Mini 1316 - Last Will Mafia IV (Over)

[kortul]

Kort, what exactly is your read on 4n?

My read on him slowly shifting to the town side, but that's more of a general feeling and the fact that on day 2 i can actually understand his logic and like some of his questions and comments. It may be somewhat affected by the other game we are in right now, that is near the end, but until it is finished i can't be entirely certain how reliable is my understanding of 4nx as a player.

@Fishy - do you see Macro case as a separate case from Malee and theo? Ie does Macro or his slot look town for you? Because it isn't Macro himself but his predeccesors are the main reason why i see this slot scummy.

@Macro - your quote isn't complete. My understanding of DDD logic in his post is this: you know that VT should claim VT, yet your initial claim was different, explanation was just "i'm vanilla", therefore you are scum. I don't see things the same way, and actually don't understand both those who strongly believe that your claim is scum tell, and those who strongly believe that your claim is town tell.

Can you explain why are you "starting doubt 4nx townread"?

[4nxi3ty]

Why the avatar change?

cause I felt like it

@4n: if you remember, what were you thinking about SA's case at this point? Later, you responded to it, and you had pretty reasonable explanations. Why didn't you post them at the time, to try to convince SA you were town?

overly ambitious association scumhunting. why should I be worried about convincing every single person in the game that I am town D1?

It may be somewhat affected by the other game we are in right now

please do not discuss ongoing games.

[4nxi3ty]

Lol LS.

I would like to revisit this post.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDP drops down to the slightly scummy range. It's nice that he's using more than the amished tell against you, but the fact that that was pretty much his only point of attack against you for quite a while doesn't sit right.

I've lynched people before on just that tell and it's worked out well for me before. But I really like my latest argument as well; by his own words he says a vanilla townie should do X; he did Y which screams to me that he's not a vanilla townie.

I don't know what to think of this post. What do others think?

[Fishythefish]

I’ve already trapped him with his own words; he knows what a vanilla townie SHOULD have done and yet he has no explanation for what he did other than, "uh, but I'm vanilla". Busted.

Are you serious?

I don't know what to think of this post. What do others think?

@Fishy: I'm starting doubt my 4nx townread, but despite what has been said, I do think I have good reasons to think him town. What do you think of them?

@Voided: Imagine I've been lynched and have flipped town. How do you see the game then?

*Looks up 4n reasons*.

Well, myself I haven't experienced the "yeah, that's exactly where I am" tell from 4n's posting at all. And the others seem pretty weak. 222 and 743 "scum wouldn't do that because it's too scummy", which I don't think works at all well. 452 is a decent post defending you, but if you are scum it's not something that would be particularly unlikely from scum. It does make me think you unlikely buddies; scum are rarely brave enough to push back at a correct lynch at L-1.

@4n: if you remember, what were you thinking about SA's case at this point? Later, you responded to it, and you had pretty reasonable explanations. Why didn't you post them at the time, to try to convince SA you were town?

overly ambitious association scumhunting. why should I be worried about convincing every single person in the game that I am town D1?

So, what made you think that SA was hopelessly tunnelled on a you/funky team? That's what's weird to me - you basically said you weren't going to try and persuade him because he was beyond reason, and I don't get that at all from his posts. Looks like an easy way to write off a case.

OK. I'm reasonably comfortable with the image of voided as a tunnelled town whose tunnel slowly petering out into dissatisfaction with the game. That takes my lynch pool down to 4n, DDD and Alice. I really want to hear Alice's case on SA, and a reply from 4n to the above. On DDD, for some reason I feel like it's something I can crack by thinking harder, and I'll have another bash at it today. For now,

VOTE: 4n

[Sleepless Assassin]

Kort, can you be more specific with examples regarding your 4n read? What logic, questions, and comments did you like from him and why? I'm not sure if this is the case or not, but it's happened to me before: Be sure you aren't confusing the two games. ISOs help.

[4nxi3ty]

So, what made you think that SA was hopelessly tunnelled on a you/funky team? That's what's weird to me - you basically said you weren't going to try and persuade him because he was beyond reason, and I don't get that at all from his posts. Looks like an easy way to write off a case.

...I never said he hopelessly tunneled on a funky/me team... I never said I wasn't going to try and persuade him... And I never said he was beyond reason...

I "wrote off his case" by: not responding to it D1 and than responding to it D2 (eventhough he never followed up on his request for a response)

[DCLXVI]

@Mod & everyone else, going to be going v/la from now till Thursday afternoon. Just have a ton of projects due Thursday and I'm thinking I will not have time to post on MS.

[Fishythefish]

So, what made you think that SA was hopelessly tunnelled on a you/funky team? That's what's weird to me - you basically said you weren't going to try and persuade him because he was beyond reason, and I don't get that at all from his posts. Looks like an easy way to write off a case.

...I never said he hopelessly tunneled on a funky/me team... I never said I wasn't going to try and persuade him... And I never said he was beyond reason...

I "wrote off his case" by: not responding to it D1 and than responding to it D2 (eventhough he never followed up on his request for a response)

Actually, my last post does exaggerate things a bit. What I'm talking about is this post:

So... you . . . Don't defend yourself ever in a mafia game or...?

don't be ridiculous, I wouldn't be playing the game if I never had to defend myself. Just not a priority of mine to dispel every accusation thrown at me,

especially when that person already has it cemented into their head that me and funkybile are scum.

Not arguing with someone because something is "cemented in their head" reads to me as dismissing them by saying they are too tunnelled to persuade - and that's the only actual reason you give for not defending. Am I reading you wrong?

[4nxi3ty]

the main reason is the first part of that sentence; D1 I prioritize looking for scum over dispelling every accusation. The second part of that sentence is me attempting to get SA to realize he had an idea cemented into his head that is wrong.

Can you go into detail about why you think DDD's play is nicer than yesterday?

[Voidedmafia]

DDP drops down to the slightly scummy range. It's nice that he's using more than the amished tell against you, but the fact that that was pretty much his only point of attack against you for quite a while doesn't sit right.

I've lynched people before on just that tell and it's worked out well for me before. But I really like my latest argument as well; by his own words he says a vanilla townie should do X; he did Y which screams to me that he's not a vanilla townie.

I guess that makes sense, and that is why I like you more now.

[kortul]

Kort, can you be more specific with examples regarding your 4n read? What logic, questions, and comments did you like from him and why?

I had trouble understanding (and therefore reading) him day 1, today i find him more logical, therefore he is slightly leaning town for me now. I don't rely on his general behavior after last month meta research, only on logic/interactions/votes. For example, I liked ISO 34, and agreed with:

it is too early for wagon analysis, you need at least one scumflip. I have to agree that I don't really like DDD's wide range negative attack on everyone.

In ISO 35 i understood logic in his answers to ISO 7 and ISO 8, and notation scum!Danny reminded me of the times when i was programmer. I liked questions/comments in ISO 36, good questions in ISO 39.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote Count

Macrophage (5) - Voidedmafia, hiplop, Deboniar Danny DiPetro, kortul, DCLXVI
4nxi3ty (3) - Sleepless Assassin, fishythefish
Debonair Danny DiPietro (2) - rhinox
DCLXVI (1) - Macrophage
Sleepless Assassin (1) - Alicewondering

Not Voting (1) - 4nxi3ty

With 13 votes in play it takes 7 to lynch
Deadline is May 3rd, 6PM PST

Apologies for any recent inactivity, I just turned in my senior design project, have my defense of it this saturday and then hopefully graduate. Looking up from here.

[Fishythefish]

the main reason is the first part of that sentence; D1 I prioritize looking for scum over dispelling every accusation. The second part of that sentence is me attempting to get SA to realize he had an idea cemented into his head that is wrong.

Can you go into detail about why you think DDD's play is nicer than yesterday?

I still don't really understand what you meant. The bit I bolded really reads to me as saying SA is tunnelled, not just that he's wrong. I guess there's not much more to say on this.

I think DDD's actually doing stuff today. I haven't really got a read on that stuff, but I'm hopeful that I can, whereas yesterday he was a big useless blank.

[Voidedmafia]

Good luck, Llama!

Fishy: Maybe, but it doesn't seem to be a lot of stuff. Then again, I'm not doing shit either, so I'm not one to talk <_<.

[Macrophage]

@Kortul: I think I've already explained why I claimed the way I did. About doubting my 4nx townread: I'm questioning how valid my reasoning was for thinking him town. I don't think I'm as confident as I was, but I still think they're decent. And I don't really think much of the Fishy/Sleepless' reasons for suspecting him.

@Debonair: It's actually this.



Someone vote DCL with me!

[Macrophage]

Nooooo. I guess this will have to do instead.

[Voidedmafia]

...*sigh*

Also, DCL only gets my vote tomorrow, and that's if you flip town.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD, have you ever seen a VT fakeclaim or a mafia discussion thread where it was discussed? I'm not necessarily saying it's the right thing to do, but the fact that it's out there means it's an option that it happened here. You seem to accept no answer except "welp, he fakeclaimed. MUST be scum." Like, I don't even think you are trying to determine what happened. You are either scum who already knows or town who refuses to remove the blinders.

I've seen a VT (counter-)claim Mason in an Open game (Friends and Enemies 3 goons, 3 masons, rest vanilla); I've also seen a VT claim doctor in a newbie game. Like I said it's certainly a possibility, I haven't ruled out the possibility of him being a VT completely, but I think the internal logic that Macrophage revealed shows why I think it was a fake claim.

[4nxi3ty]

I still don't really understand what you meant. The bit I bolded really reads to me as saying SA is tunnelled, not just that he's wrong. I guess there's not much more to say on this.

I think DDD's actually doing stuff today. I haven't really got a read on that stuff, but I'm hopeful that I can, whereas yesterday he was a big useless blank.

If I thought SA was tunneling I would've specifically said he tunneled.

this is what I said:

The second part of that sentence is me attempting to get SA to realize he had an idea cemented into his head that is wrong.

And this is why I thought that:

Overall: Holy fuck, 4n is scum. Assuming I'm right, Malee is town because there is no way they are buddies. Bike and 4n are definitely buddies though. If I was a dayvig, I'd be shooting 4n in this post and voting Bike because they both need to die Day 1.

What

specific

stuff has DDD done today that is good and what

specifically

about his play yesterday was a "big useless blank"?

Can you sum up what alice has done D1 & D2 to be in your scumpool?

[4nxi3ty]

ebwop
*this is what I said:

especially when that person already has it cemented into their head that me and funkybile are scum.

[Fishythefish]

Meh. 4n's responses make me less than keen about my vote.

UNVOTE:

What specific stuff has DDD done today that is good and what specifically about his play yesterday was a "big useless blank"?

Can you sum up what alice has done D1 & D2 to be in your scumpool?

I'm not ignoring this, but don't have time to address it now.

[kortul]

Fishy, when you will have time, can you answer my question as well? There are unanswered questions to DCL and Alice as well. We have a little more than a week left, but it isn't that much actually.

[Alicewondering]

First off, I want to apologize for not being as active as I should be. This time is crazy and really hard for me. I'm considering replacing out if my activity levels aren't very good. Let me know what you guys think. I might only be able to post every couple of days or something with the amount of sleep I've been getting.

Alice, lurking wasn't one of my points against Bike. Also, what evidence?

I know. I didn't say it was a point against Bike. I just noticed how convenient a push on Bike is, as he happened to be a lurker. "Evidence" would be how you thought DCL's play looked good. How could you think that about DCL, yet still think the slot is scummy? There seems to be a contradiction there. Kortul, this is why I like an SA vote. There's a contradiction there.

I like DCL's play. I think that DCL's entrance into the game was good with authentic scumhunting attempts.

Kortul, I don't really have great reads right now. I have mostly town reads and null or null-scum reads. SA is scumread. Fishy is a null read as well. I'll consider other people when someone flips today.

Why the avatar change?

Why draw attention to things that are irrelevant and not scummy?

Onto why I voted SA:
The initial reason was his scumread on Bike. Bike hardly did anything for that slot, so I was interested to see what he thought of DCL's play. He said that DCL's play was solid, yet because the two shared a PM, the slot must be scum. I am confused as to how he came to that conclusion. Bike's play doesn't make DCL automatically scum. If anything, DCL's strong play should overshadow uncertainties surrounding Bike. I think there is a contradiction there, and it doesn't seem like a genuine scum read.

Actually, upon reading SA ISO, I'm having some second thoughts. So... I actually no solid scumreads.

[Alicewondering]

I don't have good scumreads, so I thought I might go about this a different way, by breaking down my stronger town reads and looking at who;'s left. So I took another look at the player list. Here's what I came up with. The reads are in no particular order, and I have not partitioned townreads at all to avoid revealing anything about my will.

Town:
Macrophage--fairly believable VT claim and reaction to case
DDD--posts indicate a motivation to scumhunt
Hiplop--posts also indicate motivation to scumhunt
Kortul--scumhunting, asks good questions actively
DCLXVI--authentic scumhunting
4nx--responses and scumhunting all seem genuine and townie
Sleepless--most of his posts can be seen from a town motivated perspective

Not Town:
Voided
Fishy
Rhinox

My idealized guess is that there is 1 scum in the town category and 2 in the "not town" category, assuming there are 3 scum team members in a game of 13. When I get more time, I will hopefully reread ISO's for these three people on the "not town" list.