Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (5) - Voidedmafia, Debonair Danny DiPietro, rhinox, hiplop, Lastsurvivor
Lastsurvivor (4) - nachomamma8, 4nxi3ty, DCLXVI, fishythefish
Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - Alicewondering, Macrophage, Sleepless Assassin
Alicewondering (1) - kortul

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is April 9th, 7PM PST

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, why is DCL town?

Entrance post. Criticizes the people pushing the main wagon and brings up how funky was exactly like the malee/theo. Two things that scum will generally never do because it brings a lynch away from town and draws attention to themselves.

Can you say what you think is most scummy about him?

His explanations for his actions all sound fake. Handiest example is his response to my initial case on him, which was this:

@Nacho: Hum. If your vote is only based off of a joke I've been making based off of Rhinox's post 254 (read the last sentence and his use of the word "placate," and then look at my avatar and scroll down to #258 where I first used the joke if you don't get it), and a slight disappointment that I haven't changed my vote in awhile, then hopefully you won't mind if I disregard your vote for now.

My original case was that he had been sitting for Malee for too long, and had been asking for a lot of content, but not delivering. This response not only misreps my case, but brushes it off completely. LastSurvivor's explanation for this post is that he agreed that he had been sitting on Malee and he was doing ISOs that day anyways so I was going to see his protown light shine through. If you believe someone has genuine concerns, then why brush them off? Or, better yet, if you agree with problems someone raises against you, why the hell would you misrepresent them?

[Nachomamma8]

Second: I mistyped/lied when I said that her points about DDD had nothing to do with me unvoting.

BUT you're still misinterpreting the post. I saw Alice's general posting after I posted my case and started doubting myself. Basically I started doubting myself when she actually replied to my case. Then I looked back on my case and realized it was crap and unvoted.

Yes, DDD had something to do with it, but it was only a part. If you think of it in that context, I'm not sure how what I originally said doesn't make sense. I think you're just being too literal with your words.

You mistyped/lied. Okay. Can you answer the original piece, then? Why were Alice's points about DDD special when we heard them all a thousand times before?

Yeah, I got that. It took three versions of the story to get here, but at least we're finally here.

[4nxi3ty]

Just in case it isn't clear to everyone: We're lynching either funky or theo today. If you aren't on either of their wagons, stop lollygagging and hop on.

I'd rather you hop on funky, but you know.

Hasn't mentioned, interacted with, or pressured funky's replacement at all; instead he has continued to push the lynch of the person with the most attention.

What does everyone think of Macro's claim? Some of us seem to find it a town tell, but I'm not so sure

This is what I was getting at earlier about him using questions to mask actions as a pro-town stance. The main motivation of that statement is to place doubt into macro's claim being a towntell.

His question has similar motivations as this comment:

I basically made Alice the center of discussion

Last is trying to portray himself as this uber-towny who generates all sorts of discussion.

[Lastsurvivor]

My original case was that he had been sitting for Malee for too long, and had been asking for a lot of content, but not delivering. This response not only misreps my case, but brushes it off completely. LastSurvivor's explanation for this post is that he agreed that he had been sitting on Malee and he was doing ISOs that day anyways so I was going to see his protown light shine through. If you believe someone has genuine concerns, then why brush them off? Or, better yet, if you agree with problems someone raises against you, why the hell would you misrepresent them?

How does this prove I'm scum though? If I were scum, do you really think I'd react the way I did to your case? No, because it would just make you angry when a simple "I'm gonna do ISOs and 'get off the pot' later on today" would have sufficed.

Reacting to your case that way was a stupid thing to do, yeah. But there's no way that doing that blatantly misrepping a case when you don't have to would further a scum's agenda. If you can find the scum intent behind this point, then by all means enlighten me. Otherwise, you've just proven that I was being a dickwad that day.

You mistyped/lied. Okay. Can you answer the original piece, then? Why were Alice's points about DDD special when we heard them all a thousand times before?

I really only liked her points because I agreed with them. There's nothing really "special" about them. But if you look at the original post...

@alice: As much as I agree with your points on DDD (hence why I was doubting my read and switched my vote), you're not going to get enough momentum for a lynch before deadline. So you should totally vote funky too.

The intent of the post is not "Oh, hey, your DDD points are really unique and special." It's "You should get off that DDD wagon and vote Funky." So you're still misinterpreting the post. I'm not thinking as highly of the DDD points as you think I am.

-----

Hasn't mentioned, interacted with, or pressured funky's replacement at all; instead he has continued to push the lynch of the person with the most attention.

I've been defending myself against you/nacho and barely attacking macro. Lousy excuse, I guess, but attacking DCL isn't really high on my priorities right now.

This is what I was getting at earlier about him using questions to mask actions as a pro-town stance. The main motivation of that statement is to place doubt into macro's claim being a towntell.

Others (Hiplop e.g) have said that that macro's claim is not a town tell. There are two sides to the issue. I'm not trying to "place doubt," into anything. I'm trying to get people's opinions since not everyone has put in their input.

Last is trying to portray himself as this uber-towny who generates all sorts of discussion.

Err, that's a broad expansion. I say, "I moved Alice into the center of discussion" and you take it as "LS tries to portray himself as uber-town who generates all sorts of discussion."
Anyway, prove that I didn't move Alice into the center of discussion.

4n's case seems to consist of "LS is pretending to be pro town!!!!" Nothing that proves I'm scum.
Nacho's case proves that I'm a prick, I guess. Not that I'm scum though.

@Macro: How many games of mafia have you played before (roughly)?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Hate to say it, but I've gone from liking the wagons we had to really disliking the ones we have now. I've gotten a town read on Macro and always had one on Last.

[Fishythefish]

What do you now think of LS's previous posting that led you to believe he was town?

Early on, I thought he sounded like he believed what he said and was trying to catch scum. I can still see where I was coming from, but I don't see anything very townish in his posting after that.

The original case on LS doesn't do too much for me - sitting on a Malee read made quite a bit of sense in the context of LS's posting, and his lack of content wasn't particularly bad, and the hypocrisy of asking for content is not at all scummy. The reaction is bad, though. LS's eventual explanation:
- He was already planning some rereads.
- Nacho's vote made him go - internally - "yeah, that's fair, but I'm going to do some rereading anyway so it's ok"
- He did some rereading, and produced some content.
But I don't think that ties in well with the actual post:

@Nacho: Hum. If your vote is only based off of a joke I've been making based off of Rhinox's post 254 (read the last sentence and his use of the word "placate," and then look at my avatar and scroll down to #258 where I first used the joke if you don't get it), and a slight disappointment that I haven't changed my vote in awhile, then hopefully you won't mind if I disregard your vote for now.

@Kortul: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I got it right. If she were talking about her own posts, wouldn't she say "That's very townish to say,

and

it's genuine"? If I'm understanding what you're saying, anyway.

Gonna spend the afternoon doing ISOs. Just replying to stuff directed at me.

This isn't the post of someone who thinks that Nacho has a point. It's too dismissive. If someone has a point and you're going to improve on that score, you should admit it. But failing that, you at least don't call their vote a joke.

Then LS posts some content, and then this:

The hungry wolf comment was quoted as an example of one of the times you demanded more content. That would've been clear to you had you read my posting. As for "slight disappointment", it's more than that. I never suggested it wasn't.

Honest question: Do you really think I haven't been providing content since you've been gone? Your argument's irrelevant ATM.

(Also, don't even think about replying that your prodding made me provide content.)

So, LS knows that Nacho's argument wasn't irrelevant when he made. He

must

also know that what happened could easily be construed as Nacho's prodding making LS provide content. Again, if you agreed with an argument and think you need to do something, you don't do that thing and then call the argument irrelevant.

Can you explain those for me LS? I don't get while you would reply what you did while thinking what you said you were thinking.

I think I'm going to stick with this vote.

@Macro: Hmmm. DDD has done exactly nothing all game. Scummy. Would vote him over you, I think.

[Alicewondering]

Hmm, Nacho, what you're saying makes sense, so I'll have to think on it. While I initially had a leaning scum read on LS earlygame, I revised that into a townread. :\

It looks like we have 2 days till deadline, and Macro should definitely not be lynched. I would probably support a DDD lynch today, though it probably won't happen, so I'm going to look at LS now.

[DCLXVI]

Ok, I posted this last night but I think it deserves a more thorough look this afternoon.

-Fishy and Last survivor have voted for the exact same players the entire game: Sleepless assassin, rhinox, funky/DCL, macro/theo/malee, Alice.
----These 5 players they voted for are the top 5 wagons so far in the game.

Is it just me or is this odd?

I went back through and looked at the situations for each vote.

Fishy 8: RVS vote on

Sleepless assassin.

LS 27: RVS vote on

malee

, calls out malee for flaking in previous game.
Fishy 47: Votes for

Rhinox

, based someone on a meta read.
LS 49: Votes

Rhinox

after he pressured him.
Fishy 56: Unvotes

Rhinox

, says response to LS seems like a town response.
LS 59: Unovtes

Rhinox

, appears like an attempt to appease Rhinox.
Fishy 67: Votes

funkybike

, for not posting much.
LS 72: Votes

Sleepless assassin

, because of sleepless' accusations towards fish.
FIshy 99: Votes

malee

,
Last survivor 160, Votes

malee

Last survivor 298: Votes

alicewondering

Fishy 319: Votes

alicewondering

, wants to be on the wagon.
Fishy 343: Votes

Funkybike

, doesn't like his level of participation.
Last survivor 353: Votes

Funkybike

, because he doesn't like the alicewagon now.
Fishy 390: Votes

theomoaner

,
Fishy 404, Unvotes

theomoaner

Last survivor 442: Votes

Macro

Fishy 451: Votes

Macro

Fishy 470: Unvotes
Fishy 471: Vote

Macro

Fishy 503: Unvotes
Fishy 520: Votes

LS

(bussing perhaps?)

there is a ton of sheeping going both ways between macro and fishy.

-LS sheeps fishy and votes Rhinox: 47,49
-LS sheeps fihsy and unvotes Rhinox:57,59
-Fishy votes malee in 99, LS eventually votes malee 169 once wagon picks up steam.
-Fishy sheeps LS and votes for Alicewondering: 298,319
-LS sheeps fishy and votes funky: 343,353
-Fishy jumps back and forth on macro, LS joins in. 390.404,442,451 some sheeping going both ways here it looks like.

Here is what I don't get though, they never acknowledge each other throughout the game very much. Here are the occasions where they interact. (mostly indirectly)

-LS denies sheeping fishy: 52
-LS Asks SA who is scummier, fishy,malee, or DDD:82
-LS says SA should expand more on the fishy/malee stuff: 119
-LS asks fishy a question about hiplop: 229
-LS calls fishy town in his reads:323
-LS strongly denies sheeping fishy, but admits fishy helped show him Rhinox was town: 434

-Fishy doesn't like the way LS is seeming to try to appease Rhinox: 68
-Fishy lists LS in his townreads: 146
-Fishy says LS is one of his stronger townreads: 156
-Fishy thinks LS lost the argument with Rhinox: 161
-Fishy responds to LS question: 227
-Fishy responds to LS 229 I think: 259
-Fishy again calls LS town: 322
-Fishy calls LS town: 404

-Fishy 520 votes LS:

Some thoughts from this:

-Fishy goes the whole game calling LS town and then proceeds to vote him: WTF? Distancing?

-They almost always have had there votes on the same player. And if one person changes there vote the other is usually quick to follow.

-They have both pushed all the major wagons in the game so far.

-LS has called fishy town all game. He has defended fish and questioned other people pushing of fish.

-Neither has been critical of the other for nearly the entire game.

Bold Prediction-

Fishy and LS are scumbuddies.

They have sheeped each other all game. Defended each other all game. Called each other town the whole game. Yet have had almost no direct interaction. Once the wagon started to go towards LS in the end, fishy started bussing LS.

[DCLXVI]

Something I noticed while going through some ISO's

I was waiting to see IF funky would respond before throwing my thoughts in here. It is certainly by the book to pressure less active players into posting more, but unfortunately this is about all we're going to get from funky. Fortunately, what we're getting matches town-funky more than scum-funky right now. Unfortunately, my scum meta hardcopy vanished in the crash so I can't confirm. But my recollection is that scum funky is more active and involved, whereas town funky lurks and has no idea what to say most of the time. I think funky just has more fun playing scum. Since I can't confirm my meta I'm not going to rely on it 100% the whole game, but I'm probably not going to be interested lynching funky today, espectially if the reason is his activity. If I were a vig though, he'd be at the top of my list.

This makes me think Rhinox is town. I don't see why scum would go to the trouble to look at someone's meta to call them town, when most of the town seems to think that person is scum. I think scum would much rather hop onto a wagon than defend it like this.

[Fishythefish]

Frankly, after you brought that up last night I've been worrying that that conclusion might be drawn if LS flips scum. Our votes are very similar. Mostly it's LS sheeping me. I guess we can talk about it if LS flips scum. Which I hope he does, though it would make me rather dread tomorrow .

For my townread on LS, it was an early game one that kind of got stuck. I realised recently that I haven't really reviewed LS for a while, and my town read on him was rather unjustified. In 322, I think I already was just going "yeah, I've got an LS townread, looks like content, this guy's town" - the "length=town" fallacy combining with confirmation bias. 404 was just me restating that to advise a replacement to make a will - no new information there.

For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?

For myself, I don't really know what to think of the voting patterns. If LS is town, it's an almighty coincidence. If he's scum, it doesn't feel like buddying - it's not like he actually addressed things to me.

Possibly

it could be a deliberate attempt to create a link, but that's not actually what scum do.

[DCLXVI]

For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?

Sometimes wagons are too good to be true. Having spent some more time looking at the wagons here is what I think of them.

Malee/theomoaner/Macro:

Malee got nailed for a mistake she made in RVS thinking that someone had voted when they hadn't. Nacho did the same thing but no one has been on his case. The face that Malee got confused after presusure and Nacho didn't probably contributed to that. Also the level of involvement wasn't that great from Malee which didn't help her case. This is more a case of Stupidity/forgetfulness does not equal scumminess.

Funkybike:

This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt. If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.

Alicewondering:

I'm having a hard time understanding the reasons for this wagon, what I did notice is that both you[fishy] and LS abandoned it to jump onto the next wagon. LS was the first on the alicewagon, you were the third and you sheeped, theo and LS in voting Alice. Then you jump off when Alice gets to L-2, LS jumps off when Alice gets to L-2 again. Had you both followed through on you vehement "alice is scum" reads, Alice likely would have been lynched.

The fact is that both you and LS have seemed rather opportunistic in jumping on the person that is "most scummy" at the moment rather than actually trying to get someone lynched. The scumhunting being done by both of you feels fake. You both leave before a lynch can happen each time.

[Lastsurvivor]

This isn't the post of someone who thinks that Nacho has a point. It's too dismissive. If someone has a point and you're going to improve on that score, you should admit it. But failing that, you at least don't call their vote a joke.

I reacted that way because I was being stupid. At this point I really don't know how to boil it down any other way. You and Nacho are looking for some pro-town motive behind that reaction when it's clear that there wasn't other than the fact that I was irritated and felt like being a dick. Nacho's "out of place complimenting" is bad point irritated me and I just decided to dismiss the entire case because of it.

Yeah, it was a brutally stupid thing to do. But why would scum do it? How is scum furthering his agenda by disregarding a case like that? If the above paragraph isn't good enough for you, I ask you to answer those two questions for me.

So, LS knows that Nacho's argument wasn't irrelevant when he made. He must also know that what happened could easily be construed as Nacho's prodding making LS provide content. Again, if you agreed with an argument and think you need to do something, you don't do that thing and then call the argument irrelevant.

I think I've already addressed this above. If not, let me know.

---

I'd still rather lynch Macro today. But to avoid a NL (inb4 4n accuses me of trying to look protown), I'd also support a DDD lynch.

---

I'll reply to DC in my next post, but the case looks pretty lame so far.

[Lastsurvivor]

I'm going to mostly ignore the post where I'm apparently sheeping Fishy because if I do then I'm guessing DC will say I'm defending Fishy. But I will say that most of the reasons that I did a lot of the things I did according to DC are misreps. So there's that.

Anyway.

Alicewondering: I'm having a hard time understanding the reasons for this wagon, what I did notice is that both you[fishy] and LS abandoned it to jump onto the next wagon. LS was the first on the alicewagon, you were the third and you sheeped, theo and LS in voting Alice. Then you jump off when Alice gets to L-2, LS jumps off when Alice gets to L-2 again. Had you both followed through on you vehement "alice is scum" reads, Alice likely would have been lynched.

Yeah, I feel like I've explained this three times, but I'll do it again.

I hopped off the Alice wagon because I realized that Alice was town. Simple as that. Yes, if I had kept on going with the alice is scum thing, she may have gotten lynched. Good thing I didn't.

[Voidedmafia]

DCL: You're ignoring the two other wagons on Macro spot, yknow.

LS: It's a little disconcerting that you're brushing what appears to be some pretty strong connections between you two. Do you at least agree that, the strength of the connections aside, they're actually valid?

[DCLXVI]

DCL: You're ignoring the two other wagons on Macro spot, yknow.

Could you explain a bit more? I'm not sure what you are referring to...

@LS, can you at least respond, I didn't spend 3 hours ISOing you and fishy to get a "no comment"

I don't have any intention of doing the OMG he responded therefore he is scum argument against you. Do you agree or disgagree with what I saw. If you think I'm wrong say so, but ignoring is more scummy imho than responding.

[Fishythefish]

For pushing the major wagons - yes. They were pretty good wagons. Lots I've started or pushed before they became popular (Rhinox, Malee, funky mostly). Some others I've sheeped on. Is any of that scummy?

Sometimes wagons are too good to be true. Having spent some more time looking at the wagons here is what I think of them.

Malee/theomoaner/Macro:

Malee got nailed for a mistake she made in RVS thinking that someone had voted when they hadn't. Nacho did the same thing but no one has been on his case. The face that Malee got confused after presusure and Nacho didn't probably contributed to that. Also the level of involvement wasn't that great from Malee which didn't help her case. This is more a case of Stupidity/forgetfulness does not equal scumminess.

Funkybike:

This is more of a lurker hunt as opposed to scumhunt. If I had not replaced for Funky I think a lynch on him would be justified.

Alicewondering:

I'm having a hard time understanding the reasons for this wagon, what I did notice is that both you[fishy] and LS abandoned it to jump onto the next wagon. LS was the first on the alicewagon, you were the third and you sheeped, theo and LS in voting Alice. Then you jump off when Alice gets to L-2, LS jumps off when Alice gets to L-2 again. Had you both followed through on you vehement "alice is scum" reads, Alice likely would have been lynched.

The fact is that both you and LS have seemed rather opportunistic in jumping on the person that is "most scummy" at the moment rather than actually trying to get someone lynched. The scumhunting being done by both of you feels fake. You both leave before a lynch can happen each time.

I think funky was more than a lurker hunt, and Malee was scummy, not just forgetful. See my iso.

I think that last paragraph is massively unfair to me. Other than on Alice, I've been early on those wagons - unless my picture of my play is radically wrong, my play just can't be described as opportunistic. Seeing scumminess before other people do is hardly a crime. And yes, I've left before lynches happen. I've changed my mind. Same goes for pretty much everyone.

This isn't the post of someone who thinks that Nacho has a point. It's too dismissive. If someone has a point and you're going to improve on that score, you should admit it. But failing that, you at least don't call their vote a joke.

I reacted that way because I was being stupid. At this point I really don't know how to boil it down any other way. You and Nacho are looking for some pro-town motive behind that reaction when it's clear that there wasn't other than the fact that I was irritated and felt like being a dick. Nacho's "out of place complimenting" is bad point irritated me and I just decided to dismiss the entire case because of it.

Yeah, it was a brutally stupid thing to do. But why would scum do it? How is scum furthering his agenda by disregarding a case like that? If the above paragraph isn't good enough for you, I ask you to answer those two questions for me.

OK, so you felt like a dick and dismissed the case. I can sort of see that, once. But what about the second quote? When you said that Nacho's point was "irrelevant" because you'd posted content, and told him not to think about saying that was a reaction to him. Surely, at that point, you knew that his point hadn't been irrelevant, and that thinking your content was a reaction to him was pretty plausible - so why the dismissal again?

(I hate interacting with someone after people link us. It's so hard not to think about how things look.)

[Lastsurvivor]

@Voided: Between fishy and I? Looking at the list, yeah, there's a connection. But I believe DC is taking that connection and blowing it way out of the water.

@DCL: If you promise not to accuse me of defending Fishy, sure.

You've definitely uncovered a connection. I think Fishy and I vote the same people because we generally have the same scum reads (well, until recently). About the closeness of our hops? I dunno because I never noticed it until you brought it up. Perhaps it was something at a subconscious level? But I don't think I've ever consciously thought "Fishy's unvoting, shit, I guess I better unvote too." I've always been voting/unvoting based on my own changing reads.

@Fishy: Mm, I think you might be misinterpreting me, or I you? Are you referring to this?

Honest question: Do you really think I haven't been providing content since you've been gone? Your argument's irrelevant ATM.

(Also, don't even think about replying that your prodding made me provide content.)

I'm just not sure what you're trying to say. Yeah, I knew the point wasn't irrelevant, as I've said before, but I was annoyed so I decided to dismiss it anyway. I dismissed his argument in #372 for a legitimate reason, however: I had been provided content. And I included the bit in parentheses because I was going to do those ISOs anyway, not because of Nacho's prodding.

I'm not being dense on purpose if you're actually asking something. I really don't understand what you're asking that I haven't already addressed...

[Fishythefish]

Yes, that what's I'm referring to.

IDK. If you accuse someone of not posting content, and they post content, that doesn't mean your argument was irrelevant and dismissing it is still strange.

Bleh. I'm kind of liking LS's responses here. Strike me as town genuinely trying to explain himself after making a mistake. I wish my scumreads didn't keep falling apart.

[Macrophage]

@LS I'm an alt (in case you didn't know already). I've played ~15 games (I think). If any of you work out who I am, I'd rather you didn't tell anyone.

DCL, thanks for your post, and I think some of your points are good, except a couple of them are really strong indications of them not being scumbuddies. Most is the voting for the same people point. Scum would definitely try to avoid this. And obvious defending is usuallly avoided too.

LS: Do you share Fishy's uncomfortable feeling after being linked with someone?

Why do you have a problem with being accused of defending fishy?

[Voidedmafia]

DCL: You're ignoring the two other wagons on Macro spot, yknow.

Why did you only talk about the wagon on Malee and not the ones on Theo and Macro?

[DCLXVI]

Why did you only talk about the wagon on Malee and not the ones on Theo and Macro?

The impression I got is that the wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee. This is why I addressed only the malee wagon in the post I think you are refering to.

[Lastsurvivor]

IDK. If you accuse someone of not posting content, and they post content, that doesn't mean your argument was irrelevant and dismissing it is still strange.

Well, if you accuse someone of not providing content, then they provide content, but you STILL accuse them of not providing content, the argument is irrelevant, no? I wasn't saying that his argument ORIGINALLY was irrelevant. I was saying his argument was irrelevant at that moment (hence the inclusion of "ATM") since I was providing content.

@Macro: 15 games? Mk. I figured you were an alt or at least played off site, but I wanted a number.

I don't really have a problem with interacting with Fishy. I've never really noticed the connection beyond the extent that we vote the same people, so really I think that DCL's just noticed it and decided to create a crazy conclusion based off of it instead of a more logical one. I guess I had a problem with defending him after being linked, which brings me to your next question...

The reason I didn't want to respond to the post and defend Fishy was because I figured DCL was going to use it as ammunition to "link us" together. Basically the paranoid parrot in me thought it was a trap of sorts. Link the two of us together, and then when I attempt to severe the connection, DCL just misconstrues my response and makes the connection tighter. The response I gave didn't really defend Fishy nor can it really be misconstrued, so in hindsight I should have just answered.

[kortul]

One day spent with a family, and almost three pages of discussions to read. My opinion on Nacho skyrocketed, he is consistent, logical, and looks at the problem from different angles. I agree with some of his conclusions, but will have to read the case on Lastsurvivor several times tomorrow, to see whether i will find his actions or intentions scummy. I don't like the fact that he lied about some things before, and admitted that only after extensive questioning from Nacho. Will have to figure out for myself, whether this comes from ego/pride or some scummy motives behind.

@SA - i left the Alice wagon because both funky and theo went there. Now their replacements went elsewhere, so i am back to my strongest suspicion.

@Macto - you have asked about why Malee and theo were scummy, and for comments on your defence.

Malee - first 4 posts were consistent, and then out of nowhere

"But you never said, was your Vincent vote a serious vote? It just seemed very odd, even for a RVS."

. Never before did she mention this while giving explanations, so this new twist was real inconsistent, like trying to make a case stronger. Once she realized that she made a mistake, she just dropped the whole thing. Also, not a single opinion about anybody else (i still believe that in 138 she were talking about her own words being townish).

theomoaner - within 3 relevant posts he managed to make a 180 on Alice and disappear after that, so explanations are lost.

As for your defence, my answer is simple - people do mistakes even when they are scum, otherwise it would be real hard to catch scum. I may be wrong about any of this small cases, but being wrong about both of them is less likely. So i still think the slot is scummy.

Macro, my overall impression about you personally is more positive. I actually like that you didn't jump immediately to a strongest counterwagon (LS). But i don't understand the opinion change on Voidedmafia - will have to reread tomorrow, but if you will explain it again it would be great.

I don't really understand why Alice and Fishy think that after the VT claim Macro is town. I mean, the fact that scum less likely to do a VT claim doesn't instantly make this claim town. If he claimed to be some PR, would you lynch him instead? I see possible PR hunting motives here, which makes me even more suspicious of Alice (and Fishy), at the same time it means that there's chance that i am wrong about Macro after all - PR hunting on a scumbuddy isn't exactly productive.

As for the DDD - my read didn't change, since he isn't exactly posting anything. Right now this would be the less informative flip for the lack of interactions.

It is more than 1 am here, and i am too tired to do any more reading and thinking, will do this with clear head some time tomorrow.

[Voidedmafia]

Why did you only talk about the wagon on Malee and not the ones on Theo and Macro?

The impression I got is that the wagons on Theo and Macro were based mostly off of the wagon on Malee. This is why I addressed only the malee wagon in the post I think you are refering to.

Not entirely true.

While Theo's wagon was admittedly more tied in with malee, there was a valid point against him (the oft-rehashed 180 on Alice).

Macro's wagon is the most displaced from Malee. There's (arguably) the poorly explained joke-vote on me, the whole softclaim-to-VT-claim deal, and his recent 180 on his read on me.