Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[Fishythefish]

@Fishy - do you see Macro case as a separate case from Malee and theo? Ie does Macro or his slot look town for you? Because it isn't Macro himself but his predeccesors are the main reason why i see this slot scummy.

Macro looks town to me, not the slot. The other occupants of the slot look scummy, and overall I'd say that the slot is on the town side of the scales. It's the parts of the case that are against Macro I find really bad.

What

specific

stuff has DDD done today that is good and what

specifically

about his play yesterday was a "big useless blank"?

Can you sum up what alice has done D1 & D2 to be in your scumpool?

Yesterday, DDD voted Nacho, for one not very big reason, and just sat on it for most of the day. Then he voted theo on the Amished tell, and when he did he asked me and Rhinox for support. He never made another point against either of them, and never pushed either of these wagons more than saying "yeah, I still think this guy is scum". Other than that, he barely took a stance. It didn't feel like DDD was either trying to catch scum, or even really trying to lynch the people he was calling scum.

I haven't said that DDD has done anything good today, only that he has done something. As for what that is, for a start he actually did a reread of everyone, in 648. It makes decent, but rather isolated, points about people. And he really stops pushing after that - you never see DDD chase up any of the points he makes. It feels like he's made an effort to say something about everyone, but more for show than anything else - after that's out of the way, he's content to sit back and relax on the Macro wagon, as well as defending himself against Rhinox. That defence is ok.

So yeah, having thought more about DDD's posting I think he's reasonably likely to be scum. That seems to be as well as I'm doing at the moment, and his wagon not taking off is a good sign - since I'm pretty sure Rhinox is town, and the only company he's had has been Alice and Macro, who have wandered off into lone wagons. I think scum would be all over a townDDD wagon here - particularly if Macro is scum.

VOTE: DDD

Re: Alice. Well, I thought she was scummy for a while day 1. TBH I can't remember why, but it's still in the back of my mind. And a big reason I dropped that suspicion was because the scummiest other people were on her wagon - but LS was town and Macro is no longer high on my scumlist. I also didn't like the way her play really dropped off when the heat was off her day 1 - it felt like scum who only tried when in danger. And to some extent there's PoE going on here - the list of people who I think are townish to some extent is rather long. Her recent play actually seems pretty townish, though - the sudden and shortlived suspicion on SA would be an odd thing for scum to fake, and her scumreads (or not-town-reads) are unpopular enough that they are likely to be the result of genuine thought.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Alice, it's not a contradiction. Scum can play well just like town can. Also, the lurking thing should be thrown out the window because I had points against Bike.

Avatar change wasn't irrelevant. He changed it to blue which is a color that can mess with someone who plays off of gut and give them a subconcious town read. His response showed nothing to make me wonder further about it though.

The two sharing a PM doesn't mean scum. It just means they share alignment. I don't understand how so many people can vote Bike, yet DCL seems to be a common town read. I'd actually like to hear what everyone saw in DCL that was more townie than Bike was scummy.

[Macrophage]

Unvote: DCL

Vote: Debonair

I was just about to say something about preferring a DCL lynch when I realised I must've said something similar at least twice before. But seriously, please do tell me if any of you want a DCL wagon. Somehow I don't think this will happen though

Also, can everyone on my wagon please move your vote somewhere else (perhaps DCL? *nudge *nudge), or at least say who you'd want to lynch other than me?

@Alice: Did you mean to leave your vote on Sleepless?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

So we’re back to this foolishness, eh?

Yesterday, DDD voted Nacho, for one not very big reason, and just sat on it for most of the day.

I mean it might not matter to you, but when I’m playing with player’s I have experience with I value my personal meta with them extremely highly. It’s the same reason I’ve given you as much of a pass today as I have when I’d usually be up your ass for your disengagement from the game.

As for what that is, for a start he actually did a reread of everyone, in 648. It makes decent, but rather isolated, points about people. And he really stops pushing after that - you never see DDD chase up any of the points he makes. It feels like he's made an effort to say something about everyone, but more for show than anything else - after that's out of the way, he's content to sit back and relax on the Macro wagon, as well as defending himself against Rhinox.

Why should I be all over the place when the top wagon is on my top scumread? I just don’t get how this meshes with your day one criticism; on D1 I’m not pushing things hard enough and then on D2 when I’ve decided to entrench and push I get accused of not looking around enough. I can agree with the theory behind your D1 argument even if I think it ignores some context, but your D2 criticism is nonsense that flies in the face of that.

~~

If I played mafia by the Wiki, I’d accuse Macrophage of OMGUS and say you should lynch him for that but I don’t; so instead ya’ll should lynch him for not being a vanilla townie and for violating the Amished tell.

[4nxi3ty]

I'd actually like to hear what everyone saw in DCL that was more townie than Bike was scummy.

I thought bike was town so I don't think this applies to me.

hmm I need to revisit somethings about alice's and fishy's play.

might place my vote soon.

[Fishythefish]

Valuing of meta comment is interesting and noted for further thought.

Why should I be all over the place when the top wagon is on my top scumread? I just don’t get how this meshes with your day one criticism; on D1 I’m not pushing things hard enough and then on D2 when I’ve decided to entrench and push I get accused of not looking around enough. I can agree with the theory behind your D1 argument even if I think it ignores some context, but your D2 criticism is nonsense that flies in the face of that.

Actually, this is probably pretty fair. Doing a reread covering everyone and then concentrating on one suspect isn't really scummy. It makes the reread look rather forced, but thinking more about it that could equally just be that nothing showed up to rival your main scumread.

I realise than in talking about the Macro case I haven't really covered either of you main points. As I've already said, I don't set much store by the Amished tell. In this instance, it refers to theo saying "[Malee] left me in a big pile of poop". What does that mean? Either that Malee was scummy or simply that there was a big wagon on her. Since he reads the wagon as very forced, I'd say the latter. I think this barely even

is

a negative reference to his predecessor, let alone a scummy one. "Well, this is a big pile of poop Malee's left me in" is a perfectly natural sentiment for town or scum replacing under pressure.

As for your more specific thing about Macro condemning himself, I really don't see where you are getting it from.

@Debonair & Voided: Claiming VT is what VT's generally do too, in case you forgot that... And voided, the read changes aren't scummy because I'm town- more reasonable than any explanations for me being scummy.

Sure I’ll accept that; but what does that make you guy who claimed non-VT and then revised it to a VT claim?

He says that claiming VT is what VT's generally do. More context: Voided and DDD were discussing possible scum motivations, and Macro wanted to remind them that there was a possible town motivation. He doesn't say that claiming VT first is what VT's always, or should, do. This isn't a post of Macro's I particularly like - the sentiment is "I'm town because I'm town", which doesn't do much for me - but reading it as saying Macro would claim VT as VT is forced.

[Sleepless Assassin]

I'd actually like to hear what everyone saw in DCL that was more townie than Bike was scummy.

I thought bike was town so I don't think this applies to me

Correct.

[Voidedmafia]

Fishy: But the point kinda gets turned around, as that then implies that he's not a VT because he didn't claim VT right off the bat. And since I find him being a power role to personally be highly unlikely, what does that make him then?

SA: I found DCL town because he was being active and actually scumhunting unlike his predecessor, the two points that were the main prongs of attack against bike. And of course, since those two points were no longer viable, he becomes a townread. I've already said why he's now null, though.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Activity isn't an alignment tell. It's a free time tell. Unless you can show me games where Bike or DCL lurked as scum at the same time as they were active in a town game, there is no argument for or against their activity in this game. Even then, it may or may not be valid.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (5) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Debonair Danny DiPietro, kortul, DCLXVI
Debonair Danny DiPietro (5) - rhinox, fishythefish, Macrophage
4nxi3ty (1) - Sleepless Assassin
Sleepless Assassin (1) - Alicewondering

Not Voting (1) - 4nxi3ty

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 3rd, 6PM PST

rhinox has been prodded

[Voidedmafia]

Activity isn't an alignment tell. It's a free time tell. Unless you can show me games where Bike or DCL lurked as scum at the same time as they were active in a town game, there is no argument for or against their activity in this game. Even then, it may or may not be valid.

THE POINT BEING that there was no reason to think the slot was scum anymore, and since DCL was doing things that were town, he thus became a townread.

[Rhinox]

my apologies for neglecting this game.

[hiplop]

CAN WE PLEASE JUST GET RID OF MACRO. This has gone on WAY too long, one of the days where a quick end is probably beneficial

[Fishythefish]

Fishy: But the point kinda gets turned around, as that then implies that he's not a VT because he didn't claim VT right off the bat. And since I find him being a power role to personally be highly unlikely, what does that make him then?

I don't really know what you mean by this. Put simply - why is it that you think Macro can't be a VT who decided to claim non-VT to save his skin? As far as I can see, that's neither stupid nor antitown (unlike claiming any specific non-VT, which is both), and nothing he's said implies it's something he wouldn't do.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Void, can you point me to specific examples of DCL's "town things" that outweigh the points I made against funky?

Hip is probably right. This day has run it's course.

unvote, vote DDD

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Fishy: But the point kinda gets turned around, as that then implies that he's not a VT because he didn't claim VT right off the bat. And since I find him being a power role to personally be highly unlikely, what does that make him then?

I don't really know what you mean by this. Put simply - why is it that you think Macro can't be a VT who decided to claim non-VT to save his skin? As far as I can see, that's neither stupid nor antitown (unlike claiming any specific non-VT, which is both), and nothing he's said implies it's something he wouldn't do.

I guess he did use the phrase "generally" in his point but I think the point still stands because it reveals that he made a conscience decision to not behave like a VT and when it's been brought up about why he'd do such a thing he's been all mumbles about being town and using circular logic.

Hip is probably right. This day has run it's course.

unvote, vote DDD

Paraphrase: Somebody else is bored; good excuse to get a town player lynched instead of my scum partner Macro; got it.

[Fishythefish]

@DDD: what is your read on SA generally?

Unless I'm much mistaken, Macro said why he made that claim ages ago; to save his skin.

[Fishythefish]

And he really wasn't responding to "why did you do that?". He was responding to "this is a scum move", which makes quite a difference - it's not evasion, it's just saying what (from Macrotown's POV) is true - he made the move as town, and there's a town explanation.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

And he really wasn't responding to "why did you do that?". He was responding to "this is a scum move", which makes quite a difference - it's not evasion, it's just saying what (from Macrotown's POV) is true - he made the move as town, and there's a town explanation.

Unless I'm much mistaken, Macro said why he made that claim ages ago; to save his skin.

But, crass survivalism isn’t a town move even if it’s admitted up front; it’s a move both town and scum make and usually if you do assign it to one side of the equation or the other you assign it to the scum side of things.

@DDD: what is your read on SA generally?

I had nothing positive to say before and his vote is MASSIVELY bad news; go look back at his last dozen posts; there’s absolutely nothing about me being scum while be fiddles away at 4nxiety being scum and he even calls Malee scummy and solely depends on Macro’s claim switch as the sole reason to oppose his lynch. In #791 he says, “I want my voice to reflect my opinions”. If that’s the case then it’s pretty clear in his opinion I’m not scum because he hasn’t said a word about me, but now that you’ve put me in the danger zone and he’s got an excuse from hiplop he lays down a L-1 vote.

[4nxi3ty]

Unvote,Vote: Macro

thats two wagons with 6 votes, both are at L-1, alice is the deciding vote.

macro is extremely null for me yet I feel that he has become a distraction either way. I would like to see how the game dynamic shifts when he is out of the picture.

[Voidedmafia]

Oh, FFS.

Site goes down, I lose my post, and I"m not retyping it. Suffice to say, there's a couple things that I like about DCL (articulates reads, the VCA, and how he presented his case on LS).

Speaking of the VCA, DCL, are you going to go back to it?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Void, the question was how it outweighs the case on Bike.

[Voidedmafia]

And I answered it, just not as articulate as it would've been had the site not gone down last night.

[kortul]

Fishy is back and kicking, after he voted DDD his wagon skyrocketed to L-1 in less then a day, but that's more because of last will mechanics, since Fishy + Rhinox together weigh 4 votes.

@SA - guess your question isn't for me either, DCL is still on a scummy side for me.

Speaking of DCL, i still want to hear the answers to my questions in 762/766.

[Macrophage]

Unvote: Debonair

Can you claim?