New York 146 Zach's Insane Mafia World (OVER)

[DeasVail]

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

I just realized that it doesn't make sense for MOI to be SK.

VOTE: DeasVail

I'm derping all over the place. PLEASE JOIN ME GUYS. I'll come back and explain if people have questions, but I have to go for now.

Uh yeah, can you explain? I'm making my way through the cached files and as long as I'm interpreting who's who correctly, you've suspected him for some time. (Or maybe that was muffin.)

Did you vote MoI in the first place because you thought he was the serial killer? If that's the case, can you explain your vote on DV? DY stated that he wasn't the serial killer, so are you now doubting DY? Or are you saying that DV is mafia?

DY still seems town to me...long catch up posts which would normally earn you an insta-wagon aside...*going to get used to site differences someday*

Still not impressed with MoI. *this could be because I'm not seeing many original posts but am seeing MoI through the eyes of muffin* Either way...surprised he hasn't been lynched yet.

Still have a town read on Alice, haven't seen Ghostlin - but don't see my read of Magua changing so it doesn't matter. HF still seems good, but shaky. Not very impressed with Thor who was Jon, so I could change my vote to him at deadline if need be.

[Magua]

Let’s be fair – I’m not ‘resisting’ the idea of being investigated. I’m questioning your assumptions in logic.

Yes, but you're doing it in a way that seems to provide no benefit to you, which makes me assume that there is some benefit that I'm just not seeing.

Agreed. However – if it comes to it at deadline will you lynch Red?

I would sooner no lynch than lynch redFF. Seriously.

@ Magua thanks for the posts, I'm going to try to make some sense out of them and post later.

Are you going to thank me for pushing you as today's lynch?

Magua: If you think MoI should be investigated, why aren't you voting him instead? Is Jon really scummier than MoI? After all, MoI is still alive, and we know what that means.

Because regardless of whether MoI is scum or not, I feel that (at least) one of the VTs is scum, and would rather try to find out which one while we still have a mislynch available.

If redFF dies as a town bodyguard, I'm pretty set on lynching Magna. But if redFF dies as scum, then I pretty much don't want to lynch Magna. I expect redFF to die if he's town tonight. So, I don't feel like lynching Magna today.

So at what point do we cross that bridge re: lynching redFF? We're at an even number, and unless there is a two-flip on the horizon, that means we have a potential MyLo scenario. If we mislynch today, that means tomorrow is likely the day before MyLo, and at that point, I think we pretty much have to policy lynch redFF. Are you saying that Alice's result for tonight is worth keeping scum alive?

Yep. Pretty basic reasons why, too. I mean, there's two options:
- redFF is town. Should be obvious why lynching him is bad here.
- redFF is scum. Does he (or his team, etc) kill Alice?
- If yes, then we lynch redFF, and are in the same position as if we'd lynched redFF today -- we lynched redFF and some other person, just in a different order.
- If no, then Alice stays alive. This is good.

Re: DV--funny, I think he's mafia in part because of his interactions with Jason. So...again, plz 'splain.

Day 1 riding the wagon on a watcher until the claim, mostly. Granted, unless you're actually a Mafia FBI Agent, at this point scum wouldn't actually know that there's another killing role out there, but the watcher claim kind of sealed it for Jason because he has to explain how he's alive each Day, and scum would have no clue that there'd be a forced mass claim D3 at that point. You could say that Jason was bussing DeasVail D4, and, I mean, it's not a terrible theory, but it's a lot of work at a point where scum would have to be feeling very uncertain about how things were going to go.

Or, in other words, I would totally expect that sort of thing from Magna, but not really from Jason.

Also, I don't think DV's push on you would come from scum unless you were a buddy, and if you were a buddy I wouldn't expect you to be pushing onto DV. Inception! Etc.

Jon_h61 replaced Thor665. I don't see Thor's posts as being incredibly town. I see Thor-town as being a lot more active and dynamic with his vote, whereas here Thor pretty much had his vote on town the entirety of D1 and D2, except for one vote count where he's voting Magna.

[Nobody Special]

Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?

I just don't know what to do any more.

unvote

Vote: Alice

[Magua]

Can we not play these types of games with < 48 hours until deadline? That'd be great.

[Tammy]

Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?

I just don't know what to do any more.

unvote

Vote: Alice

*snap* Focus *snap*

[Nobody Special]

Just tell me who to vote, then.

[Tammy]

Who do you want to vote for?

[Nobody Special]

Scum (or the SK, if there is one).

[DeasVail]

Ws going to say stuff about why I think DY's scum, but I've already said it:

I really thought he was scummy pre-crash, and his scumread of me also makes me think he is scum. I don't think he would have it as town, and I really doubt he'd be so consistent with it. He's familiar with my meta and I'd expect him not to be completely wrong about me. He even says "the way DV is acting, I am so very, very down for giving him rope"- This comes after my fakeclaim comment and I think town-DY would consider me more likely town after my response to Jason's claim rather than more likely scum.

To add:

I'm pretty sure DY would expect me scum to be pro-town and avoid doing stuff that could be considered scummy. This has not been me this game and I have no idea how he is sustaining his scumread on me.

[Zachrulez]

12th vote count of day 5:

Nobody Special - 3 (redFF, Jon_h61, Tammy)
DarthYoshi - 2 (DeasVail, MagnaofIllusion)
redff - 1 (havingfitz)
Jon_h61 - 1 (Magua)
MagnaofIllusion - 1 (DarthYoshi)
DeasVail - 1 (Alicewondering)
Alicewondering - 1 (Nobody Special)

Not Voting: ()

With 10 alive it's 6 to lynch.

Day 5 will end no later than Friday, April 13th at 6pm CST

[havingfitz]

Re post 422...Tammy, I was investigated by DY as well and I'm no SK.

If you [Magua] don't want to...fine....everyone else vote red please. BTW...I see the logic about red dying if Alice dies but I'd rather hit the SK now rather than after he's been allowed to make a kill BECAUSE HE FINALLY ISN'T BEING JAILKEPT! Just an opinion mind you.

If you'd rather hit the SK now rather than later, why are you advocating a redFF lynch?

Huh? I would rather hit the SK sooner than later and that is exactly why I am advocating a redFF lynch.

Do you think redFF-SK claimed bodyguard, knowing that it would mean he could not get to endgame alive?

Who knows what people are thinking when they feel compelled to make a fakeclaim…especially as early as we claimed in this game? Can someone confirm who claimed their role first? If redFF knew zMuff could out him as a non_VT or that DY would claim FBI, who knows the thinking that led to a bodyguard claim. Considering we’ve had two NKs in a row on players red supposedly protected…I’d say his claim hasn’t worked out very well no matter how you look at it. And if we/he were lucky enough to get rid of all the mafia before his claim was proven to be bogus the fact he was a claimed bodyguard would not have been an indictment of him in any way.

Because here's what I believe: I believe that tomorrow, either redFF-town will be dead, or Alice-town will be dead and then we'll lynch redFF.

Your way simply ensures that Alice will be dead, regardless of whether redFF is town or not.

I get this. I realize it is a risk (assuming redFF is telling the truth). I do not see him as telling the truth…and I must say…his defense on this day has been pretty lurkish/weak. From the POV that red IS the SK…I view his death as preventing an additional townie from dying tonight. And assuming that additional townie is NOT DY….then we have IMO another even more confirmed townie [DY] than, you [Magua].

DY: I don't really know, probably more to annoy fitz than anything else.

I want to believe you're town. I really do, but I just can't.

Sorry.

Magua: I don't think that using fitz voting me along with jason is a good towntell because I think there was a decent wagon on me before that which I'm pretty sure had Alice, Lowell, NS, maybe someone else.

I'll lynch DY, Fitz or Jon today.

So DV...based on your continued suspicions towards DY is it safe to say you do not think there is a SK in this game?

Also...my vote on you was the first real vote you received (post 19). There were two other votes [Lowell/redFF and Palisade] on you at the time (both RVs iirc) and my vote was followed by Alice, Jason and camn. So no...there was not a decent wagon on you before "that".

Why would you vote Jon???

OK...less than two days from the deadline. Red to my complete and utter amazement is not being considered for lynching in order to eliminate the SK. (WTF???) DV has a lone vote on him which I would move to if it developed. Nobody Special has gone completely off his rocker on this Day. Combined with his lack of posting on the previous days I'll chalk it up to balking under the pressure combined with self preservation mode (ala DV). Seriously? An Alice vote?

Lot of single votes need to pick a wagon.

I'd go back to red in a heartbeat. DV would be nice. NS has legs though and is just as nice.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Nobody special

If red doesn't wind up being the lynch today...how do we want to proceed to eliminate as many people from SK consideration as possible? And who is still up for consideration?

redFF

(ding ding ding ding!!!)....MOI despite his Doc claim....Tammy? Anyone else or are they that last three potentials? I assume Alice and or DY will be dead tonight but on the off chance they both survive (along with redFF), we should be able to ~clear 2 more people from SK consideration.

[DarthYoshi]

One day from deadline, and literally the ONLY two wagons are...me...and the player I just said I didn't want lynched today. Blerg.

Unvote. Vote: NS. This is L-1.

I would say nobody should hammer without giving NS the chance to post final thoughts, but he clearly can't tell up from down in this game anymore, so whatever.

Unrelated, Fitz blatantly admitting he wants to get rid of the SK sooner rather than later is scummy. Of course scum want the SK out of the way, the potential for crosskills lowers the chances of any individual scum faction winning the game. Obviously, he's not today's lynch, but still,

FOS Fitz.

Yes, your assumption that I would not move my vote to avoid a No-lynch is both invalid and pointless in the course of directing why I am 'scum'. You made a incorrect assumption that benefited your stance and ran with it.

Dude, listen to what you're saying--I should assume that you would do something pro-town when I think you're scum and when you didn't actually say you would do said thing? You're asking me to be psychic here.

As to flailing scum - a typical rhetoric attack. I can point to you any number of flash wagons on Town that appeared right at deadline driven by scum. Your attempt to paint that observation as scummy is noted.

But for the record - if I was scum 'worried and flailing' I would have hopped on the next closest viable wagon. I'm not because I'm voting my top suspect and actually scum-hunting.

Or you could have done it to divide the town so close to deadline, which, based on the most recent VC, seemed to work like a charm.

[Tammy]

I'm feeling less good about voting for NS after his recent posts. I'm beginning to think that what I thought was a tone that was too afraid to go against public opinion because he was scum, might be personality based and therefore not alignment indicative.

There's something about Jon's placating tone that sets me a little on edge too.

unvote: NS
vote: Jon

[Tammy]

^Yes I know this is

close

to deadline. I'll be around and will change it if necessary.

[DarthYoshi]

I'm feeling less good about voting for NS after his recent posts. I'm beginning to think that what I thought was a tone that was too afraid to go against public opinion because he was scum, might be personality based and therefore not alignment indicative.

There's something about Jon's placating tone that sets me a little on edge too.

unvote: NS
vote: Jon

Fine.

Unvote. Vote: Jon.

3 votes down, 3 to go.

[Nobody Special]

Okay, then.

unvote

Vote: Jon

[Alicewondering]

I don't think DV is the SK. I think it's very likely that he's scum.

Alice: How do you explain that you've come this far and not found any scum? Could it be that you're scum?

I just don't know what to do any more.

How is it that you've neither found scum nor been NKed? And that's false. I have been a proponent of a Jason lynch since D1, and particularly D2. I have also proposed IAI scum.

@Fitz: Muffin claimed last, so red wouldn't have known.

DV

, would you be down with lynching HF today?

Here's why DV is scum:
A big part of it is interaction with Jason. I speculated on D1 that there was coaching going on between the two, but under pressure, I dropped that line of reasoning. I would like to bring it back up in light of the 1v1 Jason set up yesterday. Read DV and Jason's interactions. Like Ghostlin pointed out, DV's posts are not genuinely infuriated townie.

MOI previously pointed out the issues with this post:

The question is: Why did scum kill muffin, considering likelihood (from their PoV) of him being

watched

/protected?

I'll most likely vote jason as soon as he posts.

The bold implies a town watcher. Yet, DV says that he will vote Jason as soon as he posts. At that point, Jason was pretty much conf scum after nights of anti-town action and scummy posting. Of course he would support a Jason lynch. But if DV's intentions were genuine here, he would have had no reason to think that there was an issue about muffin being watched.

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

Vote: Jason

Why are people voting with him?

Look at the first line of this. This is not the townie outrage that scooby expressed when Jason lied about his night results. This is a scum partner halfheartedly pretending to be angry. He provides no evidence and does not call for people to vote Jason. He votes Jason only after this gambit, which makes me think that the whole thing was planned. He was planning to vote Jason as soon as he posted with a 1v1 set up. Stinks of scum plan right there.

Because tracking me is much worse than tracking someone else.

Why the recent negativity towards me?

I don't understand why a supposedly townie DV would be upset at being confirmed townie by a resultless track. The reason is that he's scum.

Setting up a 1v1 was obviously in his best interests since he was inevitably going to be lynched today.

Huh. It was in his interests too because it was probably going to clear DV.

Secondly, after there being such a fuss over me not wanting to be tracked, there is no way I would have carried out the team's kill. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be tracked as a VT. It would have been totally useless.The only way me asking not to be tracked would make sense with me as scum, would have been as an attempt to look town and maybe even draw the tracker to me with me being ninja, or another mafia carrying out the kill. NOT with me carrying out the kill.

Real townies do not speculate about what would happen if they were on the scumteam. There is too much justification here about the track to be genuinely townie.

NS: Because I'm town and if Jason is lynched, I'll be close to confirmed.

This is why I think it was a scum gambit. He's setting himself as an innocent, knowing that Jason will flip scum.

but I knew that there was no way I was going to be visiting anybody

Because the other scumteam member submitted the kill.

I'm sure there's some interaction somewhere that makes it impossible for me to be scum with Jason.

Why would he say this? Because the whole thing is a setup. That is not true. I had speculated about them being buddies early on, and those suspicions were not necessarily ungrounded. His precluding the possibility of Jason and him being partners BEFORE A JASON LYNCH HAD HAPPENED worries me.

If I were to say something along the lines of "Alice is not necessarily conftown" -- how would that be received?

not all that badly

but I still think she's town.

What's the point of saying this except to sow doubt in the town?

Look at this read change within 5 posts:

Jason's flip doesn't exonerate DV to me.

And I still think you're scum too.

Oh, that actually changes things.
[cut]
I may have to change my read.

Why would he need to change his read on DY if he already thought he was scum? The only reason he would need to CHANGE a read was that he didn't even have a read on DY to start out with because he knew DY was town. Huh.

I also dont' like how he repeated asked for confirmation

So you do think it's plausible that DY killed/roleblocked me?

on whether I thought DY was scum.

And I know it seems unlikely, but I just feel that DY is scum!

Talk about fake.

There are also meta reasons for my suspicion of DV. I have seen him ask a lot of good questions, make good observations and follow up on his cases. The "idk i just have a feeling about DY, man" doesn't strike me as town DV behavior. It seems like lazy scum behavior.

[Alicewondering]

I rarely put together giant cases anymore, so if I do, you know it's srs bsns. Please, for the love of the town, lynch this guy. We need to catch scum, and I'm fairly sure he's it.

[jon_h61]

DV is who I thought was most likely scum all along, but noone went for my case..

VOTE: DeasVail

[Magua]

@Jon:

Given that DeasVail has been pushing JasonT1981 pretty much all game, why do you think this?

@Everyone else:

I'm not looking for your answers, just Jon's.

If DV is mafia, do you think DarthYoshi (who DV has also been pushing) is town?

Do you expect DV to vote you?

[jon_h61]

@ Magua From what I've seen him do in this thread, his freaking out and voting anyone that looks crosseyed at him, like P. 55 in reference to MoI's comments toward him.
His AtEs like P. 59. His very weak cases he has made on his defense, ie "MoI:, "I'm town, so... nah., I'm sure there's some interaction somewhere that makes it impossible for me to be scum with Jason.", his claiming DY should know his meta and that his meta proves he is Town.
His asking if NS is "appearing too useful To be Town" -NS hadn't done anything at that point I would consider useful to Town. NS had asked "Alice is not necessarily conftown" -- how would that be received?" and that was about it. I "feel" a lot of his posts are meant to baffle more than dazzle.

Yes I am starting to believe his claimed PR.

From the very short history I've had with DV and from what I've seen him do, I would be very shocked if he didn't with a little OMG I can't believe you did that thrown in.

[Tammy]

Jason's read list on page 17 of cache...(yes, I'm a slow reader and busy)

His only known partner to date is I am Innocent, which he basically places in his null reads by not naming him. His scum reads include Camn - town, and Scooby (town?). Only unknowns from scum list are DV, MoI and Alice. Thor calls Jason town a lot from what I'm noticing. This is making me doubt Jon/Thor's scum read, especially considering that Jason has Thor in his town read. However, I haven't gotten a great feeling from Thor over all. It just seems a little odd to me that partners might spend their time calling each other town. That is unless they decided to split their reads - put one in null, one in town and one in scum - but I don't know if many partners actually plan something like that out.

Scum

Camn - wishy washy play, no real substance to posts
DV - already known
Scooby - Do something... seems lurker scum
MOI - agree with the case made on him
Alice - lowest of scum reads

Town
Fitz
Yoshi
Dry-fit
Palis
Thor
Muffin

everyone else - still null/not getting a proper read.

[Tammy]

IAI's reads on that same page - calls NS town. My current scumreads in order are Alice, Jason, Palisades. DryFit and DV have also pinged my scumdar as well.

[Tammy]

^Those are IaI's reads...not me saying who my scumreads are btw...in case that looks weird.