Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Alicewondering]

Due to getting home really late, I'm going to be V/LA through Saturday. I'll be back SUnday.

[4nxi3ty]

fishy, you've played with DDD before right? have you seen him tunnel as either alighnment?

Well except for Debonair. He's a special case, but he can go in the scumpile too.

what makes DDD a special case?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target.

Yep, this is pretty clearly a five scum game and you've nailed our team; kudos.

[kortul]

Does anyone actually have any basis for thinking my read changes were convenient/scummy/whatever? (Except for me attempting to buddy voided into changing his read of me, because that's just stupid. I even joked about it... [refrains from swearing]) Answers from DCL, hiplop and kortul are needed.

I already answered that in 719.

So there are likely three townies that are likely going to keep wanting to lynch me throughout. DCL maybe no and kortul could be night-killed

Hmm, that's an interesting alignment i have now - "could be night-killed". What does it mean?

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

I answered that as well:

And yes, i can see the scenario where you are town suffering from a mess from predecessors, and your read changes have logical town explanations, but the reasons you said are different so far, and only

your farther actions can tilt the scales of my read in other direction

(or someone will become more scummy).

While you are defending you are helping only yourself, both scum and town do this, how do you expect us to get a better read on you? Nacho explained it perfectly yesterday:

Stop worrying about getting lynched. If you do, it's not the end of the world.

Help us find scum

and fuck everything else.

[Voidedmafia]

Macro: I don't know. Are you going to stop looking like the scum you seem to be, or will you start acting towny? I'm not just going to stop because you try to ask nicely if there's no reason for me to believe that you'll be better.

[DCLXVI]

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

[Macrophage]

what makes DDD a special case?

He's not trying to find anything scummy about me at all.

Yep, this is pretty clearly a five scum game and you've nailed our team; kudos.

And you've pretty clearly ignored what I was saying; kudos.

@Kortul: It means that I could see scum night-killing you if you are indeed town. What did you think it meant?

Macro: I don't know. Are you going to stop looking like the scum you seem to be, or will you start acting towny? I'm not just going to stop because you try to ask nicely if there's no reason for me to believe that you'll be better.

But I'm town, and how I've acted is as a result of that. And I really think that there are quite a few things I've done/said here that I wouldn't as scum. Also, serious question, how can I be "better" and how is this replacable with "less scummy"?

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town?

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

[DCLXVI]

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

Ok, so I haven't pushed you but the way I did was scummy? That doesn't make sense at all.

So I did something scummy while not pushing you and I appear townish?

[Voidedmafia]

Well, if you take "better" to mean "be a better mafia player", then obviously those words aren't interchangable, but that's not how I'm using it.

Also, you may know you're town,

I

don't. Not till you're dead and flipped, anyways. And I already said the way you claimed did you no favors, so.

[Macrophage]

I wouldn't say that I have been pushing you much.

You haven't, but the way you've done it is scummy.

Ok, so I haven't pushed you but the way I did was scummy? That doesn't make sense at all.

So I did something scummy while not pushing you and I appear townish?

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

@Voided: If I was lynched right now, how likely do you think it would be for me to flip scum?

[hiplop]

Does anyone actually have any basis for thinking my read changes were convenient/scummy/whatever? (Except for me attempting to buddy voided into changing his read of me, because that's just stupid. I even joked about it... [refrains from swearing]) Answers from DCL, hiplop and kortul are needed.

Really, the pushing on me from DCL, Debonair, Kortul, hiplop and voided are what I'd expect from scum- using my predecessors' stuff aginst me while also pulling out stuff about me that's magically scummy to keep me as a target. Well except for Debonair. He's a special case, but he can go in the scumpile too. The problem though, is I really think only two of them can be scum. Three scum are not going to all illogically push one player (well I guess it's possible, but I don't think so). So there are likely three townies that are likely going to keep wanting to lynch me throughout. DCL maybe no and kortul could be night-killed, but they'd be the only ones that would not be 90% likely to tunnel on me for at least the next few days and they could even be the scum here.

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town? If you're town, please answer this question seriously. I understand what it's like to think someone scum and want to get rid of them for a clearer read of the game regardless of their alignment.

I honestly am thinking suggesting that I just be lynched, because no one is taking my reads seriously (defying the purpose of creating this alt in the first place). It's all like "Who cares if Voided is actually scummy or not? Macrophage saying he is is just not town!" And I've recently come to realise that no matter how obvtown I think I am, if it looks like I'll be lynched at some point in the game, then I will be unless I'm a PR. I'm getting really frustrated by this game and don't want to delay my lynch if it's inevitable.

Sorry about my rant, but please do answer any questions I've asked directed at you.

Very small chance of the town part,y ou are moving up though. But like you said you're kinda distracting me too (i really thinky ou're scum though)

[DCLXVI]

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

sorry, thought I had already answered that.

Your flip on voided is scummy because you start by calling him scum, you then call him town when you are at l-1, then you call him scum again when you are safer. Seems like the read only changed to town because you wanted to save yourself from getting lynched.

If you don't mind could you now answer my question?

[Rhinox]

Also, can you answer the question about that reason for me changing my reads?

sorry, thought I had already answered that.

Your flip on voided is scummy because you start by calling him scum, you then call him town when you are at l-1, then you call him scum again when you are safer. Seems like the read only changed to town because you wanted to save yourself from getting lynched.

If you don't mind could you now answer my question?

What does Macro calling voided town when Macro is at L-1 do to save Macro from getting lynched?

[DCLXVI]

Voided was on the wagon, macro appeared to be sucking up to him to get voided to get off the wagon.

[DCLXVI]

One read change is understandable, but now macro is going back to calling voided scum. The circumstances around the read change are definitely scummy.

[Sleepless Assassin]

SA, so your scumread on DCL is due to his predecessor? What do you think of DCL's play?

Yes, I got my scum read on the slot when Bike was still in the game. As far as DCL, his play looks pretty solid. Obviously, the two share a Role PM though.

Void, can you tell me why Macro's claim makes sense for scum? Why would scum claim a power role and then instead of just claiming an actual power role or sticking to "town doesn't need to know as much as scum does", he just goes "aw shucks, I'm just a plain old townie"? The only intent I can personally think of is fear of outing an actual power role. Claiming vanilla is basically resigning to a lynch. Scum have more reason to keep fighting at that point than town.

Voided was on the wagon, macro appeared to be sucking up to him to get voided to get off the wagon.

^Arguments like this are part of the reason the macro case looks like such garbage right now. If someone was going to "suck up" to someone voting them, why would they choose voided? Why not one of the "voice of reason" kind of players? Someone with persuasive abilities who everyone thinks is town. Or maybe multiple players. All I know is if I saw (and I'm taking the list from the five he mentioned, not the wagons, because it's the players that stand out to him and means more in this context) Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL voting me and was going to try buddying to shake them off the wagon, my first thought wouldn't be "Oh shit, gotta get voided off that wagon".

[Sleepless Assassin]

Like. Ok, I saw Malee as scummy and all and haven't seen rainbows flying out the ass of anyone in the slot as far as towniness but come on guys.

Seriously, someone give a bullet point case and then read it. Look at how ridiculous it looks. If you don't think it does, post it. Hell, post it anyway. I could use the entertainment.

Just from the post I just made, I see that we see him claiming vanilla instead of fighting his lynch with a strong fake claim as a scum tell, which shows admitted defeat and then the same guy is apparently desperate to shake void, yes void of all people, off his wagon to save himself.

Are you guys reading the shit you spew?

Let's string up the real scum 4n and call it a day.

Seriously...

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Void, can you tell me why Macro's claim makes sense for scum? Why would scum claim a power role and then instead of just claiming an actual power role or sticking to "town doesn't need to know as much as scum does", he just goes "aw shucks, I'm just a plain old townie"? The only intent I can personally think of is fear of outing an actual power role. Claiming vanilla is basically resigning to a lynch. Scum have more reason to keep fighting at that point than town.

But that just boils back to the age old question, why would scum ever claim vanilla at L-1? And yet, they do. Because clearly if they always claim a PR then suddenly vanilla claims are the safe claims to make and it constantly bounces back and forth with each individual player trying to guess where the site meta currently is.

[4nxi3ty]

Let's string up the real scum 4n and call it a day.

[Voidedmafia]

SA: No, I'm not stringing up 4n.

Also, a possible reason he went for me was that I was arguably pushing it the most (Started the wagon, etc.) and perhaps he thought that if he could get me off it first, everyone else following would get off as well. I don't know. Sure looked like some form of sucking up to me, though. And I don't think I've seen any reasonable explanation for why the read changes AREN'T scummy yet.

re the claim: DDP makes a good point. Also, claiming VT isn't always resigning to a lynch. It can just as much mean that you're not going to try and find an easy out of the lynch, though I doubt that that's what's going on here.

[Macrophage]

@DCL: You were pushing me, but not much. The way you did was scummy. I found the way you responded to my "will you see me as town?" question townish, and voided's scummy. I think this was pretty clear. I really don't understand how you can think I was trying to suck up to Voided though. I've looked back at my posts, and I just don't understand it. Also, why aren't you voting me?

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Also, how do you guys that are voting/suspecting me feel about voting Debonair? (Debonair can answer too if he wants)

[DCLXVI]

Also, why aren't you voting me?

I haven't decided whether or not you are scum yet.

I wouldn't say that I am pushing you so much as trying to figure out what your alignment is, I fucked up trying to read LS and I'm trying to be more careful.

[Voidedmafia]

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Fail defense is fail. Is all you're going to say to any accusations is, "Cuz I'm town!"? I can think of a couple different reasons why that argument doesn't work here.

[DCLXVI]

-vote macro

Now you can say I am pushing you.

reasons:

-Vote changes on voided.

-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strong

-I don't like how macro is calling me town, the way macro is acting seems like he is trying to placate people into not voting him. I played like shit day 1, calling me town for a response that was not townish or scummish was terrible imho. Yes other people have said I may be town, but they had much better logic behind in then calling a simple response townish.

-defending himself by saying he is town. That's like saying your not guilty because your not a criminal...

[Macrophage]

Hmm, will you unvote me if I call you scum?