The Mass Effect thread

[esuriospiritus]

Get the previous two first.

[Umbrage]

It goes a bit overboard to suggest that Mass Effect has no fans just because

you've

given up on the franchise.

PS: finally got around to downloading the ME3 soundtrack and now I'm itching to do an insanity playthrough. But I really don't want to play 3 until the DLC is out...

decisions, decisions >_<

Not really. Right now the fanbase is divided into those like me who've told BW where to go, those who are too in love with BW to acknowledge they did anything wrong, and those who are still hoping for the indoctrination theory to become true.

[Hiraki]

Okay, I'm coming in here for the first time on page 93 because I've got a Mass Effect related question. Soon, I will be ordering a new computer that has bundled with it a copy of Mass Effect 3. For years I've wanted to play the Mass Effect games, but I've never had the money/willpower/computer to do it. Now that I'll have ME3 soon, should I just go ahead and play it, or should I really wait to get the previous two games first?

Erm.

It depends on your want of story.

It's kind of like watching Star Wars Episode 6(Note, not three because three has barely anything to do with the last two in terms of developing plot) but not watching Star Wars Episodes 4 or 5. You'll understand the plot, but you'll have to fill yourself in by filling some holes.

In addition, there are some holes you will just won't be able to fill.

If you're just playing it for the action/multiplayer then jump aboard.

those who are too in love with BW to acknowledge they did anything wrong, and those who are still hoping for the indoctrination theory to become true.

Did you watch the video though?

I admit he goes a bit far in trusting Bioware, but there are some points that are irrefutable, especially new points like the dead bodies everywhere and what they appear to be.

[Umbrage]

I don't doubt that at some point during development the indoctrination thing was true. But BW fucked it up.

[esuriospiritus]

It goes a bit overboard to suggest that Mass Effect has no fans just because

you've

given up on the franchise.

PS: finally got around to downloading the ME3 soundtrack and now I'm itching to do an insanity playthrough. But I really don't want to play 3 until the DLC is out...

decisions, decisions >_<

Not really. Right now the fanbase is divided into those like me who've told BW where to go, those who are too in love with BW to acknowledge they did anything wrong, and those who are still hoping for the indoctrination theory to become true.

woah, that sweeping generalization was so large I felt the 'woosh' all the way over here! come on now, you're a mafia player. You're not supposed to make these kind of logical fallacies.

personally I'm not going to shit all over 99.9% of a video game series I love because the last .1% isn't perfect; frankly I think it's quite stupid that other people do that but at least you don't see me trying to pretend that your opinion doesn't exist, because that would be

rude and disrespectful

kind of like you're being right now to anyone who doesn't enter this thread just to bitch and moan

HMMMMM

[Umbrage]

If there was no bitching and moaning in this thread it would die.

[esuriospiritus]

completely ignore evidence within the last 24 hours to the contrary



besides, who cares if it dies? It's a thread on a message board, it can be necroed when/if it's relevant again

seriously, why don't you go bitch on the bioware social board or something, there are plenty of other people like you who have nothing better to do than endlessly complain about a game they didn't even fucking

buy

or get a hobby or something ffs

[Bub Bidderskins]

Okay, I'm coming in here for the first time on page 93 because I've got a Mass Effect related question. Soon, I will be ordering a new computer that has bundled with it a copy of Mass Effect 3. For years I've wanted to play the Mass Effect games, but I've never had the money/willpower/computer to do it. Now that I'll have ME3 soon, should I just go ahead and play it, or should I really wait to get the previous two games first?

Erm.

It depends on your want of story.

It's kind of like watching Star Wars Episode 6(Note, not three because three has barely anything to do with the last two in terms of developing plot) but not watching Star Wars Episodes 4 or 5. You'll understand the plot, but you'll have to fill yourself in by filling some holes.

In addition, there are some holes you will just won't be able to fill.

If you're just playing it for the action/multiplayer then jump aboard.

Well, I would be playing for the story. I play RPGs for their story. If I want action I can go play an FPS.

[Hiraki]

I don't doubt that at some point during development the indoctrination thing was true. But BW fucked it up.

How so, may I ask?

Do you mean their post-game execution?

I mean, it wasn't the best way to execute it, but the video actually addresses this, if you've watched it.

Well, I would be playing for the story. I play RPGs for their story. If I want action I can go play an FPS.

Yeah, you should probably wait for Mass Effect 1 and 2 then, if not only 2.

Pretty sure you can get them pretty cheap too.

In addition, I

believe

you could just play the first two on the 360 and then transfer the save file to your PC. It's complicated though, so I've heard.

[Ankamius]

There was a post somewhere explaining why the indoctrination theory is completely and utterly wrong, but I can't seem to find it. I'll look and link it when I come across it again.

EDIT: I can't seem to find it anymore. There were a few points, but the only one I can remember offhand is that indoctrination simply doesn't work that way. The only way out of indoctrination is killing yourself, and indoctrination means you're actively trying to help the reapers.

[Bub Bidderskins]

Well, I would be playing for the story. I play RPGs for their story. If I want action I can go play an FPS.

Yeah, you should probably wait for Mass Effect 1 and 2 then, if not only 2.

Pretty sure you can get them pretty cheap too.

In addition, I

believe

you could just play the first two on the 360 and then transfer the save file to your PC. It's complicated though, so I've heard.

Well, I'd buy the first two for the PC. I've looked them up on amazon and they're pretty cheap, but there are several user reviews talking about how the DRM is terrible. Is it an issue with the PC version of the game? If it is, is there some way to get around it?

[Hiraki]

Well, I would be playing for the story. I play RPGs for their story. If I want action I can go play an FPS.

Yeah, you should probably wait for Mass Effect 1 and 2 then, if not only 2.

Pretty sure you can get them pretty cheap too.

In addition, I

believe

you could just play the first two on the 360 and then transfer the save file to your PC. It's complicated though, so I've heard.

Well, I'd buy the first two for the PC. I've looked them up on amazon and they're pretty cheap, but there are several user reviews talking about how the DRM is terrible. Is it an issue with the PC version of the game? If it is, is there some way to get around it?

Haven't heard of anything bad. I haven't played the PC Version myself, but that's my info.

EDIT: I can't seem to find it anymore. There were a few points, but the only one I can remember offhand is that indoctrination simply doesn't work that way. The only way out of indoctrination is killing yourself, and indoctrination means you're actively trying to help the reapers.

The whole point of ME3 was that it was an attempt by the Reapers to indoctrinate Shepard. They fail until the end. In the end(as in the actual ending) you choose if he got indoctrinated by your choice with the Star Child.

EDIT: The video also gives conclusive evidence for the Indoctrination Theory which TIM and Anderson's conversation. More specifically, the shot. I actually hadn't heard of that idea or thought about Shepard's wound.

[Ankamius]

There is no evidence that it's possible to break indoctrination without killing yourself. It's a complete slap in the face that a powerful asari matriarch can be broken so easily, yet a human can simply break out of it. Even if it is possible, the fact that it's only revealed for a split second at the end of the game is mind bogglingly stupid. The child in Shepard's dreams is more likely the icon of Shepard's guilt over leaving Earth to burn.

The article went into the shot. I just haven't been able to find it.

EDIT: Found it. http://iamrodyle.wordpress.com/2012/03/ ... y-passion/

[Umbrage]

There was a post somewhere explaining why the indoctrination theory is completely and utterly wrong, but I can't seem to find it. I'll look and link it when I come across it again.

EDIT: I can't seem to find it anymore. There were a few points, but the only one I can remember offhand is that indoctrination simply doesn't work that way. The only way out of indoctrination is killing yourself, and indoctrination means you're actively trying to help the reapers.

Eh, not really true. Indoctrination isn't an on/off switch. Some subjects like Kenson have their mind intact, but their values changed so that they see working with the Reapers as the best course of action. Others like Benezia want to break free but are actively being controlled. I guess it depends on how strong the hold is, remember that Saren had most of his free will at the start, but Sovereign changed him after Virmire and he became a puppet.

BW's been inconsistent on how it actually works, but it's definitely a slippery slope. Benezia made that first choice of travelling with Saren and trying to help him, and that crack was all Sovereign needed to get inside her head. The thing about indoctrination is that by the time you realize it's happening to you, it's too late to stop it. Shepard hasn't compromised on his war against the Reapers (until the ending obv) so he might have a chance. He knows about indoctrination and is thus mentally prepared for it.

And remember, Shepard's mind isn't totally human.

[Umbrage]

Well, I'd buy the first two for the PC. I've looked them up on amazon and they're pretty cheap, but there are several user reviews talking about how the DRM is terrible. Is it an issue with the PC version of the game? If it is, is there some way to get around it?

STEAM

[Hiraki]

There is no evidence that it's possible to break indoctrination without killing yourself. It's a complete slap in the face that a powerful asari matriarch can be broken so easily, yet a human can simply break out of it. Even if it is possible, the fact that it's only revealed for a split second at the end of the game is mind bogglingly stupid. The child in Shepard's dreams is more likely the icon of Shepard's guilt over leaving Earth to burn.

The article went into the shot. I just haven't been able to find it.

EDIT: Found it. http://iamrodyle.wordpress.com/2012/03/ ... y-passion/

The Reapers made a Human Reaper not an Asari Reaper for a reason.

Quite unimpressed with the article and it's lack of knowledge of the series/bad interpretations.

Indoctrination doesn’t cause lucid daydreams where you have imaginary conversations with God-like deities. Saren, Benezia, TIM, that Scientist from Arrival whose name I forget. None of them had conversations with imaginary people. Indoctrination doesn’t trick people into doing the opposite of what they want, it makes them believe in something new.

Where's he getting this information from? And just because they believe in something new, doesn't make it the opposite. Take for example TIM. His entire objective in ME2 was destroying the Reapers. By controlling them, he's effectively wanting them to be able to survive for his own personal use.

If Shepard was indoctrinated he would not have been trying to stop the Reapers, only to accidentally grab the ten thousand volt electric cables that turn him into a husk.

His new idea thing? This is it. He was told by Starchild that this would allow him to control the Reapers. This actually gives the IT more proof. Why the fuck would Shepard do something he just shot TIM two seconds ago for? AFAIK, there's no other option that TIM gives for the Reapers as well(I mean, he's been on it for the

entire

game) TIM was indoctrinated. So, why would an un-indoctrinated Shepard even think about the idea that an Indoctrinated mind gave?

Some say that Shepard was indoctrinated because he was injured while near a Reaper. But take a look at Saren and Benezia, they were indoctrinated because they lived inside a goddamn Reaper and even then they were able to shake off the effects while near death. It is the opposite of what allegedly happens to Shepard.

The video interjects this that the Reapers were trying to indoctrinate him while on Earth. There's more about Starkid and the Reaperwubs on it too. But that's sort off-topic--it just interjects the reasoning that the Reapers have to be in very close proximity to indoctrinate. In addition, Shepard isn't fully indoctrinated. That's the entire point of the Indoctrination Theory. It's a choice and you're the controller. If you're indoctrinated, you "control" or "synthesis. If you're not, you destroy.

Yes it was. It was planned and then cut. Just like the Boss Fight with the Illusive Man was planned and then cut, and how the Dark Energy Ending was planned and then cut. There were massive rewrites and staff changes over the past 5 years. Remnants may have been left behind, but that is only because it was cut from the game.

This is completely false. The Dark Energy Ending was changed because it was leaked. Not because it was planned and cut. It's like if at the end of Harry Potter, Harry Potter's actual nemesis isn't even a wizard but Hitler. That'd just be stupid. Mass Effect 3 isn't stupid.

No. Saren wanted to not be a husk. He thought the fight was hopeless and the only way to stay in control of himself was to do exactly what the Reapers wanted. Not a terribly good plan if you think about it.

This is theorizing. We don't know Saren's last intentions--if they were his purely or his with Reaper help or just the Reapers. In the end, Saren's words demonstrated that he wanted to be a husk. If you use A's original argument, if Saren was hopeless then he'd want to do what the Reapers wanted to survive. So, even if it wasn't in his best benefit or in his best idea, it'd be in the Reaper's best idea to try and morph the two.

Shepard has nightmares about a small child. He is indoctrinated!

Or the writers were using a common cliche by having a child dying represent the loss of innocence and Shepard’s dreams were to show his guilt over leaving Earth.

The video expresses this clearly. The best part about this, which surprisingly the narrator labels as plausible, is all the signs by the child.

The pistol has infinite ammo is a sign of indoctrination.

It was most likely to ensure that no one ran out of ammo before Marauder Shields killed Shepard, and so you could shoot TIM, and shoot the tube in the Red Ending.

Why not just take the pistol out then? Make no Husks or Marauder Shield? Make TIM only able to shoot himself? And if you don't want to get rid of that, why not just have ammo clips around the battleground and disallow shooting after you go into the portal? This doesn't add up.

Anderson got to the console before you

Shepard was limping so slowly that my dead Grandmother could have beat him in a race to that console.

But it was a one-way street. How did Anderson get there secretly? He was just about in the same place Shepard was.

Isn't that odd? Anderson in the same place, nowhere in sight, and having the same wounds as Shepard after the TIM talk/showdown?

Shepard’s wounds are inconsistent during the climax on the Citadel.

Yes, they are inconsistent. Also, your fish are two dimensional, the war casualties look like they were killed by a steam roller, and alliance solders are 2D sprites that strafe while running like they were trained by hours of playing Goldeneye. BIOWARE CUT CORNERS!

Shepard is vital to the plot. The soldiers are not. Nor are the strafers. Shepard? Yeah, he's just a

little

bit more imporant.

Bioware could never have made a bad ending

Shit like this happens all the time. Especially when the people up top surround themselves with yes-men and try to get creative and edgy. Just look at the Edsel. Somebody actually thought people would want to drive a car that had a giant metal vagina for a grill.

This is true.

However.

No one could make an ending this bad intentionally.

I'm pretty sure Bioware got money for the game just so people could see the ending.

It's flawed. If the author doesn't realize this, then something is wrong with this article.

But the rest was so good

Yes it was. The best parts were those that stayed true to the previous games. Tali and Legion, Mordin and Wrex. They were great because they didn’t change who they were. They didn’t try to be edgy and creative.

I'm pretty sure the Suicide Mission(which I'm pretty sure was everyone's favorite part of ME2 was pretty fucking edgy and creative, even if it wasn't the most diverse/random.

LIKELY EXPLANATION: This dialogue exists because the staff did not want to render the Quarian faces in-game and needed an excuse to put the masks on them. The Tali photo was just another last minute screw-up that Hudson thought was a good idea.

Fair.

LIKELY EXPLANATION: The Red Ending was Renegade because it meant you committed genocide by wiping out the Geth in order to save yourself. The Blue Ending was Paragon because it meant that you sacrificed yourself in order to end the cycle and prevent any further deaths. Killing the Geth along with the reapers is just a cheap way to make the choice hard. Otherwise everyone would have just ran over there instantly.

So the Green ending was that one that was in the middle...is that neutral because no one dies? Pretty sure if there's organic bias, there's going to be synthetic bias. You only have to wonder, who's going to be the one killing who...

Hmm....

The Indoctrination movie claims that the Illusive Man and Anderson never actually existed on the Citadel, they were representations in Shepard’s mind. It goes on to state that the good ending is the one where Shepard kills all the Reapers, therefore breaking the Indoctrination. False. The only way out for Saren was a bullet in the brain. That means the good ending is if you left the Illusive Man shoot you. Because the Illusive Man is you. It means you killed yourself rather than become indoctrinated. Jumping into the Red Ending just means you fell for another Reaper choice. After all, why would they let a feeble mostly-dead Shepard go near a magic push to kill all Reapers button in the first place.

Realistic qualities, and again completely false.

If I have a button to push a lever down and the lever can only go down if I press that button, what happens when I lose the button? I don't think that lever is going down anytime soon. Indoctrination is control. It's not espionage/propoganda. It's control. Saren was being controlled. He got out of the control and shot himself so he'd further resist this control. TIM does the same thing.

It actually makes things worse. Anderson’s dialog becomes meaningless and the Illusive Man’s whereabouts are unknown. Now not only do you not know what happened after the game ends, but you don’t even know what happens during the game.

No, it's not useless because it displays what went on in Shepard's mind. Anderson and TIM are not real on the Citadel if the Indoctrination Theory is correct. TIM can hide wherever he wants. It doesn't really matter since the main threat is the Reapers during the Earth mission. After everyone is done with that, then maybe they'll give two shits about TIM and his base, which by the way was infiltrated so you know. There's no point in that cookie anymore.

Besides. What ending do you get with Mass Effect 3? You get nothing. You get a little snippet that everyone is on some weird-ass planet and is living happily--oh wait, you don't actually know that due to Turian and Quarian eating habits. You also don't even know if there's some Thrasher Mare that comes out of nowhere either. You don't know anything at the end of Mass Effect 3 with any ending. Even with the Destroy ending, you just see one breath. That one breath could be Shepard's last.

It literally invalidates the entire game series from the start. If this was nothing more than a battle of the minds, then what the ending tells us is that the whole, entire thing is utterly, completely pointless.

Er, no? You still played a game right? The nightmares were attempts at Indoctrination. The finale was the grand slam that the Reapers had at Indoctrination. Harby "apparently" hit Shepard with his laser beam which already blew up tanks. Wonder why he decided to let him randomly live.

If someone is indoctrinated, they aren’t operating under their own free will. Their minds are compromised. You might make a heroic choice by sacrificing yourself…but this game has always been about stark choices and finding a third way. That was removed , if the Indoctrination theory was right. You either give into the indoctrination or fight it.

It's always been Paragon and Renegade, what are you talking about? There might be a third option, but it usually just gives a less positive turn toward Paragon/Renegade(Main example is the final choice in ME1 about the Council)

It invalidates the entire spirit of what Shepard stood for. Right or wrong, good or bad, at the end this was supposed be a story about how one person could actually change the universe , for better or for worse, for inspiration or ruthless survival. To … corrupt it by having him fall to the very thing he had been battling against all along — the loss of what makes us alive, our free will — is to spit on everything we’ve done up to this point.

Exactly. Which is why you shouldn't pick the ending that the two indoctrinated guys picked.

To note, I see the arguments already coming that the Indoctrination Theory only leaves one good ending--that's true. I'm a bit disappointed myself that there is only one. However, that was what you were going up to the Crucible to do yourself.

So let's say, and A even states that if this happened everyone would be happy, you went up to the Crucible, actually had a Boss Fight with TIM, beat him and put on the console to fire. Where's the third option? The only second option I can see would be not to fire it, but what's the fucking point of that? It's like saying, "We have the Death Star, but let's save it for some other time(which by the way, there is no other time) and blast this planet to pieces with our Star Destroyers"

WRONG. That's stupid.

If the Indoctrination theory is right, I’ve wasted my money. And every single person who thinks it’s an appropriate ending needs to go see a psychologist, because it implies it’s more important that something be consistent than have meaning.”

Ouch. That's a bit harsh. Mathematics does work that way, and science--isn't Psychology a science?

Wait. Am I getting at something here?

Anyway.

What I feel that most anti-IT people are completely missing are the following.

1) Explain the point of Shepard's eyes changing in the other two endings but not in Destroy. The whole "lol he's looking at something blue/red" doesn't work because Shepard was looking at fire and that didn't make his eyes red. That shouldn't either.

2) Explain Anderson getting on the Crucible.

3) Explain the Child's interactions with Shepard, and Shepard only, in the first mission(including the signs)

4) Explain the oddness of Starchild's voice.

5) Explain why the rumbles and whisperings in Shepard's nightmare return in the TIM/Anderson conversation.

6) Explain why in the last nightmare, Shepard hugging the child appears in the fire, rather than just the child.

[Ankamius]

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_UJUlD8nmQ I don't see what you're talking about here. From what I can tell, it changes when her body completely starts to disintegrate, and it looks the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7OdYt0rqZQ His eyes look normal until the rest of his body is basically disintegrated. I don't see the validity here.

2. This is a valid point, one to add to the huge list of plot inconsistencies that permeates the last section of the game.

3. The first mission is a clusterfuck as it is, and there's literally a fuckton of things wrong with it. There's no proof that no one else can tell what the child is. There's no proof for either in the first section where the child's playing. You can easily explain off the second bit. Anderson doesn't necessarily have to not hear the boy in the vent; he could easily have just assumed it was more damage from the Reapers. I concede that the boy getting away without making any noise makes no fucking sense, but this is offset by the fact that in the final scene with him, the shuttle he goes on literally sits there for several seconds and WAITS for him to get on. If the boy does not exist, then the shuttle sits there for several seconds with the door open for no reason before taking off.

4. I don't understand what you're talking about here.

5. The reapers have the ability to alter your minds to bend your will; what's so improbable about them being able to try to break you with the things that haunt you? This entire section being an indoctrination battle makes sense, but it doesn't mean the entire ending sequence is indoctrination. This could be an indoctrination battle with Anderson and TIM in the flesh, and the Crucible child could be real.

6. I don't see the relevance. Shepard is stressed the fuck out (Joker alludes to this). He states multiple times that the hardest thing he's ever done was to leave Earth to save it. It weighs heavily on his conscience, and the stress of being a key figurehead to stopping the reapers only makes it worse. Earth is being destroyed while he's off gathering forces to take it back, and he's having doubts about his ability to overall do it. He's thinking that he might've been better off staying on Earth and fighting them there in the first place.

[esuriospiritus]

Anderson got to the console before you

Shepard was limping so slowly that my dead Grandmother could have beat him in a race to that console.

I lol'd.

As far as whether or not the indoctrination theory is true or not, I've decided that I'm just gonna try to not think about the endings too hard until the DLC comes out. There's some pretty compelling evidence going either way but there's not much point intellectually wanking over 'what ifs' if bioware is going to give us ending DLC in a few months anyway. It's simply not under our control.

[Ankamius]

Pretty sure Bioware has confirmed that the indoctrination theory is false, so this entire debate is really pointless.

[Hiraki]

1) Around :50ish seconds, Shepard's eyes are completely blue. This video isn't the best example because this Shepard's eyes are blue anyway.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1679638&page=44

This basically explains it and shows pictures.

2. This is a valid point, one to add to the huge list of plot inconsistencies that permeates the last section of the game.

Bioware isn't stupid. This doesn't make any sense. It's not rushed--it's fucking stupid.

There's no proof that no one else can tell what the child is.

The video addresses this. The child randomly disappears in an air duct.

And the Reaperwub, as I've defined it, just randomly happened there and in the TIM/Anderson conversation? No. That can't be true.

Anderson doesn't necessarily have to not hear the boy in the vent; he could easily have just assumed it was more damage from the Reapers.

True. Shepard does though. He's right next to him. Even if it wasn't an airduct--let's say it was a hallway--there'd be something that would show him leaving.

but this is offset by the fact that in the final scene with him, the shuttle he goes on literally sits there for several seconds and WAITS for him to get on. If the boy does not exist, then the shuttle sits there for several seconds with the door open for no reason before taking off.

I believe, don't quote me--haven't seen this part in awhile in detail, that there was someone else getting on.

You did miss one curious part that's risen up in the last few weeks I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8vra2WF2oY

Watch at around 8:40ish. There are signs(like physical "CAUTION" and "WARNING") signs that accompany every presence of the child on Earth.

That's not a coincidence. I won't believe it.

4. I don't understand what you're talking about here.

Starchild's voice.

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/ ... 11400930/1

It's Child+MaleShep+FemShep. There's no reason for that.

Except if Shepard was using things from his own mind.

5. The reapers have the ability to alter your minds to bend your will; what's so improbable about them being able to try to break you with the things that haunt you? This entire section being an indoctrination battle makes sense, but it doesn't mean the entire ending sequence is indoctrination. This could be an indoctrination battle with Anderson and TIM in the flesh, and the Crucible child could be real.

If the entire section is an indoctrination battle, then why would Anderson be able to contact Shepard outside of the room? I mean, this kind of does make sense but you still have a load of odd stuff to go through with Starchild.

6. I don't see the relevance. Shepard is stressed the fuck out (Joker alludes to this). He states multiple times that the hardest thing he's ever done was to leave Earth to save it. It weighs heavily on his conscience, and the stress of being a key figurehead to stopping the reapers only makes it worse. Earth is being destroyed while he's off gathering forces to take it back, and he's having doubts about his ability to overall do it. He's thinking that he might've been better off staying on Earth and fighting them there in the first place.

Err, you kind of missed the point. It'd be better if you actually addressed the video at this point. I'll give you time markings in a moment. 45 minutes on kind of helps. It even points out the Art Book to kind of show that he wasn't part of the original plan.

Pretty sure Bioware has confirmed that the indoctrination theory is false, so this entire debate is really pointless.

Where?

I mean.

I don't get how you can say that if X member of the team(I really can't remember her name ever, but she basically gave everything) that in the Ending DLC, Shepard can re-associate with his former members.

Destroy is the only ending that shows Shepard alive. Coincidence?

I think not.

EDIT: I can't remember where and I kind of don't want to look, but someone said something to the effect that the Child going slow in the Shuttle didn't really matter/no one saw him and something with lift-off shows that they did see him.

False, I looked at it again. There were ground forces near the shuttle at the same time. Pretty sure they got on right after Child did.

[Ankamius]

1) Around :50ish seconds, Shepard's eyes are completely blue. This video isn't the best example because this Shepard's eyes are blue anyway.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1679638&page=44

This basically explains it and shows pictures.

The eyes meaning indoctrination really makes no sense whatsoever. If the eyes changing means indoctrination, then the reapers are beyond idiots. They killed the one person who foiled their plot to take over the galaxy through the Citadel (Battle of the Citadel) a month after, then they decide to revive him? Then they help him destroy a reaper they're building? Every time the reapers speak to Shepard, they keep stating that no matter what he does, it will be pointless. It simply makes no sense why the Reapers would keep stating to him that everything he does is pointless, yet help him so much throughout the second game.

If anything, the eyes mean that the person in question has been directly exposed to reaper tech. The catalyst claims that the reapers are part of it. It's not out of the question for that link to be there.

2. This is a valid point, one to add to the huge list of plot inconsistencies that permeates the last section of the game.

Bioware isn't stupid. This doesn't make any sense. It's not rushed--it's fucking stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qa81mq3744
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZytHg7THYPk

A lot of shit in the last several hours of the game just straight up don't make sense. I can't take something like that seriously when there's so many similar plotholes.

There's no proof that no one else can tell what the child is.

The video addresses this. The child randomly disappears in an air duct.

And the Reaperwub, as I've defined it, just randomly happened there and in the TIM/Anderson conversation? No. That can't be true.

There's problems with everything in the prologue. There's multiple instances where people do incredibly unrealistic things or completely ignore current known laws of physics. The two videos I linked above, the first one in that series explains it far better than I ever could. I concede this point, but I maintain that there's really no way to tell if that's what they had in mind or not with how completely fucked up this entire section of the story is. This isn't a very strong argument, but I really have trouble seeing how these little details are confirming IT when so many other (bigger) things are overlooked completely.

Anderson doesn't necessarily have to not hear the boy in the vent; he could easily have just assumed it was more damage from the Reapers.

True. Shepard does though. He's right next to him. Even if it wasn't an airduct--let's say it was a hallway--there'd be something that would show him leaving.

Why does there HAVE to be something showing him leaving? I understand why it's relevant in the current situation, but I don't see how it's relevant by itself.

but this is offset by the fact that in the final scene with him, the shuttle he goes on literally sits there for several seconds and WAITS for him to get on. If the boy does not exist, then the shuttle sits there for several seconds with the door open for no reason before taking off.

I believe, don't quote me--haven't seen this part in awhile in detail, that there was someone else getting on.

You did miss one curious part that's risen up in the last few weeks I think.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8vra2WF2oY

Watch at around 8:40ish. There are signs(like physical "CAUTION" and "WARNING") signs that accompany every presence of the child on Earth.

That's not a coincidence. I won't believe it.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I said.

The CAUTION and WARNING signs obviously do mean something. Does that mean he's indoctrinated? Not necessarily. They could just as easily be signalling that the boy means Earth as a whole and that the signs are a warning that Earth is going to die if Shepard fails in his quest.

4. I don't understand what you're talking about here.

Starchild's voice.

http://social.bioware.com/forums/forum/ ... 11400930/1

It's Child+MaleShep+FemShep. There's no reason for that.

Except if Shepard was using things from his own mind.

This would be completely irrefutable if it was only Child+MShep (for MShep) or Child+FShep (for FShep), but I'm not convinced since it has BOTH. If it comes from his (or her) mind, why would it have both?

5. The reapers have the ability to alter your minds to bend your will; what's so improbable about them being able to try to break you with the things that haunt you? This entire section being an indoctrination battle makes sense, but it doesn't mean the entire ending sequence is indoctrination. This could be an indoctrination battle with Anderson and TIM in the flesh, and the Crucible child could be real.

If the entire section is an indoctrination battle, then why would Anderson be able to contact Shepard outside of the room? I mean, this kind of does make sense but you still have a load of odd stuff to go through with Starchild.

I'm lost here. What I'm stating is that TIM is trying to get Shepard indoctrinated, but Anderson is not. I'm not understanding what the significance of Anderson being able to contact Shepard out of the room is. I did say that this being indoctrination does make sense, but there's problems with the entire section being in his head.

6. I don't see the relevance. Shepard is stressed the fuck out (Joker alludes to this). He states multiple times that the hardest thing he's ever done was to leave Earth to save it. It weighs heavily on his conscience, and the stress of being a key figurehead to stopping the reapers only makes it worse. Earth is being destroyed while he's off gathering forces to take it back, and he's having doubts about his ability to overall do it. He's thinking that he might've been better off staying on Earth and fighting them there in the first place.

Err, you kind of missed the point. It'd be better if you actually addressed the video at this point. I'll give you time markings in a moment. 45 minutes on kind of helps. It even points out the Art Book to kind of show that he wasn't part of the original plan.

From the video that you specified starting roughly at 45:00, a bit past that: All of these are somewhat paraphrased. I only watched the sequence regarding the boy and a little bit into the next one.

"The dream sequences have the same slow blue as from the laser to the end of the game": I don't know about you, but when I'm dreaming about things that distress me a lot, I tend to move incredibly slowly. The blur is incredibly weak as an argument. When you're injured and limping, you tend to go slow as well. The blur is incredibly weak as an argument.

"In the third dream, Shepard contently catches the kid and looks at him contently, then they burn. This means that if he embraces the kid, aka indoctrination, he will burn": Or, that could mean that if he tries to save the kid (AKA Earth) too early, then everything burns. This doesn't prove anything.

"But they're smiling as they're burning": This could easily mean that Shepard wants to give his all to attempt to save Earth, even though it might not be enough.
Regarding his starchild point: The reapers (and assumedly the catalyst) have the ability to delve into the mind. Shepard uses the boy as a symbol for Earth. Vigil states in ME1 that it was able to learn Shepard's language from listening in on their communication (or something of that sort). So obviously this type of thing exists in canon. If the catalyst is interested in talking to Shepard, I would think that it would be appropriate to select an image that Shepard can relate to. It has the added effect that Shepard wants to save the boy (AKA Earth), so it convinces Shepard to make the choice with the added benefit that what he has been fighting for all game is the one providing it. It's the same overall concept as in IT, but with different reasons.

"The caution sign argument": This goes well with my point about the dreams. It could easily just be an added hint that Shepard shouldn't try to save Earth too early.

"Voice argument": I admit the voice must have been done on purpose (now that I know that one goes through the left and the other in the right speaker), but I still don't see how this is evidence for indoctrination theory. You state that it come from his mind, and the other voice cannot be in his mind, since it doesn't exist in that timeline.

"Basic questions instead of complex questions": I heavily paraphrased this question, but I honestly don't understand the relevance. Shepard is heavily injured. Chances are he's not thinking straight. This isn't necessarily because it's in his mind, it could easily just be because the pain of his injuries are numbing him.

---

This isn't exactly relevant to the conversation at hand, but there's one other thing I'm really confused on:

TIM (indoctrinated part of your mind) kills himself, you're still being indoctrinated. I would have assumed that means you killed yourself.
You shoot TIM -> same deal, except breaking indoctrination.
TIM shoots Anderson -> That doesn't mean you're fully indoctrinated? You just killed off the sane part of your mind. What's keeping you from doing the Reaper's will?

Pretty sure Bioware has confirmed that the indoctrination theory is false, so this entire debate is really pointless.

Where?

I mean.

I don't get how you can say that if X member of the team(I really can't remember her name ever, but she basically gave everything) that in the Ending DLC, Shepard can re-associate with his former members.

I can't find where I got that, which shows how good I am at finding things. I stopped beliving in the Indoctrination Theory at some point before reading that article; I just can't find where anymore. I did believe it at first and thought (still do actually) that a good amount of thought was put into it. At this point, after thinking about it and seeing some other people's opinions on the other side, I agree that there's really not enough evidence that it's true.

Destroy is the only ending that shows Shepard alive. Coincidence?

I think not.

Huh? You either shoot something, electrocute yourself, or jump into a beam of light. It makes sense that the first one is the only one that shows you alive.

EDIT: I can't remember where and I kind of don't want to look, but someone said something to the effect that the Child going slow in the Shuttle didn't really matter/no one saw him and something with lift-off shows that they did see him.

False, I looked at it again. There were ground forces near the shuttle at the same time. Pretty sure they got on right after Child did.

I looked at the video before making that statement. The soldiers definitely did NOT get into the shuttle.

One last thing, fuck youtube. Seriously. My flash player crashed THREE FUCKING TIMES because of that documentary.

[Umbrage]

BW doesn't deserve fans of this calibre.

[UberNinja]

I'm so mad. I still haven't beaten the 3rd game. I am like halfway through but I keep forgetting to play.
I think I'm putting it off because I heard the ending was shit. Grrrr I gotta play it soon though.

We should totally have a Mass Effect mafia game.

[Umbrage]

We should totally have a Mass Effect mafia game.

Fuck off.

[UberNinja]

What?