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Post Post #200 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:19 pm

Post by DeasVail »

Vote Count 1.06


Beyond_Birthday (2)- asher1611, Timeater
ChaosOmega (2)- Benmage, PeregrineV
Slandaar (2)- Fat_Tony, Quagmire
Senjai (1)- ChaosOmega
asher1611 (1)- Slandaar
PeregrineV (1)- DLG

Not voting: Senjai, Beyond_Birthday, Code_X, Elias_the_thief

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

V/LA


Fat_Tony- Until Tuesday

Deadline


10th May, 4pm AEST
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Post Post #201 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:24 pm

Post by Code_X »

First off this post, probably won't make a great deal sense of to you, but is merely my thoughts as I've read through the thread.

Spoiler:
Flavour post - Thing that strikes me and is probably completely irrelevant is that Fat_Tony, Slandaar and Senjai are referenced three times and seemed to be linked in the write up, somehow. Not suggesting anything but I'd consider it to be some kind of grouping the mod has used - where by one may well be potentially bad. I have in the past modded/played in games with flavour where town and mafia are linked as they are here.

The self-voting I'm kind of ambivalent to - either scum/town could well do. I'd have spend time looking at patterns to make anything of it - people who use as an excuse are of more concern in my opinion.

The Neighbours make-up somewhat meh to me - though my understanding would be that one of the three would be scum, though possible 2 of them maybe. Distancing perhaps from Benmage and CO? PV weighs in later on Ben's side and seems adamant that one of three is bad 90%.

Senjai's vote in bugs me as he seems to just ignore the previous 7/8 posts between CO, Benmage and DV. Which were not random crap.

DLG - slings his vote on CO. After PV. Digs out Senjai "Right with you on this. Senjai's entrance was weak." Agreed.

Asher 30 also bugs me
In post 30, asher1611 wrote:Maybe I missed it though, but how do we know one of the neighbors has to be scum? Couldn't 10% towards 3 town be a little low?

Slightly reads to me as though he knows none of them are - pushing it that direction - but than "guess" happy to go with the assumption anyway.

Also don't like 32 from BB - which again deflects the CO/Benmage argument - kind of feels like knowledge again
In post 32, Beyond_Birthday wrote:EBWOP: Sounds like town arguing town (right now)


Chaos Omega says Asher makes random vote. Which is true. He does though ignore Senjai's random vote. Why I wonder!

- reads off to me. He's not buddying "hard"
In post 35, Timeater wrote:@DLG You are buddying me hard. Why?

Also puzzled why he's called Senjai out.

Not particularly sure why Timeater then picks Benmage up on his site-meta and fact he rustles players up the wrong way.

Chaos Omega - to me through this little patch does read townish/genuine. Though I recall playing against him in the past and he's definitely no mug/newb.

TImeater continues to ignore the neighbours topic. Votes BB assuming it's due to this from

Asher's seems pretty defensive to what was nothing more than a harmless prod from CO.
In post 51, asher1611 wrote:I agree there. To be honest, I didn't appreciate the significance of the information Benmage posted, I just assumed he was referring to something in the flavor text.

That's what I get for posting while distracted.
I'll try and do better
.


Timeater's vote on BB obviously wasn't that solid. Moves to Senjai for what appears lurking.

Not liking much from Slandaar, the vote appears to be a move to the biggest wagon and then throws dirt at Senjai, like a few others.

What is RVS?

Senjai's again seems off to me - defends CO in pieces, yet then votes him to accelerate the town!
In post 56, Senjai wrote:Benmage comes off scummy in the beginning after magically determining Chaos is scum in pregame without providing any real reason why.

In post 56, Senjai wrote:Chaos crossvote is expected given that Ben claimed he was scum without any real evidence so far. It is a reactionary post and I'd have done no different. I slightly think ben is scummier than Chaos


Sides with PV.

Then this bit is pretty terrible.
In post 56, Senjai wrote:For the sake of progressing town I'll VOTE: Chaos Though be sure Ben if he flips town your his biggest advocate and my vote will be on your Day 2.


Says Timeater is scum-hunting and has a slight
town tell
on him.
Then almost seems aploogetic about his vote

In post 60, Senjai wrote:Also we need to hear more from elias and fat. avoid a L-2 situation until then so they dont speedhammer.


Sensei bunged CO to L-2!!

CO votes Senjai. Spot on where I'm reading this little situation.

In post 67, ChaosOmega wrote:It's like you know I'm town, so that when I'm mislynched, day 2 you can go, "Well, now we can lynch Benmage, I knew he was scummier, look, I said it day 1!"


CO reads town to me.

DLG's vote in - reads like he's putting suspicion on Senjai, but then his vote against BB is a pretty lame-duck excuse for not reading the first post in the thread.

80 - This just seems too definite and wrong

In post 80, Senjai wrote:No - I think one of you is. Lynching one will identify the other. This answers DLG's question: Even though I think ben was scummier in that discussion - Im voting Chaos to progress town. Should he flip the scum is likely Ben.



CO posts a reasonable argument in , before Time posts some link. I ain't clicking on it and then Senjai votes TIme in 84 which reads like he's almost given up the ghost on trying to push a wagon which is at L-2. What specifically made you change your mind Senjai?

Slaandaar isn't contributing and ignores the argument. Does then question Senjai.

Birthday says Senjai's looks town. Looks opposite to me -
defending here.
I like Timeater's post in 114. I don't like Timeater's post in 115.

Asher contributes very little in . Almost an educated "don't do this we lose a townie"
In post 120, asher1611 wrote:We lose a town member though, possibly unnecessarily.


Quag defends Senjei subtlely. Accuses him of bad logic more than anything.
In post 127, Quagmire wrote:But, bad logic is almost never a scumtell, and I'm getting a pretty neutral read from Senjai, and I don't think there's much information that can be gleaned from it.


Not sure if bad logic never applies to scum. Yes, they are probably more analytical about posts and less likely to make really stupid posts

Not sure what to make of Asher's big post . Will need to review. Timeater back on that wagon.

Birthday seems meek to me. Peregrine V brings zip all to the table, vote stays. Anything else you want to add PV? What do you make Senjei for instance?

Not too sure what to make of the Elias/Time spat. Benmage has come back and really kept going on at Chaos. I will re-read everyone in isolation but for now.


Vote: Senjai
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Post Post #202 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:36 pm

Post by Beyond_Birthday »

In post 178, Elias_the_thief wrote:
In post 164, Timeater wrote:@
shea

@BB
- What game did we play together? What was inane about their tiff? The PoE argument I'm referring to one made by BM's, that Chaos must be scum because at least 1 of 3 neighbors should be scum, and because peregrin trying to "break the game" was protown, leaving only Chaos as potential scum. What do you think of his argument?


1. Look at my join date. It would have been around then.
2. IT doesn't lead anywhere. It's just a stupid debate that attracts people to talk which leads to what the games about: talking about people talking about inane things and thus deriving a day 1 conclusion.
3. The PoE object is terrible. I don't think there are necessarily neighbors (and if i am wrong, that makes it better, but neighbors doesn't necessarily mean scum-mafia or scum-sk. Why trust them unless assured of alignment.)
4. The game breaking argument is just thrown out there too. I don't think it's more than scum possibly earning brownie points or town saying something that is kind of obvious to everyone, and it fails anyway. It's not a sure thing so it's just meh.

Hi DLG. I remember someone mentioning me in relation to you. I take it that your voting me. Post 198 looks town driven.

Post 199-

Link: If PV is scum, time is more likely to be scum. (the reverse does not necessarily hold true.)

Code: Give good analysis, not sure of alignment.
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Post Post #203 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:37 pm

Post by Beyond_Birthday »

EBWOP: Tags above are poorly done, the quote is from elias, not from timeeater.
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Post Post #204 (ISO) » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:00 pm

Post by Slandaar »

It seems suicidal for a scum to try and compare pms to the other neighbours

Asher dropping his argument after 1 post and hopes it will go away; scum.
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Post Post #205 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 12:50 am

Post by Slandaar »

hrm

Senjai never did post his promised content
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Post Post #206 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 1:13 am

Post by asher1611 »

In post 204, Slandaar wrote:Asher dropping his argument after 1 post and hopes it will go away; scum.

I've already responded to what you said, and you went right back to essentially saying "no, you're wrong, it's what I said before."

There's nothing really new to say on my end other than "no, you're wrong" and "I'm poking holes in people's play."

Or would you like to have a 30 post back and forth saying the same thing on the subject?
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Post Post #207 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 3:28 am

Post by asher1611 »

And while we're on the topic of how people play Slandaar, I do find it interesting you were busy asking for other people's opinions and contributing little until I told you to post something and until Quagmire wrote this post:

In post 129, Quagmire wrote:
In post 121, Slandaar wrote:Asher read on time?

Chaos read on PV?


Hey Slandaar. You've been a nice little moderator so far this game. Let's hear what you think.
VOTE: SLANDAAR

Hurrying into action with weak arguments against someone with no votes leaving the door open for you to hop onto another more popular wagon? Peculiar.

Meanwhile, welcome Code_X!

In post 201, Code_X wrote:Flavour post - Thing that strikes me and is probably completely irrelevant is that Fat_Tony, Slandaar and Senjai are referenced three times and seemed to be linked in the write up, somehow. Not suggesting anything but I'd consider it to be some kind of grouping the mod has used - where by one may well be potentially bad. I have in the past modded/played in games with flavour where town and mafia are linked as they are here.

Flavor post is flavor. I really doubt we have another set of neighbors (or a similar group) and if we did I
reeealy
doubt they would be revealed in the flavor text -- at least in a mini normal game. And throwing the whole scum team into the flavor text is obviously not going to happen.

As for one of them being scum? Sure it's possible -- but not because they appear in the flavor text. That's trying to win on post 1, which I thought I read some people chastise earlier in this thread (or was it another game?).

In post 201, Code_X wrote:Asher 30 also bugs me
In post 30, asher1611 wrote:Maybe I missed it though, but how do we know one of the neighbors has to be scum? Couldn't 10% towards 3 town be a little low?

Slightly reads to me as though he knows none of them are - pushing it that direction - but than "guess" happy to go with the assumption anyway.

I can see your point here. But I saw so many people taking Benmage's assumption that there was one neighbor scum as fact. Plus knowing that people have a tendency to look at numbers like PV posted and adopt them in their mind, I at least wanted to raise the possibility. A lot of the neighbor talk has a basis on QT postings that cannot be shared in this thread. We can't just sit silently and look at it, people have to speak up instead of letting Ben/Chaos/PV do all the lifting.

Is your concern that I raise one possibility and then raise other possibilities? There is such a thing as arguing or analyzing in the alternative. it doesn't mean I'm flip-flopping my views, only that I'm trying to look at the problem from multiple angles.

In post 201, Code_X wrote:Asher's seems pretty defensive to what was nothing more than a harmless prod from CO.
In post 51, asher1611 wrote:I agree there. To be honest, I didn't appreciate the significance of the information Benmage posted, I just assumed he was referring to something in the flavor text.

That's what I get for posting while distracted.
I'll try and do better
.


It wasn't a prod, it was my response to a mention of me mistakenly missing the significance of Benmage's neighbor information and coming in with a random vote. Had a very tough time last week IRL. Things are better this week, but still tough. It was an honest mistake though.

I will add that I do like how targeted and pointed your long post was (I could use to do better with mine) -- but I'll need to consider it with the other post made by Choice, who you replaced.
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Post Post #208 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 3:32 am

Post by Quagmire »

V/LA until Friday.
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Post Post #209 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 4:24 am

Post by Slandaar »

'Poking holes' in peoples play is fake scumhunting.
Especially when you encourage said person to make a bigger case

Need more asher votes.
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Post Post #210 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 5:30 am

Post by ChaosOmega »

Code_X wrote:He does though ignore Senjai's random vote. Why I wonder!

I missed his. asher1611's random vote was in my mind because I saw him post it right before one of my posts, but I guess Senjai's just slipped through me seeing it. I think Senjai is scum, anyway, so him choosing to ignore the first main issue of this game with a random vote isn't really surprising.

Beyond_Birthday wrote:I don't think there are necessarily neighbors

Maybe I'm not understanding you here. Are you saying you think there's a chance me, Benmage, and PeregrineV aren't neighbors?

Beyond_Birthday wrote:IT doesn't lead anywhere. It's just a stupid debate that attracts people to talk which leads to what the games about: talking about people talking about inane things and thus deriving a day 1 conclusion.

A stupid debate? We were in the random voting stage, that quickly took us out of it and gave us actual information to talk about. Have to disagree with you about it not leading anywhere.

And PeregrineV, you're posting in other games, but you're not posting jack shit for scumhunting over here. All you've done is post bullshit numbers, talked about the neighbors for a bit, and then sat on your laurels.
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Post Post #211 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 5:35 am

Post by asher1611 »

In post 209, Slandaar wrote:'Poking holes' in peoples play is fake scumhunting.
Especially when you encourage said person to make a bigger case

Need more asher votes.

Oh so you do want that 30 post back and forth.

What in the world does "fake" scumhunting even mean? It's like you're trying to put a hat on a dog so that you can call it a cat. You're throwing out labels that are the basis of your opinion and essentially meaningless or opinion-centric.

And what's wrong with encouraging someone to make a bigger case? If they're town, they've got nothing to hide. If they're scum they're more likely to slip.

Also, if one pokes holes in someone's play, and then their play becomes inconsistent later down the line, then depending on the circumstances there's a good chance that player is scum.

Feeling a little short-sighted today?
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Post Post #212 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 5:43 am

Post by ChaosOmega »

asher1611 wrote:What in the world does "fake" scumhunting even mean?

I know you're discussing this with Slandaar, but I want to interject. Do you believe that all scumhunting done in a game is genuine?
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Post Post #213 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 6:07 am

Post by asher1611 »

In post 212, ChaosOmega wrote:
asher1611 wrote:What in the world does "fake" scumhunting even mean?

I know you're discussing this with Slandaar, but I want to interject. Do you believe that all scumhunting done in a game is genuine?

Of course it isn't. "[A]ll scumhunting" is a very broad net to throw and with this kind of setup it is possible for scum to both try and give crap scumhunting and attempt to draw out any potential town power roles. I guess the term would be "role hunting"?

But there is a difference between saying someone is not being genuine or being fake and explaining why or how someone is being not genuine/fake.

It's easy to shout at someone "you lie" and then hide behind the statement while saying little else.

It is an entirely different matter to illustrate how someone is lying.
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Post Post #214 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 6:19 am

Post by ChaosOmega »

asher1611 wrote:Of course it isn't.

So then you're conceding that there is such a thing as fake scumhunting.

asher1611 wrote:But there is a difference between saying someone is not being genuine or being fake and explaining why or how someone is being not genuine/fake.

Well, I agree, but why did you say this?
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Post Post #215 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 7:06 am

Post by asher1611 »

In post 214, ChaosOmega wrote:
asher1611 wrote:Of course it isn't.

So then you're conceding that there is such a thing as fake scumhunting.

asher1611 wrote:But there is a difference between saying someone is not being genuine or being fake and explaining why or how someone is being not genuine/fake.

Well, I agree, but why did you say this?

No, post 213 is not a concession to post 211. I made the same points in both posts, and nowhere did I say there was no such thing as fake scumhunting.

As I said in my response to Slandaar, he's putting a label on my actions and stepping aside. Maybe I illustrated it a little too colorfully instead of being succinct. So I guess I'll just address my own questions while Slandaar gets to sit by in impunity and form his answer to match what I said (or just type "LOL ur scum Asher votes please").

What in the world does "fake" scumhunting even mean?

The term "fake" is a loaded term. It can go in a number of different directions. Is it anti town play? Is it derp-town play? Is it someone who is merely trying to apply pressure to somebody to gauge their reaction? (ex. Elias going after Time) Is it scum appearing to look town? There are a number of possibilities, thus the word carries a negative connotation while not having a clear meaning, such as "u suck" or "ur bad".

It's like you're trying to put a hat on a dog so that you can call it a cat.

So lets break down the image.

There's a dog: this is my reasoning for my vote. It stands on its own by itself (and sometimes licks its junk).
There's a hat: this is the label Slandaar gave my reasoning: fake
There's a cat: this is an attempt to make the label and the reasoning fit together by only saying it does

You're throwing out labels that are the basis of your opinion and essentially meaningless or opinion-centric.

The extent of what he has done is merely call my words fake. It is an opinion standing by itself that he attempts to assert as fact. But until he can point to something that substantiates his opinion, which at this point seems to be because he did not get the response from me he was looking for, all he's doing is blowing smoke and trying to get me to corner myself in a box and get lynched.

TL;DR: my posts in 211 and 213 say the same thing, just in different ways.
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Post Post #216 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 8:01 am

Post by ChaosOmega »

If not all scumhunting is genuine, then by definition, some of it must be fake. If you agree with the first premise, you must also agree with the second.

asher1611 wrote:The term "fake" is a loaded term. It can go in a number of different directions. Is it anti town play? Is it derp-town play? Is it someone who is merely trying to apply pressure to somebody to gauge their reaction? (ex. Elias going after Time) Is it scum appearing to look town? There are a number of possibilities, thus the word carries a negative connotation while not having a clear meaning, such as "u suck" or "ur bad".

Fake is not a loaded term. It's black and white, you are either genuinely looking for scum or are not. Doing a poor job of it has nothing to do with it.

asher1611 wrote:The extent of what he has done is merely call my words fake. It is an opinion standing by itself that he attempts to assert as fact.

That makes it seem like Slandaar came out of the blue without any comments on your play and said that.
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Post Post #217 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 11:52 am

Post by asher1611 »

I hate doing this, especially with a game like this that was interesting from Day 1.

What I alluded to last week was that my wife got her termination notice at work. We have a 5 month old to support at home.
Today I got my two weeks notice at my job. When it rains it pours.

Mafia has to take a back seat.

request replacement
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Post Post #218 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Post by ChaosOmega »

That sucks. I hope everything works out well for you and your family.
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Post Post #219 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 12:23 pm

Post by DLG »

Sorry to hear that, asher1611. Good luck with all.
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Post Post #220 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 12:43 pm

Post by DLG »

In post 161, DLG wrote:
Slandaar wrote:BB is derpy not scummy

Since when are these mutually excluisve?

This was not rhetorical, Slandaar. I want to know more about your read on Beyond_Birthday.

Why would you call him "derpy"? It looks like you are jsut trying to sweep him under the rug so no one pays attention to him. I don't understand that approach.

Beyond_Birthday wrote:Hi DLG. I remember someone mentioning me in relation to you. I take it that your voting me. Post 198 looks town driven.

Well, I was. And have absolutely no objection to lynching you. Answer my accusations/questions. Post 34 and Post 116.

Also, who's scum? Outside of a potential associative tell on Timeater, I just don't see any suspects from you.

Where'd Senjai and PeregrineV run off to?

This looks like they just want all the attention to go somehwere else. It's scummy.

Which one hangs first? I'll vote any of Beyond_Birthday, PeregrineV, or Senjai.
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Post Post #221 (ISO) » Tue May 01, 2012 3:52 pm

Post by Benmage »

Tired and drained, the rest of my catchup will have to wait... my apologies.
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Post Post #222 (ISO) » Wed May 02, 2012 5:38 am

Post by Slandaar »

The points were basiclly he voted himself and that he made some joke about winning an election both derpy not scummy.

There is no way scum PV tries to compare pms unless everyone in the hood is scum which is just stupid.
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Post Post #223 (ISO) » Wed May 02, 2012 5:48 am

Post by ChaosOmega »

Slandaar wrote:There is no way scum PV tries to compare pms unless everyone in the hood is scum which is just stupid.

What if he got a copy of the town version of the PM? He does it to look like he's breaking the game to appear town, on the off chance that quoting is allowed, he's able to give the correct word if it's asked back at him.
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Post Post #224 (ISO) » Wed May 02, 2012 5:53 am

Post by PeregrineV »

@Elias- Time is acting exactly the same as he normally does. He's been town before, but I already said I wouldn't put it past him to act the same as scum. I think one of Chaos or Ben is probably scum, so I am watching how they both act, and how the others act and react to them.

@DLG- Just so I follow your logic.
Player A says Player B is scum and Player C is town.
Player B says Player A is scum and Player C is town
Player C says Player A or Player B is scum.
DLG says Player C is scum?
Nice. So I can count on you being partners with Player A or B.

@Code_X- Still watching for now. I have more speculation later but am still measuring reactions.

@Chaos & Everyone else who doesn't like my numbers- Feel free to give you own opinions. Be sure to include probabilities, or some form of quantitative measurement, since scummier than X doesn't tell us how scummy.
If you have more time than me, feel free to search past mini normal games for 3-person neighborhoods. When you find 10 of them, then give us a breakdown of the player makeup.

The only reason I tried something like that was because
A. this is not a theme, so most likely there are no fake claims provided.
B. is doesn't work in thread, because everyone's answer would be based on the VT role provided. In the QT everyone has a "neighbor" role, where the most likely probable difference is between a scum neighbor role and town neighbor role.
C. DV already pointed out I was requesting someone to break the rules, so I'll not go into more details on it. Instead, you get to here the results of what went on in there.
I will have
Limited Access
on weekends.

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