already confirmed Town even before the game started. That is not a Town reaction, Town Neighbors should be suspicious as fuck of their neighbors...
      (source: #249)
      
   2. Therefore it seems more likely that the neighbor pair is town-scum
   
   
2. If the neighbor pair was town-town, scum could've easily (night?)killed one, and cast suspicion on the other one the following day and maybe top with a mislynch (#283 and #289)
   
3. BB says BL isn't covering for him and uses BL's arguments to defend himself (#291)
   
4. Today, Pine has voted for BL (#242) and then BB (#281)

MQ's

recent case is:

Spoiler: MQ's POV

1. A vote on BBM, based on meta and current playstyle (#260 and #277)
   
2. A vote on Pine, based on "Pine's odor" (#286), explained further in #294
   
   1. Pine's argument (number 2 above) is unbelievable because, given the choice, scum would rather lynch a claimed cop than a claimed neighbor
   
   
3. Pine might've wanted to expose BL, mislynch her and then claim that the neighbor pair is t-t after all (#391)
   
4. A meta-argument: kondi's replacement (asked for in #376) was "caused" by Pine (#400). Since nothing seemed to be wrong between them in thread "
   the only possible way of this happening, is if they were scumbuddies.
   " (quote from #401).

---

Now, let's see both of them:

Spoiler: Pine analysis

• I still don't know why I should believe a neighbor claim (or any other, for that matter) without proof, in a closed setup (see BL's post 300).
  
• I kind of agree with BL and MQ: it's a pretty weak argument. First of all because scum wouldn't know if there's a neighbor pair without a claim and/or investigation result, therefore making it a very unlikely strategy for scum. Also, because MQ is right in that, given two claims of equal validity, a rational scum team should try to kill a cop over a neighbor (or, in general, the most powerful Town Powerrole);
  
• BBM had a pretty good argument in #290: the supposed difference between BBM's (or anyone's) town and scum playstyles still hasn't been explained. More on this later
  *
  and BBM did state that he didn't read the precrash thread in #10 (if he actually did or not is a matter we will never know for sure)
  
• Something that bothers me: the fact that all the neighbor pair/scum strategy talk comes
  after
  your vote switch from BL to BBM

Spoiler: MQ's analysis

• I don't buy almost all meta arguments (see below), so this first one is null to me.
  
• The second one is true: I also don't think scum would lynch a cop over a neighbor
  
• The fourth one irks me. There could be lots of out-of-this-game situations that could lead to this (I could say that they know each other IRL and are now fighting for the same girl and don't want to know anything about the other one. Without stalking and/or having more information, this one could be a valid theory. Be careful with you getting tunnel vision

---

*

Spoiler: Andy, on Metagaming

Meta is, IMO, a

very hard

game to play, as it should be based upon

many

different mafia games, with equally diverse situations. Meta used to be a much stronger card when the userbase was smaller, with many people playing with the same forummates in many different games (and even more important in IRL mafia when you can account for a lot more things than just the words of a past game).

In a forum-based mafia game like this, rational discourse is very important and I call on what I've learned from the sciences (another system based on rational discourse) and apply it here. Simply put: you can't use a single data point/source to confirm a trend; to even begin to believe in BBM's (or anyone else's) different playstyles I'd need to either: a) have played with him in many different games and/or b) read many different games and run a detailed

a posteriori

analysis of his methods.

BTW, option (a) is always easier and better, as you can see not only how the other person played, but how he impacted you. By the time the game's finished, half of this analysis is already done. That, and the fact that I don't have time to properly read more than 1 game at a time is why I don't use and/or believe in meta-based arguments unless there's some easy to digest proof.

---

That's pretty hilarious. McQueen calling someone - anyone - a noob

Exactly. So go ahead and laugh at yourself, noob.

Get off my lawn, both of you

[mastin2]

Not here for long; have to leave again soon. I must say (and it wouldn't surprise me to learn I'm not the only one feeling this way), in this game, I'm kinda feeling a little bit...well, apathetic.

I might check again who was pushing for a Damon lynch D1 after his claim, though; that might get me an idea of what direction to go in.

[mcqueen]

Pine's argument (number 2 above) is unbelievable because, given the choice, scum would rather

lynch

a claimed cop than a claimed neighbor

They'd

nightkill

the cop, over the neighbor.

P-Edit - @mastin2 - I didn't believe Damon_Gant's claim, and I at first I kept my vote on Damon_Gant, but I later switched, for reasons including I didn't want to lynch a claimed cop, it was too risky. But alas, he was nightkilled anyway. But I fucking want his results from last night, but we won't get them, until post-game.

[knox]

Hey there everyone, I'm replacing Pizzadudes7.
Just going to read up on the game and post when I've got a good idea of what's going on. Seems like it's going to be a little confusing because you lost some pages in the crash but what can you do.
Will catch up as best as I can.

[Kise]

I think I'm taking a break from the site after this game. Just not into it like I used to be.

Also, the current wagons suck.

We need to address this and start by going after Bunny lover again.

What do we get from that, as any alignment Bunny would flip? It lost steam and I'm more convinced Pine is just tunneling. Can you also explain why the wagons suck?

Townie tingles coming from Nacho too. I'm seeing some chainsawwing from Sly. Still ain't getting nothing from andy's post.

What do you need, matt?

Vote: andy

[Oversoul]

I think I'm taking a break from the site after this game. Just not into it like I used to be.

I'm sorry to hear that.

I consider the reasoning used against BBmolla to be faulty and the people on his wagon going after the wrong person just like the people voting Pine and Nacho are going after the wrong person since no one looks particularly scummy.

The wagons look like the people on them need for there to be a wagon..

[chkflip]

*screams into a pillow*

And nothing of significance happened that day.

[BBmolla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

[T-Bone]

Vote Count

BBmolla - 5 (Nacho, Twistedspoon, Mastin, Pine, Chkflip)
Nacho - 1 (SlySly)
Pine - 2 (Mcqueen, BBmolla)
Bunnylover - 1 (Oversoul)
Andycyca - 1 (Kise)

Not Voting - Projectmatt, Pizzadudes7, Andycyca, Bunnylover, Knox

With 15 Alive, it takes 8 to Lynch

Deadline is Sunday April 8th, 11:59pm EST

[chkflip]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Nope. Pine tomorrow, depending on your flip. Sorry; thanks for playing.

[BBmolla]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Nope. Pine tomorrow, depending on your flip. Sorry; thanks for playing.

Whatever, if we're lynching me let's decide it quickly so I can claim.

[mcqueen]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pine

I prefer this over BL lynch.

We have four days folks, we need to figure out who we're lynching so we can deal with claiming.

Nope. Pine tomorrow, depending on your flip. Sorry; thanks for playing.

Whatever, if we're lynching me let's decide it quickly so I can claim.

No. We're lynching Pine. He needs death - today, before any more trouble is caused.

[kondi2424]

T-Bone, I replaced out. I know you love me, but I won't come back to a prod.

[T-Bone]

But what if I offered you cookies?

I am seeking your replacement, I mass proded everyone and accidentally you as well.

[Bunnylover]

Sorry for my absent, a little hectic in my life atm.

Pine -

I forgot to ask, is it possible to paraphrase or quote things from the QT or is that against the guidelines? I can't find anything regarding it in the game rules. I think it would be a gigantic help if you could paraphrase some of the things Bunny said, but yeah

This is what I said summary (in case I'm not allowed to copy+paste):
I claimed I was not scum.
Wonder why Pine was so jumpy to start calling someone scum
I explained what would happen if we assume one of us is scum, saying that the QT will be pointless
Then said that I would like to have someone to reflect ideas off, then decided on his alignment.
Thats all I said.