Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[DCLXVI]

no

[DCLXVI]

It wasn't the fact you are calling me town, it was the dubious reasoning for it.

[DCLXVI]

Lolz at awkward page breaks, those two posts were a response to macro's 749 btw.

[Macrophage]

Is there anything I could do that would cause you to unvote me?

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (5) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, kortul, DCLXVI
Debonair Danny DiPietro (4) - rhinox, Alicewondering, Macrophage
4nxi3ty (1) - Sleepless Assassin

Not Voting (3) - 4nxi3ty, fishythefish

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 3rd, 6PM PST

[DCLXVI]

Is there anything I could do that would cause you to unvote me?

I'm not sure how to answer this, is it possible my read could change on you, of course, but to be honest I'm not sure what it would take to see you as town. I think acting like town would help. Yes, I'm being intentionally vague.

[Macrophage]

I'm going to try and get my thoughts in order. Please pay attention to them if I am lynched (although preferably before that). I'm not asking you to sheep them or anything, but don't just dismiss them.

Reasonably Strong Townreads:

4nxi3ty
Fishy
hiplop (the only thing about him is that he seems different from how I've seen him play before, so I'm not that sure, but logic says he's town)
kortul
Sleepless

I have what I think are pretty good reasons for thinking all of them town. @Sleepless: I can do a "why I think 4nxi3ty is town" case if you like. Just let me know.

Until recently, I'd only really considered lynching Voided and Debonair today. I had a reasonable townread on DCL from day 1, but now I'm thinking he may be scum, except there are still things that I'm not sure about.

Scummy:

Since the beginning of the day, it's seemed a lot like he wants to suspect me, but has been too hesitant to get on my wagon. He hasn't really mentioned anyone else as possible scum, which I don't really know how to explain, but I think town would consider other people as scum while making up their mind about one person. The thing that has made me think DCL scummy is his vote on me in 748.

First-> The reasons he presents are interesting. As expected, there is the voided read change. The second point is hard for me to figure out. Possibly scum trying look convinced that I'm scum? It's really unnatural considering the reasons for his change in opinion of me from 746, which I'll get to now.

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

The fourth point is really bad and I can easily see scum putting it there just to justify their vote better.

So, back to what I was saying earlier. I don't see how these two poorly thought out additional reasons can lead him to go from making his mind up about me to being convinced I'm scum, especially considering his cautiousness by not voting me. It doesn't make any sense from town, but it does fit together for DCL-scum being concerned about jumping on my wagon and wanting to have sufficient unique reasoning to support it. Even the vote post itself leads me to believe this.

As I'm writing this, I'm becoming more convinced and I may change my vote to see where it goes. I don't know how clearly I've expressed my thoughts though, so please ask if you want me to explain something.

There are things that I'm not sure about though:

I was beginning to get a fairly strong townread on DCL during day 1 and I particularly liked how he didn't just jump on me like everyone else. Also, his responses to my questions have been fairly townish. 730 and 755 are no different from what I'd expect from town. And, I think he's been very pro-town.

Actually another thing that's scummy. He's been using the fact that he sucked day 1 by pushing a lynch of LS as a reason that makes it less believable that I consider him town. I do not really see town thinking like this, whereas scum perhaps worried about being considered so because of it could think that way. But yeah, I don't really see town thinking "Oh crap! I mislynched someone. People will probably see me as scum now".

Unvote: Debonair

Vote: DCLXVI

Please respond.

[Voidedmafia]

Well, you COULD stop acting like a kiss-ass and follow Nacho's advice. Just a suggestion.

But really, you've honestly done nothing to help yourself as of late. Yes, you may have done SOME townie things; yes, you may have claimed VT; yes this, yes that. BUT, those townie things don't make you any townier via outweighing the scummy things you've done; your VT claim just has too much contrived-ness around it to make be any sort of plausible defence (nevermind trying to shut down anything with the, "but I'm town" argument).

Your exaggeration for how I'm taking your posts is pretty far off the map even for an exaggeration, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason you're still alive, it seems, is because of two dead townies stopping one of the DVs. I could be wrong on this, but that seems to be what it's down to.

P-edit: And lo! Speak of it, and it shall come!

The timing of it is somewhat questionable, but I still feel that this was probably one of the best times to put down a post like that, and not just for posterity's sake. It's a pretty townie post, and right now is pretty much what's making me rethink a little.

[Macrophage]

Well, you COULD stop acting like a kiss-ass and follow Nacho's advice. Just a suggestion.

But really, you've honestly done nothing to help yourself as of late. Yes, you may have done SOME townie things; yes, you may have claimed VT; yes this, yes that. BUT, those townie things don't make you any townier via outweighing the scummy things you've done; your VT claim just has too much contrived-ness around it to make be any sort of plausible defence (nevermind trying to shut down anything with the, "but I'm town" argument).

Your exaggeration for how I'm taking your posts is pretty far off the map even for an exaggeration, but the fact of the matter is that the only reason you're still alive, it seems, is because of two dead townies stopping one of the DVs. I could be wrong on this, but that seems to be what it's down to.

P-edit: And lo! Speak of it, and it shall come!

The timing of it is somewhat questionable, but I still feel that this was probably one of the best times to put down a post like that, and not just for posterity's sake. It's a pretty townie post, and right now is pretty much what's making me rethink a little.

How am I being kiss-ass? How am I not scumhunting?

Honestly, how can you say I'm not doing enough when you're the one tunneling on me? And I hate this justification that "well, you've only really done SOME townie things" when there's not much actually scummy about me in the first place. I agree that the PR-followed by VT claim was bad, and if people still thought I was scum for that, I would at least understand, but I am happy I did it, as it ended up stopping me from being lynched right after replacing in and I hate it when people say that I'm scum having done it without considering me doing it as town. However, that doesn't seem to be the main thing that's being used against me at all, which really indicates that scum are trying to avoid pushing on something that could be considered obvtown and trying to paint me as scum in other ways.

I don't think I've been exaggerating anything. You give off the impression that everything I post is scummy.

How is the timing questionable?

And somehow I doubt that your opinion of me will change.

[Voidedmafia]

You're being a kiss-ass by still trying to placate people, and that means you aren't scumhunting enough.

Yes there is much actually scummy about you, your predecessor, and your predecessor's predecessor. If you REALLY care for me to, I can try to document each thing that's scummy for malee, theo, and you, but I feel that we've documented it enough. And I'm tunneling because I believe you're scum. Problem?

Your claim made us waste a lynch on a stupid target, that's what it did. I'm not trying to white-knight myself about LS's death, but I do think that it wasn't a good lynch at all for D1. You would've been a great lynch, alicewondering wouldn't have been bad (though I wouldn't have liked that one either), even Rhinox would've been okay. So GJ, you got yourself a mislynch. Unless someone pulls a scummy rabbit out of their ass anytime soon, I still think you're gonna be dead today, that aforementioned town post aside.

Also, why are you so sure that that's what's going on? Not to mention how laughable it is you're trying to say the claim business is in any way "obvtown".

The timing is questionable because it's not only one of the best times to post at least a pro-town post, but it's also a vergy good time to post something to save your ass.

Well, if you mean change my opinion from scum to town, then no. But, you've gone from "scummy" to "kinda scummy". Not QUITE at the point where I'd unvote you, but you've solidified the ice underneath you somewhat, so to speak.

[DCLXVI]

I promise I will go into more detail about the rest of you post later this afternoon, but I feel like responding to this part now.

There's the *not liking me calling him town*. Firstly, this is exaggerated because I just said something he said was townish. I can't see myself having any problem with someone saying that to me. Secondly, he claims that his response was not actually townish or scummy. I think this strongly indicates scum, because it's trying too hard to justify his reason for voting me, but also because if I'm town, and someone says something I said was town, I would naturally believe that what I said was indicative of town. I could see scum thinking that they didn't do anything townish in a post though. Thirdly, if he believes that I had him as a townread, how does he think he knows my reasoning for calling him town? which I didn't even do! And he's not even asking why I found it townish, which I would expect before going on about how my reasoning is terrible.

Macro's question:

@Kortul/hiplop/voided/debonair/DCL: Are you likely to continue seeing what I post as scummy or do you think you could come to see me as town? If you're town, please answer this question seriously. I understand what it's like to think someone scum and want to get rid of them for a clearer read of the game regardless of their alignment.

My answer:

That really depends on you. If you act like town I hopefully will see you as town. If you act like scum I will most likely see you as scum. I don't see you as definite scum right now.

Macro's response:

These responses have actually been interesting. Voided's is scummy. Kortul's I'm not sure about. DCL's is townish.

So macro calls my response townish. Two reasons why it is bad.

1. My answer wasn't pro-town or anti-town. I don't see what stood out about my answer that would make someone say. OH that is definitely town. It just doesn't make sense. Yes I am town, but I find it odd when people call me town for reasons that are just absurd. It felt like macro was scum trying to buddy up to me.

2. It was conveniently placed, macro felt like I was pushing him, yet I hadn't voted him yet. Calling me town could definitely have been in order to try and keep me off his wagon.

[Sleepless Assassin]

DDD, but if that's the case, why did he claim to be a power role in the first place? If vanilla is such a safe claim for scum to make, why did he feel the need to claim to be a power role first? The fact that he didnt do so defeats your point because macro didn't see vanilla as such a safe claim to make, yet when pressured more, he resigned and claimed vanilla. As scum, I'm sure he'd continue to make something up. His vanilla claim had more of an "ok, you got me. Here's the truth" tone to it.

Void, I'll admit it's not really fresh in my mind and id have to go back and read it again, but I don't remember having the impression that you were leading the wagon.

Macro, if you have a strong town read on 4n and feel he will be lynched without your "town case", feel free. However, I'm the only one voting him so I don't see the point.

Everyone voting macro, read his case on DCL. Don't look at the quality of the case or even whether you agree with it or not. Look at the intent and pick apart macro's brain. It is very obvious that he is convinced part way through the post that he has found scum and presented a great case on why. Scum wouldn't have to convince themselves because they'd know whether they are right ot wrong.

[kortul]

-PR claim then VT claim, the temptation to bang my head against a wall for letting myself get tricked into thinking macro was town for that is very strong

DCLXVI

, i don't remember you commenting on Macro claim earlier, but this post implies you believed the claim before. What are the reasons for your opinion change (not on Macro himself, but on his claim)?

@Sleepless: I can do a "why I think 4nxi3ty is town" case if you like. Just let me know.

Macrophage

, actually, i am interested. Can you do it for me? It might help to understand both of you better.

[Voidedmafia]

DDD, but if that's the case, why did he claim to be a power role in the first place? If vanilla is such a safe claim for scum to make, why did he feel the need to claim to be a power role first? The fact that he didnt do so defeats your point because macro didn't see vanilla as such a safe claim to make, yet when pressured more, he resigned and claimed vanilla. As scum, I'm sure he'd continue to make something up. His vanilla claim had more of an "ok, you got me. Here's the truth" tone to it.

And scum can't do this, too?

Void, I'll admit it's not really fresh in my mind and id have to go back and read it again, but I don't remember having the impression that you were leading the wagon.

I know I was a major pusher on the wagons for both THeo and Macroa, and I think I started the Macro wagon.

Everyone voting macro, read his case on DCL. Don't look at the quality of the case or even whether you agree with it or not. Look at the intent and pick apart macro's brain. It is very obvious that he is convinced part way through the post that he has found scum and presented a great case on why. Scum wouldn't have to convince themselves because they'd know whether they are right ot wrong.

No, they don't have to convince themselves, but they do have to convince everyone else. If macro can do that, then that's still some kudos to him.

However, I do agree that that is incredibly unlikely. That feeling was something I also got from the post (not right at the beginning, but as I reread it), and like I said, it's made me less keen for his lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Sure I’ll accept that; but what does that make you guy who claimed non-VT and then revised it to a VT claim?

DDD, but if that's the case, why did he claim to be a power role in the first place? If vanilla is such a safe claim for scum to make, why did he feel the need to claim to be a power role first? The fact that he didnt do so defeats your point because macro didn't see vanilla as such a safe claim to make, yet when pressured more, he resigned and claimed vanilla. As scum, I'm sure he'd continue to make something up. His vanilla claim had more of an "ok, you got me. Here's the truth" tone to it.

I’m not saying he’s scum because of his claim; I’m just refuting the idea that he has to be town because of his claim. Try this on for size: he’s scum and he makes the non-VT claim to see if he can shake his wagon without opening himself up for a counterclaim; when that doesn’t work instead of making a claim that doesn’t work or gets counterclaimed he revises it to a VT claim knowing that people like you will probably defend his unorthodox play and he still might not get lynched because a VT claim is not the instant death sentence some suggest it is.

[Voidedmafia]

DDD, but if that's the case, why did he claim to be a power role in the first place? If vanilla is such a safe claim for scum to make, why did he feel the need to claim to be a power role first? The fact that he didnt do so defeats your point because macro didn't see vanilla as such a safe claim to make, yet when pressured more, he resigned and claimed vanilla. As scum, I'm sure he'd continue to make something up. His vanilla claim had more of an "ok, you got me. Here's the truth" tone to it.

I’m not saying he’s scum because of his claim; I’m just refuting the idea that he has to be town because of his claim. Try this on for size: he’s scum and he makes the non-VT claim to see if he can shake his wagon without opening himself up for a counterclaim; when that doesn’t work instead of making a claim that doesn’t work or gets counterclaimed he revises it to a VT claim knowing that people like you will probably defend his unorthodox play and he still might not get lynched because a VT claim is not the instant death sentence some suggest it is.

Better worded way of what I wanted to say.

[kortul]

DCLXVI

, i did an ISO looking for your previous opinion on Macro claim, and realized that the only time you gave your reads was when you talked about first impressions. Can you give your current opinion? For obvious reasons town reads shouldn't have any particular order.

I am also interested in the reads from

Alicewondering

,

4nxi3ty

and

hiplop

. We criticized DDD that his list allows him to vote on anyone, but the absence of reads provides the same opportunity. The game progressed well enough to form at least some opinions or impressions.

[4nxi3ty]

...i never saw anyone criticize ddd for that reason

my read on macro is very fragile

and the rest of my reads are currently in transit pending further investigations into alice and fishy.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Void, no, scum can't truthfully claim VT.

DDD, then why wouldn't he claim a less common power role or something? Oh and by the way, unorthodox play also has a tendency to find the ropes. The more you elaborate on why he is scum, the stronger a town case I see.

4n, that is a very vague way to state your reads...

[Macrophage]

@Sleepless: Why are you content to sit on your 4nxi3ty vote without discussing him?

@Debonair: I don't know, but I'm a VT, so...

@Kortul: If it's only for a read of me, I'd rather not say why I think 4nx is town. If you think he's scum or are struggling to read him, I can if you want.

On DCL:

Can people please say what they think of him, and my reasons for thinking him scum.

Another thing I've realised is that I remember suspecting that funky was distancing from my wagon without really trying to stop it. This makes me think that DCL replaced in and found it necessary to not read me as scum because there were already 2 scum attacking me, just as funky did. The read change today for reasons that feel really contrived is something that makes his read of me day 1 less believable I think. I don't really know how to explain the read change from DCL-scum though. Possibly the scumteam decided to all attack me or he's buddies with fishy or rhinox? I'm getting ahead of myself here though, but yeah, thoughts on DCL would be appreciated.

[kortul]

@Kortul: If it's only for a read of me, I'd rather not say why I think 4nx is town. If you think he's scum or are struggling to read him, I can if you want.

Well, "struggling to read him" is close enough, so yes, i would like to hear your thoughts.

[Macrophage]

Hmm, ok then.

Why I think 4nxi3ty is town

Part of the reason for my townread may not be of much use to you, but when I was reading the game, 4nxi3ty would often say exactly what I was thinking at the time. A good example is in 187 where the conflicted feeling over LS was exactly what I felt at the time. I think town are much more likely to have similar thoughts to me and post them instead of scum who are likely to alter what they post to suit their needs.

Also:

-Discussion topic in 222. Also in the same post, he votes Rhinox without providing an explanation and comments on the likely responses. I think scum would be more likely to provide reasoning instead of not caring what people think of them, as 4nx shows there.
-452 he says I'm town against popular opinion, but actually lists reasons and actively responds to someone, which I think indicates that he's town trying to put his thoughts out there and discourage my lynch instead of scum just trying to distance from my wagon. I think him saying he won't fight my lynch today adds to the towntell, because scum would probably try to be consistent and maintain that I'm town, especially when from 4nx-scum's PoV I would be a likely lynch anyway.
-743 is another thing that makes me think town because he's posting and showing that he can without providing any content that day at all. I think scum wouldn't do this because they could easily get attacked for it.

These are the main things that make me think town from his ISO. There are some things which make me think possible scum, but mostly I get a town feel from his post (and the extent to which I agreed with him as I read through is probably a big factor in the strength of my read).

@Kortul: What have you gained from this?

@Sleepless: What do you think of my reasons for thinking 4nx town?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Macro, to answer your first question, I feel I've layed out my case. He responded and I responded back. No one else seems interested except for the fact that you have a town read on him. I'm leaving my vote there to basically say "I think he is scum and I'm not letting it go".

And your other question...honestly, your town case looks more like a case against him except that "scum would never be so obvious". Your first point is the same point I made with the same reasoning except you finish yours with "scum would provide reasoning". Really? How often are people voted for not providing enough reasoning? Next is that he went against your lynch. Well, it looked (or looks) inevidible that you will be lynched at some point. If I was scum and you were town, id want to distance myself from the mislynch. If you are scum, this point (and this discussion for that matter) is null.

The last part is a real gem.

you call 4n town for not providing a lot of content, which scum would apparently never ever do because they'd get attacked. So he MUST be town, right? WRONG

.

Listen. Scum do scummy things. Scumtells are, believe it or not, NOT town tells.

[Voidedmafia]

inevitable*, SA.

Though, I would have to agree with SA on this. Most of the things you mentioned are actually things that scum might do for distancing, etc, as SA already mentioned.

[4nxi3ty]

The last part is a real gem.

you call 4n town for not providing a lot of content,

I am deeply offended by this comment.

SA can you take the time to pressure other people as well? that way you don't squander all of D2 pushing a scumread that is town.