NY 151: Playground Mafia (Game Over-Mafia Win!)

mastin2 · Post Post #275 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:15 pm

More coherent, now. To explain my stance more clearly:

Firestarter tripped dozens of scumtells in that post, and is now on my scumlist above drmy. Specifics later (need to type them up).

Khan's not scum due to confirmation bias spawned from our history. He's scum for the reasons previously listed--
He's playing as expected from a scum player; any similar player (e.g. Ironhead*, a logical player) would have an identical read. His posts, his interactions, and others' (in particular, my other scumspects) interactions with him. No different than reasons for finding any player to be scum.

Explanation will come, though his request will be honored, since the lists will be nearly identical,

because

my read is not based off of biases, but on his and others' play. Listing ~6 players as scum, then removing one (i.e., Khan) won't change much, since said removed player played little part in the formation of other reads.

*Probably not the best player example, but the first which came to mind.

NihilisticNinja · Post Post #276 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:18 pm

Actually, nah.

UNVOTE: rack
VOTE: Firestarter

Anybody care to join me?

Psyche · Post Post #277 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:21 pm

I just tried to analyze a mastin post and two new pages pop up. I started to gag when mastin started gushing about his amazing ability to read underneath the words.

Psyche · Post Post #278 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:30 pm

...Sigh. This is very bad. A whole new challenge for me. How do I rewire my brain to tolerate — enjoy! — this torture?

I'll have to optimize the way I read posts. Learn to skim efficiently and ignore intelligently.

NN, your response to me is nice and all, but I don't find it interesting or important enough to respond to. But I'd like to tell you that I find none of it weighty or well-reasoned enough to make me afraid of getting mislynched any time soon.

Kublai Khan · Post Post #279 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:32 pm

In post 217, Pine wrote:Having people screaming for a person's death when they haven't actually entered the game yet is a big pet peeve of mine. It pisses me off. If they've engaged with the game, and are withholding significant content (like Rack) then I condone it. All Scooby had done to that point was confirm, and people were ready to lynch him. What the fuck?

Not people - one person. You over-reacted to that.
And @Firestarter - WTF? For someone who dissected the game as such as your game notes show, how are you so obvlious to the situation you've called me on? Here's the play-by-play:

Spoiler: play-by-play

The biggest thing of note is that The Mini-Librarian is the only person to call for scooby's death. And he did so 5 pages into the game. I backed up The Mini-Librarian because prodding someone for content is a perfectly valid scum-hunting technique. Pine, scooby, and now you have all accused "people" of trying to lynch scooby for merely making a confirmation post. There's a lot of misrepping going on.

I could get behind a Firestarter wagon. His analysis is a mess. Though drmyshotgun, rack, and Nero Cain need some serious ropage as well.

Hmm..

Vote: Firestarter

-- I'll start here.

mastin2 · Post Post #280 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:36 pm

I kinda have the impression that if scum had daytalk, they've just posted a message similar to what Hiraki posted in 144, with regards to mcqueen.

That is, "Okay, Firestarter has to die. NOW."

Psyche · Post Post #281 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:55 pm

In post 234, mastin2 wrote:PART TWO: STRONGER TOWNREADS--

Town
:

(Roughly ordered strongest to weakest.)

redFF
:
I have a super-secret tell that red tripped in one of his posts, which makes him (to me) almost confirmed town, as I canNOT see it being faked by him as scum, and it seemed quite legitimate. (Not the best start for me being logical, given as how I can't explain by showing you which post or why it's a towntell, as it wouldn't be a supersecretz towntell if I told you everything about it. )

His posts also are quite reminiscent of what I remember of his townplay, so that also helps things out.

scooby
:
I had a townread on all three of our last-to-confirm players before scooby had even posted, because of the interactions which had transpired already in-thread. This alone, however, wasn't what earned scooby his spot (as it amounted to little more than gut, even to me), however--what makes scooby a relatively strong townread is people's willingness to attack scooby, a sure sign that he actually is town.

In particular, Khan's passive attack against scooby here:
Pine... You know better. There is scum motivation in avoiding posting content until you see where other players stand on issues. scooby is deserving of the pressure that The Mini-Librarian is trying to exert.
...Was quite discouraging to any thought of scooby-scum.

shotty
:
Much like scooby, this townread is less based off of what shotty has done, and more based off of what others have done. (It's the way that was recommended to read VIs in one of the threads I browsed in MD. So this was actually a piece of advice that I HAVE incorporated into my play.) The willingness of at least a quarter of our playerlist to lynch shotty (I haven't done an exact count on the number willing to lynch him, but I do believe it's a significant amount) strongly suggests that shotty is in fact not a scumlynch. (That, or he ticked off his buddies THAT badly in the scum QT already. )

Lady Lambdadelta
:
Admittedly, I don't really know LLD's playstyle that well, despite having been in at least two games with her. (Probably more.) So I can't really say for certain that this is her townplay. But her posts definitely sent off a townvibe overall to me. That, combined with her interactions with Ninja and drmy (we'll get to those two later) among others make her a relatively strong townread.

Nero Cain
:
I'll admit, Nero's posts give off a bad vibe, but a few things do place him firmly in the town category. For starters, there's his willingness to antagonize a player. (In this case, HezLucky.) As scum, that just brings unnecessary attention to oneself, and potentially creates problems for them in the long-run.

Furthermore, there's also the fact that multiple people seem to be expressing early suspicion in him. Yes, it's a tell which normally applies to VIs, but I think in his case, it applies as well. He's basically painting a target over his head, which reads "EASY PICKINGS". His play comes across as being weak enough to be attacked, but due to his veteran player status, has none of the fear scum'd have from attacking a VI like shotty.

To give specific examples of scum taking advantage of this, you need look no further than Khan:
Khan Man wrote:@Nero Cain -
You made the argumentum ad populum that drmyshottyizsik is a "well-known VI", then tried to shift the burden of prooving your own assertion onto NihilisticNinja who seems legitimately confused by your behavior. And so am I. If anyone is drawing out the argument and making it "tedious and a distraction" it's you. You are acting scummy and shifty for no concievable reason. I looked up and found a game with both you and drmyshottyizsik in 2 minutes, why can't you?
(Which is a reverse of his original initial townread), and NihilisticNinja, whose ISO is half-devoted to Nero.

All of this combined makes Nero among my stronger townreads, despite my initial doubt of him.

Meh.

redFF read is useless. But I'm glad you made a paragraph of it, thanks.

"being attacked a lot earlygame = town" is wifommy. It might be passable for scooby, but for someone who one would expect to be attacked throughout the game (especially at the beginning), your reasoning is shoddy as crap. You're also overestimating scumteam cohesion. Besides, a well known tell is bound to affect scum behavior.

As for Nero, it's same mehfulness. And your point about Nero's willingness to antagonize assumes that Nero recognizes what you assume to be optimal play.

I stopped reading your Khan attack when you started gushing about your amazing ability to read underneath posts. -_-

Seriously, for all their presentation, the reasonjng behind this is as crappy as heck. I suppose I was a bit hyped up, but sheesh. None of this stuff is persuasive. If you turn out to be scum, I won't be surprised.

In post 273, Nero Cain wrote:though I have to agree that fire is very probable scum. Psyche is his #1 but he joins the rack wagon?

This. Wtf? Not to mention he totally misrepped my posts. And for future reference, association tells, my ass.

mastin2 · Post Post #282 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:02 pm

Psyche wrote:I suppose I was a bit hyped up, but sheesh. None of this stuff is persuasive.

I

did

say logic's not my strongsuit...

Then again, I don't think you will ever need convincing from me. (Hint, hint.

) So no harm done.

drmyshotgun · Post Post #283 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:20 pm

I thought Firestarter's post was good. Except that he thinks me as leaning-scum null.

Psyche · Post Post #284 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:24 pm

In post 282, mastin2 wrote:
Psyche wrote:I suppose I was a bit hyped up, but sheesh. None of this stuff is persuasive.
I
did
say logic's not my strongsuit...

Then again, I don't think you will ever need convincing from me. (Hint, hint. ) So no harm done.

Ugh.

Psyche · Post Post #285 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:31 pm

I'm

unvoting rack

. No longer interested in my instinctive reactions to his posts. Once I finish reread three, I'll have a...more aloof (less annoyed, more effortful) bit of content.

Positive affect is the optimal approach to most situations! Goosfraba!

Psyche · Post Post #286 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:30 pm

Fire's arrival brings new hope that sense may be made of this all, and I'm annoyed by his voting rack-not-me, not to mention calling us both scum despite my orientation against the guy. Clearly his attack on me is more substantial (annoyingly). If he turns out to be scum, though, this preference is bound to make things annoying for me in latter Days. Sigh.

But who lists top three scum and votes for #2? When I'm scum, I'm careful When identifying my lynch targets. For that, I'm thinking fire's silly is really just a settle for a sizable wagon. Oh, and I suppose I'd better address his attack.

Psyche - Scum-read
Instant rack-vote upon arrival.
Extremely strong dislike for shotty - But no vote?
If #215 is a town post, I fail to see why no vote was placed on shotty.
Refusing to acknowledge/answer NN's questions/post.

There's a whole literature on why rack is scummy. As an initial pre-analytical vote in the first couple of posts of D1, I think mine was a pretty good one.
I was pretty clear about why I had no motivation to vote shotty. If you're going to parrot a poor attack, at least try to match its quality.
I Worked very hard to acknowledge NN's questions, but they are too often built on false assumptions that make answering them so terribly trivial. NN's new set of questions works more to justify her first asking those questions than to actually investigate me. Either that, or her capacity for inference is shot. (Sorry if this comes off as an insult)

And that's done.

I don't like mastin. In some occasions his reasoning seems superficial — even opportunistic. In others, instrumental — used to justify conclusions than to come up with them. All of it seems disingenuous. But that last feeling doesn't feel justified enough. I might just not like the guy. I agree with Khan that time will tell.

Nero's fine. His crusade on shotty evoked an innaccurate response from the thread and his tension with NN is completely understandable. Nothing seems inauthentic.

max's posts are meh. I mean, extraordinarily meh. I like the idea of lynching this guy.

MiniLibrarian's post suck less dramatically but content is lacking.

Red's either town or a good internet poker player.

No one else really matters to me enough for me to remember their name and iso them at 2AM. Though some of them are real cards..

Goodnight, guys! I'm sure my visceral response to all this can be controlled.

Psyche · Post Post #287 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:31 pm

VOTE: Maxous to draw sufficient amount to the guy.

NihilisticNinja · Post Post #288 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:53 pm

In post 286, Psyche wrote:
There's a whole literature on why rack is scummy. As an initial pre-analytical vote in the first couple of posts of D1, I think mine was a pretty good one.

Sorry, but no. Your vote was actually pretty bad. "Heya guys. I don't like some of you. Vote: rack."

In post 286, Psyche wrote:I Worked very hard to acknowledge NN's questions, but they are too often built on false assumptions that make answering them so terribly trivial. NN's new set of questions works more to justify her first asking those questions than to actually investigate me. Either that, or her capacity for inference is shot. (Sorry if this comes off as an insult)

I'm sorry... but you worked hard? That was essentially just an ad-hom laced and accusation-juiced paragraph. And if it felt like the response was a justification- it partially was, because you were attacking me for even daring to ask the questions. But I actually did get a read on you from that response. Not a strong one, but it was definitely worth noting. So, now you're apparently the one who can't infer things from other people's posts.

And those reads are pretty weak, really. You only justify a couple of them, the people you picked seem extremely arbitrary (you remember Librarian, but not KK? You remember Red, but not Lambda?), and your vote doesn't make that much sense. Your Firestarter read is just a bunch of words that don't really say much of anything, but if you are convinced that rack is scum, why not go back to him again rather than a pressure vote on Maxous?

~~Fixed quote tags

NihilisticNinja · Post Post #289 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 7:57 pm

(EBWODP): Bah.

@Mod, can you patch up those quotetags?

Also, for the record, no offense taken. What's in-game is in-game.

Benmage · Post Post #290 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:09 pm

Firestarter couldn't be more town if he was an innocent child.

Psyche · Post Post #291 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:33 pm

In post 288, NihilisticNinja wrote:
In post 286, Psyche wrote:
There's a whole literature on why rack is scummy. As an initial pre-analytical vote in the first couple of posts of D1, I think mine was a pretty good one.

Sorry, but no. Your vote was actually pretty bad. "Heya guys. I don't like some of you. Vote: rack."

In post 286, Psyche wrote:I Worked very hard to acknowledge NN's questions, but they are too often built on false assumptions that make answering them so terribly trivial. NN's new set of questions works more to justify her first asking those questions than to actually investigate me. Either that, or her capacity for inference is shot. (Sorry if this comes off as an insult)

I'm sorry... but you worked hard? That was essentially just an ad-hom laced and accusation-juiced paragraph. And if it felt like the response was a justification- it partially was, because you were attacking me for even daring to ask the questions. But I actually did get a read on you from that response. Not a strong one, but it was definitely worth noting. So, now you're apparently the one who can't infer things from other people's posts.

And those reads are pretty weak, really. You only justify a couple of them, the people you picked seem extremely arbitrary (you remember Librarian, but not KK? You remember Red, but not Lambda?), and your vote doesn't make that much sense. Your Firestarter read is just a bunch of words that don't really say much of anything, but if you are convinced that rack is scum, why not go back to him again rather than a pressure vote on Maxous?

Sure. Bad vote. Whatever.

You do know I'm not the only one to make the 'bad' choice to vote rack? I see no reason to restate an already suitable case. It's not like anything new regarding rack was happening. The most I could say was "I agree", but that would be redundant. And this thread has enough of that.

I remember KK and Lambda. They simply don't matter to me atm. Who cares? Firestarter read says enough. Sorry it's not a soliloquy. What I see doesn't, upon deeper thought, suggest scum. I've no need to give more than a cursory explanation of my reads until game events provide me reason to. They're neither interesting nor meaningful enough to me to get such detail.

My max vote makes perfect sense. Look at his damned posts. They are nothing pretending to be something. And he's been ignored despite this. Why not pick him out?

Rack doesn't need my vote. The account has recieved the alarm and will be responding to it shortly. My vote was no longer meaningful where it sat.

As for your questions, yes, hard wrk. I indicated my awareness of your post and expressed my opinion of them. I navigated through the issues in them and ltimately responded to them. I attacked you, rightfully, for poorly asking poor questions, not for 'daring'.

HezLucky · Post Post #292 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:39 pm

In post 290, Benmage wrote:Firestarter couldn't be more town if he was an innocent child.

Do you usually do nothing but post one-liners?

This merits its own post. I don't want you dodging this question.

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #293 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:33 pm

My God, I chose a fucking terrible time to go on V/LA. And add to that the fact I'm playing a golf tournament. Sucks how 4 pages pop up in like a matter of hours, and they're filled with Great Wall-esque posts. Okay, enough bitching. Now I'm going start with a RV.

VOTE: CCV

Lol jks.

VOTE: drmyshotgun

I don't know why people found rack or firestarter scummy. However I haven't had the time to read firestarter's post in question thoroughly, so I'm going to do that. Explanataion on the rack read would be nice though.

drmyshotgun · Post Post #294 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:41 pm

^Da fawk?

drmyshotgun · Post Post #295 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:42 pm

You don't mention me at all in your post except once after the word: "VOTE:"

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #296 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:55 pm

^ your point?

DeasVail · Post Post #297 (ISO) » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:15 pm

I have time to read now

Also, I'm sorgster.

I've been deliberating over this, but I've decided to be open with my townreads considering the size of this game. If anyone thinks this is a bad idea, persuade me.

2:

Nihilistic perhaps too eager to get involved in conversation.
Nero and Maxous are just posting for the sake of posting.
Hez is probably town for 38

drmyshotgun:

Why did you mention the questions if you didn't think it was a good idea?

3:

Nihilistic:

Why did you take an accusation of buddying as an accusation of you being scum with LLD? Also, how were you attacking shotty?

I think Nero is scum. I'll explain after if I still feel it.

4:

Nihilistic:

Why didn't you just look at his games? [Note: I've seen Rack's question, so don't worry.]

Rack is probable town. Nihilistic is looking more town.

Kublai:

Why did you feel the need to say you were taking Candy off your scumlist? Why was he there in the first place?

5:

I really don't see how Rack is scummy. The first post with questions is exactly what I expect from a town hydra. I'll be interested to see who jumps on them.

6:

Nihilistic:

How is Rack not an easy mislynch?

Benmage:

Point of 141?

7:

Benmage might be scum. I'll get back to you on that.

9:

Pretty strong townread on Psyche. May explain later.
I don't like Pine either. I promise I'll explain this stuff afterwards.

10:

Oh ok. That's interesting.

Rack:

Why do you need your partner to get you out of the shitstorm?
Skipping MAstin's posts for until I make my own reads post.

Ohhhh. Shotgun is so, so, sooooo town. This is not sarcasm. (And that's not sarcasm either)

11:

Eh, I'll read firestarter's post properly later.

Ok, just pretend that I've finished reading. I'll get to reads, important thoughts and stuff soonish.

DeasVail · Post Post #298 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:04 am

Town

Mini-Librarian

NihilisticNinja

I can understand how people could have a scumread on him, but for me his play on the whole is so much like town and so little like scum. Note: I don't really like providing reasoning for my townreads, but if requested, I'm happy to oblige.

HezLucky

I can only really see his posts as coming from town.

drmyshotgun

Because of vote on rack and subsequent posting.

Mastin2

Weak Town

Psyche

Not as town as I originally thought, but I think he can be put here. His posting generally feels quite natural. His vote on rack is a towntell because it is bound to attract attention because of the wagon and lack of reasoning provided with the vote. The thoughts on Shotty are more likely from town. Scum would only likely post this if planning to lynch him, and this feels more like town having a thought for the future and wanting to note it down. His unvote of Rack makes more sense from town than scum.

Kublai Khan

Eh. Mastin's reasoning doesn't do much for me. The "was Jesus Jewish?" and *talking about the game starting* points are ok, but the others are really pushing it and overall KK feels like town.

Scooby

Especially if Pine is scum, but waiting for more posting.

Rack

I don't have any problem with the questions. And their posts aren't really different from what I'd expect from a town hydra. The whole *waiting for head B to fix things* thing requires explanation though.

Drmyshottyizsik

Candy Corn Vampire

LLD

Vijay

Null

JasonT1981

Macros

Benmage

Torn on him. Hopefully I'll make a decision later.

RedFF

I can't read him. Someone help me.

Junpei

Praetyre

Weak Scum

Firestarter

This read really depends on future posting. I don't really get the significance of IIoA accusations. My main problem is the rack read and vote, as he does not acknowledge agreement with everyone else and presents his reasoning as his own.

Pine

First off, I don't really find much that's town about him. I don't like his focus on the distancing thing, but I'm not sure that this is alignment-related. I do think that his reaction to pressure on Scooby is scummy, in particular 217, which is more of a justification than I would expect. I think saying that people were ready to lynch scooby and going on about how he hates people who haven't posted getting attacked are exaggerations used to make himself look more reasonable. 222 is off. The answer seems a lot like scum trying to have an appropriate response to the question, while I don't see how town wouldn't say something along the lines of "yeah sure, why not?" Additionally, the vote on Gunny is bad.

Nero Cain

Very weak read. I no longer agree with some of the things I found scummy about him before, but the play around shotgun is bad and I don't find him that town.

Maxous

Can't really explain though. MAybe another time.

Questions:

Psyche: What's your opinion on whether rack should or should not be lynched today?
Mastin2: Why does your big post about Kublai convey the sense that you don't believe you'll be listened to?
drmyshotgun: Why did you vote for rack?

Firestarter · Post Post #299 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:26 am

NN, please explain to me why my vote contradicts my base reads?

And note (I should have put this in my original post), my initial scum list is in no particular order.
If one was to check the player list on the very first page, my reads are in that order.

When I compiled my scum list, I pulled the names from my read list.

Regarding Psyche, his vote on rack looks like a bus.