Mini #1317- Game Over!

[jon_h61]

I don't like DCL for previously stated reasons. Everyone seems to think my not expending energy into defending myself is bad, I find all the energy DCL is using to try to defend every minor accusation, along with how he comes on strong against anyone who has even a small suspicion of him suspect. Sure you want to stay alive, but I think he is taking it to extremes. There are far less scum, so they can't aford to lose even one. I was going to place a vote on him, but he went v/la, and I feel that would be bad form in any circumstance.

I'm still unsure of IAAUN, if he'd post more maybe I might change my view of him. But he is in no danger if I'm the only one who has suspicions of him.

If you've been following the game, you should see I've had joker as a backburner suspect, except when he was defending Monkey, He was a white hot suspect then. When joker and Thez were going strong at it I was undecisive and stayed away from that wagon. He posts just enough content to stay off people's radar. He has several fluff posts, which isn't bad in itself, but add it to his low post count, and it starts to look worse. All that said, he's low on my suspect list.

As for you (Haze), your early game play screams scum to me. Your game play changed when I came on strong for you, and I'm glad for that. Why not look for scum seriously earlier in the game? Everybody has their own play style I guess. Maybe?? you're trying to disarm scum by not looking like a threat? I have to believe you're Town, or all my theories go down the toilet. Time will tell.

The reason I seem so indecisive ATM I've been wrong three confirmed times so far, and maybe more. When DCL gets back I'll brace for his tidal wave of walls, and vote him.

[jon_h61]

@ Haze Everytime I bring up something from Mafia Discussion, or some article on playing scum you say that's old news and scum already know that. Well it's new news to me, and I'd rather make sure Town is aware of it too. I MAY be the last person onsite to read MD, but I'd rather make sure scum have a harder time using those certain techniques.

Another thought, DCL was blasting me for not looking for scum teams. I only have 1 vote, I can only lynch one scum a day. That is plenty for me. Maybe somewhere down the road, I'll go after pairs but for now if I can hit one I'm happy.

[jon_h61]

I know DCL isn't around for awhile, but I want to ask this question now so it doesn't get lost later. I've just reread your refutations of IAAUN's arguments against you. In all of it I get the feeling that you are arguing with Town. Do you think he's Town? I'm asking because that's a BIG change from your stance on the slot previously, and may be a factor in my decision on my stance of said slot.

[jon_h61]

We're going to the lake lot, be back tomorrow night.

[thezmon221]

I'm going to go out and put this vote:

VOTE: DCL

Sorry, but you've consistently been my #1 (or VERY high #2) since... a bit before IAAUN came into the game. He's at L-2 from my vote, I believe, so that should give him time to come back tomorrow to vote.

Another thing I'm going to mention is that jon is starting to use more AtE, and I really don't like that. It messes with your head and I'm just not sure why you barely even make an attempt to defend yourself. The only way we can learn things in this game is either
A) from PRs
B) From argument and interaction

Your lack of a want to argue is what really sets me off. I can see where you're coming from, but you also need to step up and interact in that form more so we can analyze more.

I'd be willing to lynch either jon or DCL. I would definitely prefer to lynch DCL, but if jon gets to a point where I still think he has a high chance of being scum and is at L-1, I'd falter less to hammer him.

[deadjoker]

@jon I don't post unnecessarily. As some one recently mentioned, too much discussion just ends up with town talking themselves in circles and the game just gets more and more confusing, which helps scum. Right now the game is at the point one can make anyone out to be scummy. The potential for a mislynch increases by the day.

The epic wall of texts each new spat causes makes the game a lot like a chore, which is why I pleaded in the beginning to keep posts concise.

Personally, i hope VK posts more. He is the only one I can really trust and his analysis is key.

[DCLXVI]

This is rather disappointing, I go V/la for a little over two days. This is the post count while I was gone:

Jon:5
Thezmon:2
Haze:2
Joker:1

well, we are getting to the end of the day and I have one question I think everyone should answer.

Who are the two people you see as the scumteam. At this point we need to be looking at connections between players. Don't need to make a wall explaining it, just say who they are.

Since I asked the question it is only fair I answer it for my self, I consider thez and jon to be the scum team. I think everyone should answer this before anyone (most likely myself or jon) is lynched. People need to come out and be clear who they think are the two scum players left. I think this will help us move forward.

[DCLXVI]

I know DCL isn't around for awhile, but I want to ask this question now so it doesn't get lost later. I've just reread your refutations of IAAUN's arguments against you. In all of it I get the feeling that you are arguing with Town. Do you think he's Town? I'm asking because

that's a BIG change from your stance on the slot previously

, and may be a factor in my decision on my stance of said slot.

I have a slight townread on IAAUN, because of the way his reads dramatically shifted from BP's I don't think I would see this from scum. Can you point to where you get the idea for the part I bolded? Other than suggesting that it might be a good idea to lynch bp's replacement simply because it could be hard to get a read on him, I don't recall calling that slot scummy. Could you back up that statement?

[thezmon221]

Who are the two people you see as the scumteam. At this point we need to be looking at connections between players. Don't need to make a wall explaining it, just say who they are.

I don't necessarily always look for connections whenever I'm playing a game and I'm town because... sometimes you have mafia who is really good at hiding or faking with another person. Don't get me wrong, I DO look for connections, but I don't base completely everything I know around connections. I know, a few pages back I made a whole rant about how DCL could be related to either jon or VK, but even that is a good example why sometimes I don't, because I was mistaken about VK and you being linked.

So, here's what I think:

DCL
jon

Primarily, this is because you two are by far my scummiest, so I'm using a lot of PoE. It's kind of hard for me to find specific connections between every person. Part of it comes from IAAUN joining so lately, that it disrupted all connections I made involving BP.

I have a slight townread on IAAUN, because of the way his reads dramatically shifted from BP's I don't think I would see this from scum. Can you point to where you get the idea for the part I bolded?

Other than suggesting that it might be a good idea to lynch bp's replacement simply because it could be hard to get a read on him, I don't recall calling that slot scummy.

Could you back up that statement?

Why do you think that PLing a replacement isn't scummy? To be honest, it's scummy for two main reasons.
1) You didn't consider letting the replacement give his reads, etc (which IAAUN has now obviously done).
2) You specifically chose BP over Haze, why not both of them?

That's the other thing with the connections, you can add WIFOM into them and mess it all up, such as the above scenario. It COULD mean:
1) DCL is scum with Haze trying to quick lynch BP.
2) DCL is scum with BP, knowing BP won't be lynched, trying to distance himself.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against connections AT ALL. I just don't base entire arguments around them. I'll use them as support, maybe, but anyone can fabricate a legitimate connection between people, though some may be harder to do than others.

[DCLXVI]

Why do you think that PLing a replacement isn't scummy? To be honest, it's scummy for two main reasons.
1) You didn't consider letting the replacement give his reads, etc (which IAAUN has now obviously done).
2) You specifically chose BP over Haze, why not both of them?

I think you are misunderstanding jon's questions, jon was saying that I was very strong on calling bp scum, I was saying that I didn't think I was.

1. As to the policy lynching a replacement thing, I've already addressed it but I'll give the response again. I didn't we should lynch bp's replacement, I said it might be a good idea, after futher thinking about it as well as IAAUN's decent contribution to the game, I decided that that wasn't a good idea.

2. Haze wasn't getting replaced that is why I didn't consider policy lynching his replacement...duh...Um' I did consider haze scummy for a while, I dropped my scum read on haze because I consider you scum and I don't think you would protect a partner like that.

That's the other thing with the connections, you can add WIFOM into them and mess it all up, such as the above scenario. It COULD mean:
1) DCL is scum with Haze trying to quick lynch BP.
2) DCL is scum with BP, knowing BP won't be lynched, trying to distance himself.

Thez you are completely forgetting the game. look at these quotes.

Haze is still around, it shows on his page that he was on the site today. Town haze has no motivation to lurk. Scum haze is free to lurk since BP is also gone and town can't afford to go after both lurkers.

Between the two of them haze is more suspicious.

I said this after I had said the policy lynch on the replacement thing because I realized that it was not a good idea. My read on haze changed because I don't think thez would defend haze like that if they were both scum.

[iamausername]

Who are the two people you see as the scumteam.

I'd say the way this day has gone, jon/DCL looks a lot less likely than I originally thought, so I'm thinking either jon/thez or jon/Antihero.

[thezmon221]

Thez you are completely forgetting the game. look at these quotes.

Haze is still around, it shows on his page that he was on the site today. Town haze has no motivation to lurk. Scum haze is free to lurk since BP is also gone and town can't afford to go after both lurkers.

Between the two of them haze is more suspicious.

I said this after I had said the policy lynch on the replacement thing because I realized that it was not a good idea. My read on haze changed because I don't think thez would defend haze like that if they were both scum.

No, I know. I would have made a more insightful example of connections, but I couldn't think of any off the top of my head. It's only a basic example. The same concept applies where you could make connections between any two people.

I think you are misunderstanding jon's questions, jon was saying that I was very strong on calling bp scum, I was saying that I didn't think I was.

My bad.

1. As to the policy lynching a replacement thing, I've already addressed it but I'll give the response again. I didn't we should lynch bp's replacement, I said it might be a good idea, after futher thinking about it as well as IAAUN's decent contribution to the game, I decided that that wasn't a good idea.

Yes, but the initial thought does deserve something in the form of notice. I mean, sure, after we've all seen IAAUN's contribution, we'd probably all think that PLing him isn't the best of ideas.

2. Haze wasn't getting replaced that is why I didn't consider policy lynching his replacement...duh...Um' I did consider haze scummy for a while, I dropped my scum read on haze because I consider you scum and I don't think you would protect a partner like that.

Haze was on the verge of being replaced, though he wasn't actually replaced. Our Mod almost did go and look for replacements.

[DCLXVI]

Haze was on the verge of being replaced, though he wasn't actually replaced. Our Mod almost did go and look for replacements.

Haze got prodded, he came back and has been more active, I don't think there was ever an attempt to replace him though. In fact I just went through the replacement thread and kdowns never requested a replacement for haze.

[thezmon221]

That's why I said "almost did go and look for replacements."

Haze hadn't posted for... quite a few days at that point.

[DCLXVI]

oh, missed the almost, either way kdowns didn't have to start looking for a replacement.

In other news, it would be very nice if other people started posting more. *cough* *looks at activity overview*

you guys know who you are.

[Viktyr Korimir]

Who are the two people you see as the scumteam.

I'd say the way this day has gone, jon/DCL looks a lot less likely than I originally thought, so I'm thinking either jon/thez or jon/Antihero.

Wait a second. You started off after replacing saying that you couldn't see lynching anyone but DCLXVI. Then, you unvote DCLXVI and vote for Jon because you don't think there's enough support for the DCLXVI lynch... and now you're listing two possible scumteams, neither of which includes DCLXVI, and neither of which is consistent with your earlier reads.

I would like to hear your explanation for this.

[jon_h61]

In Post 201 DCL wrote

"
jon_h61

Jon is the person I think is most likely to be town. He hasn't done anything scummy, he is contributing to the game. If he is scum he is hiding it extremely well cause he has done nothing to indicate he would be anti-town."

In Post 478 DCL wrote

"People I’m slightly suspicious of.

Ice- His being nitpicky with both BP and Viktyr strikes me as odd. Despite what Ice has been claiming, neither has really contradicted them-self. Combined with the fact that I am not suspicious of either BP or Viktyr right now I am slightly suspicious of how he has been acting.

Elmo- Called thez and monkey town day 1. Votes me day 1. Now on day 2 he votes thez and doesn't say anything about me being scum. Seems odd.

Jon- I wanted monkey lynched day 1, but Jon's hammer post rubbed me the wrong way, it did not seem well thought out.

Ok, here is a list of who I would be fine lynching Today:

Deadjoker
Thezmon
Haze
Hoko
Elmo

In 720 DCL wrote

Updated reads:

Town
Jon, I don't see elmo calling a fellow scum: obvious town. I also don't think scum would hammer the first to days on townies, sitting back and letting town do that would seem like the safer option.
Antihero, again, he also is beginning to get suspicous of elmo, doesn't look like bussing to me.
Deadjoker, no way joker would kill ICE as scum. It doesn't make sense why scum would wreck their primary argument.

Null/in-between, honestly I'm not sure what to make of these two, all I can say is they need to be participating more.
BP
Haze

Scum
Viktyr: weird, very harsh jumping on elmo at the end, attempt to distance himself with thez at the beginning. He fits as thez-scumbuddy I think.
Thez: More on him in a future post. [next hour or so if I can,if not I promise it will be up by tomorrow afternoon]

This is April 10th

In Post 854 DCL wrote

"@ Jon, two questions about your last post:

do you consider me and IAAUN scumbuddies, or are we independently scummy?
you appeared to be defending me for the majority of your post, why did you then turn around and end with calling me scum?"

In 861 DCL wrote

"After some really recent scummy posts by jon, I went back and re-read the entire thread focusing on jon. I think he is thez’s parter. Honestly, I don’t know why everyone [including myself ] has called him obvious town the entire game."

Then in 861 I am so hardcore scum that DCL writes a wall to prove it. As far as I can see my recently scummie post was saying I suspected him. I still personally think suspecting the person suspecting you isn't very efficient scum hunting, but what do I know?


As far as a scumteam, I guess DCL and IAAUN though this could change at any time.

When I said I wasn't going to waste a lot of time defending myself. I never said I wasn't going to answer questions asked of me, or refute outright contradictions. I can't answer any tonight though.

Sorry I can't post more tonight, Deb's gotta get up super early for work in the morning. I'll be back on by around 5 AM CSTish.

[DCLXVI]

Who are the two people you see as the scumteam.

I'd say the way this day has gone, jon/DCL looks a lot less likely than I originally thought, so I'm thinking either jon/thez or jon/Antihero.

Wait a second. You started off after replacing saying that you couldn't see lynching anyone but DCLXVI. Then, you unvote DCLXVI and vote for Jon because you don't think there's enough support for the DCLXVI lynch... and now you're listing two possible scumteams, neither of which includes DCLXVI, and neither of which is consistent with your earlier reads.

I would like to hear your explanation for this.

Well, I have my opinion on this. Here it the situation when IAAUN left my wagon.

I was at l-2 with three people on me.

Three people off of me, Jon, Thez, and you Viktyr all had said you thought I was scum. From my own perspective I thought at that point my lynch going to happen fairly quickly. My wagon was by no means falling apart, and even with IAAUN off is still rather strong.

To me that fact that he left a strong wagon suggests that he is not scum. scum would stay put and see my lynch follow through.

PEDIT, will respond to jon tonight

[DCLXVI]

Then in 861 I am so hardcore scum that DCL writes a wall to prove it. As far as I can see my recently scummie post was saying I suspected him. I still personally think suspecting the person suspecting you isn't very efficient scum hunting, but what do I know?

Shrug, I did an entire re-read of the thread in light of the flips and I changed my mind. I'm not the only person to change my mind about you yet you are singling me out. Given that I believe everyone but haze has called me scum at this point, it is completely unfair to say I am OMGUS towards you when that logic could be applied towards every single person I could vote for.

Thez called you town most of the game, he now calls you scum, how convenient of you not to point that out.

@jon the recent scummy posts point I made was to the fact that you blatantly misquoted IAAUN by cutting a quote in half to do a 180 to its meaning. That was the thing that made me do my re-read on you.

So, no I did not omgus jon, and nope, my read change on him is not scummy because it had a good reason behind it.

[Haze]

Hi Guys.

Every time I come back to this page it's only Jon's 3 posts...

I think we're stuck and town motivation is at zero. We need a lynch.

I'm not sure what THez is doing saying I was nearly replaced. I've never even been close. I've only been prodded. I think this issue has been blown out of proportion by many players.

I'll do a reread later tonight and decide.

[Haze]

My vote is already on Jon yeah?

VOTE: Jon

just to make sure. This is the lynch for today.

[iamausername]

Wait a second. You started off after replacing saying that you couldn't see lynching anyone but DCLXVI. Then, you unvote DCLXVI and vote for Jon because you don't think there's enough support for the DCLXVI lynch... and now you're listing two possible scumteams, neither of which includes DCLXVI, and neither of which is consistent with your earlier reads.

I would like to hear your explanation for this.

I don't know where you got the idea that I don't think there's support for the DCL lynch. That's not why I switched my vote, and it would be dumb if it was, because there's clearly plenty of support there.

I've found the way Jon has responded to the pressure on him to be a lot scummier than the way DCL has responded, and I now think that Jon is scummier than DCL.

[jon_h61]

I have a slight townread on IAAUN, because of the way his reads dramatically shifted from BP's I don't think I would see this from scum. Can you point to where you get the idea for the part I bolded? Other than suggesting that it might be a good idea to lynch bp's replacement simply because it could be hard to get a read on him, I don't recall calling that slot scummy. Could you back up that statement?

Now that Thez has answered the question for me, you can say I'm just using his words, but that is exactly what I meant. The part of the quote in question, even the part you bolded -"

that's a BIG change from your stance on the slot previously

" Your calling for a PL on that

SLOT

to your "read" at that moment was a big change. If anyone cares to look at my statement,

I NEVER

said DCL was suspicious of BP.

If I get lynched today, Town should take a good look at my accusers, I'm positive not all of these accusations are coming from Town. As Viktor said earlier I think scum is leading Town around by their noses.

One thing I agree with IAAUN on, more and more words, walls, and arguments just muddy up the picture, making it easier for scum to hide. "

If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit

". It's getting time we put our votes where we think it'll best hit scum.

VOTE: DCLXVI

[jon_h61]

@ DCL if I do die today, I'm curious, who are you going after tomorrow??

[DCLXVI]

@jon, if you flip scum I'm going after thez.

if you flip town, well, I will have to re-look at the situation, but in all honesty a town flip by you will likely mean I will be lynched tomorrow.

Hm, also noticed that I am at l-1

, I would appreciate it if I was not hammered before I can make one final post later today. I have some things to say that I believe might be useful tomorrow.

It would be very scummy to quickhammer me before I get to say it.