Newbie 1248 (GAME OVER)

[Arinna]

This article does answer my questions regarding the RVS and is very informative, thank you. (I can say, however, that my previous distaste towards the RVS was because I had only seen people say things like "vote: so and so, because his avatar is green", which is neither reasonable, nor discussion-generating.)

On a further note, though I am aware that it is very unreliable at this point, I do have somewhat of a town read on Chronos. On the rest of the people, I am neutral as of yet. However..because I do not agree with Axxle's thoughts on creating a policy where lurkers are lynched, I will vote for him*.

VOTE: Axxle

* I do think that it is better to get the lurkers to be more active, or to get them to replace out, because although lurking does delay scumhunting, the lynches have to be decided very carefully, so that as much information may be deduced from the lynch as possible. Another point with this kind of a policy-lynch is that it would probably condition the scum to act a single way (that is, not to lurk) and then lynching the lurkers instead of looking more at who acts scummy might basically cost

all

the townies' lives.

[crabbyman66]

Hello, everyone. This is my first game on this site. I haven't played that many forum mafia games prior to this though, so I'm still very green.

1.) I'm GMT -4
2.) I'm not sure of the purpose of either the D1 questions or the RV strategy. Neither strategies have really added much in the games I have played in the past. The votes never really have much weight to them. I would be grateful if someone would be able to explain their significance.
3.) A haven't really thought about this before... . From my experience, lurkers have often just been cautious or townies that don't have anything to add to the conversation atm. I'm in favor of voting for lurkers to spur a bit more activity, but I don't think the lynch should happen unless other grounds for suspicion arise. Liars are in the same boat.

[crabbyman66]

Just saw that article about Day 1. Maybe that will clear up the questions I have on it.

[Axxle]

@Arinna: with all due respect the policy worked incredibly well my first game here (he literally posted four times), resulting in a perfect town win. To be fair it wasn't just because he was lurking, the few times he did talk he seemed to test the waters and then rehash everyone's opinions as his own. And we were in a rush to lynch someone that we all agreed on. Hmm... well, I guess I don't have a lot of evidence to back that argument. I'll revise to: Lurking is a scumtell for me, be active and give us more information. Even if you are new, you can still try to contribute. Don't be afraid to make mistakes since we can learn from them.

I wish I had that article when I started a Mafia game in another forum entirely. It seems that RVS is just as damaging to us as I thought. I'll exercise my right to not be part of it UNVOTE:

See you all tomorrow, probably.

[Mortontfrh]

1- What timezone are you in?

GMT/UTC - 7h

2- What do you think about the RVS? Or about votes in general? (About how much they "weigh" in your mind, etc.)

RVS is just a stepping stone to higher grounds. I prefer it more than RQS just because I find that we are able to transition out of RVS a lot quicker than RQS, especially in newbie games where people get way to caught up in discussing theory. I find that voting, in general is one of our strongest tools. Questioning a players motives is always good, but you can excite a much stronger reaction through voting than questioning would ever get you.

3- Since these issues tend to be debated a lot, what are your views on "lynch all liars" and "lynch all lurkers"?

Lynch all lurkers is almost always bad, especially in newbie games. The problem with something like Lynch all Lurkers, is that people assume it to mean "Lynch all inactives" when lurking and inactivity aren't even close to the same thing. Lurker is generally scummy, that is to say someone who is actively reading the thread but not providing content. Being inactive is completely null.

Lynch all liars is a completely different can of worms, and I feel like it's to much of a case by base situation to follow a mindset like LaL. Is it generally anti-town to lie? Sure, but it isn't always.

Vote: LordChronos

for being the other SE.

Side note:

Finally, just because somebody disagrees with you does not make them scum. Even if you think they are doing something stupid. Instead of looking for who

Just noting the missing information from your IC wall Seacore.

[Seacore]

Oh, don't know what happened there. Let me try and remember what I was going to say...

Probably something along the lines of

Instead of looking for who is doing things differently to you, look for why people are doing the things they are doing, motivations are more telling than actions

.

Maybe something like that. Not sure, I was in a totally different headspace when I sat and wrote my IC wall. That being said, that line is in blue, which means I mean it.

In other news, I like this second SE, he's represented my feelings on the two non-timezone questions very well, probably better than I did.

The only thing I'd probably comment on is that this is a newbie game and one with a 3 week Day. So RQS, particularly when it comes to a few staples of game theory, is okay for right now. We've got time to help the beginners. The biggest learning curve is not how to play mafia but how to play mafia at mafiascum.net. So this kind of discussion is a little helpful for this game and super helpful for their careers.

In other news, I've decided to

Vote LordChronos

This is not an RVS vote. Its mostly gut, but there is something in the tone of his post that feels... misdirecting. Like he's trying to take truths of the game and turn them slightly.

[wombat99]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.



And.... errr.... on a totally unrelated note, I appreciate your guidance during this game, Seacore!

[Seacore]

Is skimming and/or being obtuse scummy? Why?

[AGar]

Votecount 1.01

crabbyman66

(0) -

Axxle

(1) - Arinna

wombat99

(0) -

Arinna

(1) - LordChronos

Paschendale

(0) -

Hyperion

(0) -

LordChronos

(2) - Mortontfrh, Seacore

Mortontfrh

(0) -

Seacore

(1) - wombat99

Not Voting

(4) - crabbyman66, Axxle, Paschendale, Hyperion,

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

LordChronos

is the current wagon leader(s), at

L-3

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-06-23 07:00:00)

Due to an oversight, Paschendale is being replaced since he is a newbie starting into two games at once. I will have his replacement in the next few minutes, please hold.

[AGar]

Balnazzar "replaces" Paschendale.

[Hyperion]

On a further note, though I am aware that it is very unreliable at this point, I do have somewhat of a town read on Chronos. On the rest of the people, I am neutral as of yet. However..because I do not agree with Axxle's thoughts on creating a policy where lurkers are lynched, I will vote for him*.

VOTE: Axxle

* I do think that it is better to get the lurkers to be more active, or to get them to replace out, because although lurking does delay scumhunting, the lynches have to be decided very carefully, so that as much information may be deduced from the lynch as possible. Another point with this kind of a policy-lynch is that it would probably condition the scum to act a single way (that is, not to lurk) and then lynching the lurkers instead of looking more at who acts scummy might basically cost

all

the townies' lives.

So you don't necessarily think he is scum (you have a neutral read on him) but you want to vote for him anyways? Just because he does not agree wth you? And you have a town read on Chronos after he posts twice, both being about theory and game mechanics. Can you say scumbudies? VOTE: Arinna

[wombat99]

Is skimming and/or being obtuse scummy? Why?

Anti-town at best. intentionally ignoring or glossing over something might be scummy.

[LordChronos]

Heading out to skate with friends now, will post when I get back.

[Axxle]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.

I don't like that LC said "There is

no such thing

as the RVS." That

is

a lie, one that can be confusing to new players. If he said something like "The Random Voting Stage is..." and then proceeded to the rest of that post that would be better. It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it

is

misleading. I don't think LordChronos meant anything bad by it, but VOTE: wombat for attacking someone for being "obtuse" while himself not trying to understand.

Also just fyi:

for voting you can use the

[vot

e][/vote] tags instead of bold.

(Do you mind if I use blue for things like this, Seacore?)

[Hyperion]

^ OK you kinda lost me with that last post Axxle, could you possibly rephrase the sentence about misleading please?

[Axxle]

^ OK you kinda lost me with that last post Axxle, could you possibly rephrase the sentence about misleading please?

BAHAHAHAHAHA! That was a joke right?

[Axxle]

If not: I assume you mean this sentence? "It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it is misleading" What I mean is: Seacore thought LordChronos was being misleading and attacked him for it. Wombat felt like Seacore wasn't understanding something very simple in LordChronos's post and attacked him for it. I also think LordChronos wasn't being completely clear, and could very well see how someone could feel mislead by it. I think wombat should have been able to see that too, even if he wasn't confused himself.

[Hyperion]

OK that makes so much more sense now, I thought you were saying Seacore was being misleading and then attacked Wombat for attacking his comment because the comment was misleadoing. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Hyperion]

OK, so to generate discusion, how does everyone feel about Arinna's town read on Chronos and vote on Axxle from Post 25 (<--- I think I did that right, if not just look at post 25). I think it seems rather scummy, anyone else see any validity in her town read, do you think she could be scumbuddies with Chronos and trying to protect him early? Does anyone want to submit any thought at all?

[Axxle]

Ah, replace all references to wombat from he to she in my post. Failed to check info for that, sorry wombat.

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

[LordChronos]

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

It's too bad I didn't say anything you referenced me saying in this post. As an IC, please try to refrain from accusing other players based on things they didn't say.

That is patently false LC. You may think that an RVS isn't helpful, and I'd agree with you, but to say it doesn't exist as a concept is wrong. As an SE please try and be clear about when you're giving your opinion.

Also, it's a weekend , so let's not get worked up about some players not posting.

I think he's saying there's not an official RVStage with an ending time then suddenly mafia becomes serious.

Vote Seacore

for either skimming or being deliberately obtuse.

I don't like that LC said "There is

no such thing

as the RVS." That

is

a lie, one that can be confusing to new players. If he said something like "The Random Voting Stage is..." and then proceeded to the rest of that post that would be better. It was probably just a mistake made out of hatred for the RVS but don't attack someone for thinking it's misleading when it

is

misleading. I don't think LordChronos meant anything bad by it, but VOTE: wombat for attacking someone for being "obtuse" while himself not trying to understand.

Again, it's a shame I didn't say "There is

no such thing

as the RVS". I said, "There is no such thing as the random voting

stage

". Note the emphasis on stage. Funny how you are voting someone for attacking some for being obtuse while not trying to understand while simultaneous engaging in the exact same behavior.

Ah, replace all references to wombat from he to she in my post. Failed to check info for that, sorry wombat.

Arinna strikes me as one of those people with strong convictions fast and early, grabbing at every bit of evidence she can. And that's good. Especially at these early stages. I think she'll sound as convinced at every stage of the game, whether or not she is able to change those ideas of who's town or not remains to be seen.

Unusually strong defense of Arinna at this point in the game.

---

Seacore should know better than to totally misrepresent what someone else is saying as town. Axxle's attack on wombat is awful.

Unvote; Vote: Axxle

[Axxle]

What the heck man. It

is

called the random voting stage: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=RVS. No matter where you put the emphasis, it's still wrong.

Is it too strong of a defense of her? Maybe. I was just giving a gut read based on how she reminds me of other people I've played with on and off this forum.

[Axxle]

Also, I've never seen mafia give a town read on a partner right off the bat like that.

[LordChronos]

What the heck man. It

is

called the random voting stage: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=RVS. No matter where you put the emphasis, it's still wrong.

Is it too strong of a defense of her? Maybe. I was just giving a gut read based on how she reminds me of other people I've played with on and off this forum.

/facepalm

I'm saying that it isn't a well-defined "stage". There is no brightline of, "hey, we aren't in RVS now, stuff actually counts." It counts from the moment we start playing.

[Axxle]

And that's why I said it's confusing.