Mafia Behind the Maiden (Game over!)

[UberNinja]

That said, Oversoul is probtown. (Oh god need to go get food.)

But HATE. SO MUCH HATE. SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP.

what an obvscum post

[UberNinja]

holy shit tierce. post enough?

fake melodrama ftw, girl

[UberNinja]

why don't you spend a little more time raging about why someone is scum instead of raging about why you are town or why an obvtownie is stupid?

oh wait

[Tierce]

That said, Oversoul is probtown. (Oh god need to go get food.)

But HATE. SO MUCH HATE. SHUT. THE. FUCK. UP.

what an obvscum post

Considering you apparently have no fucking idea why I'm raging against Oversoul, go ahead and call me obvscum. I couldn't be obvtowning more if I tried.


Glork, I derped hard when I called out the number of roles I am looking for. There wasn't much point in hiding it from then on. :/ If they actually exist, I don't want the other two players to claim, but if they can neighborize/masonize, here I am, this is me, etc.


PEdit: Okay back to /ignore mode because I REALLY CAN'T DEAL WITH IT.

[UberNinja]

You are an angry person, Tierce.

And of course scum tries to "obvtown" (verb?) as much as or more than town does... so what do you expect me to reply to that?

[Tierce]

Maybe realize that I don't have to 'try' because this behavior comes naturally

because I'm town

? I mean, seriously, if you want to call me "too townie" just after you called me obvscum, by all means. (Hint: look at most of my finished town games, I

do

obvtown like crazy. And yes, I call myself obvtown as town, because the level of clarity in my alignment tends to be pretty ridiculous.)

Oversoul toes the line of game integrity in pretty much every game he's in and that drives me bananas. I get angry at that. (Oh no she's an angry person she's totes obvscum--hey dude meet Fate and SpyreX and you'll see what true anger is.) I've lynched town as town for this bullshit and NO REGRETS.

Just keep voting Toast. The rest is pretty much irrelevant tbqh.

[Glork]

Glork, I derped hard when I called out the number of roles I am looking for. There wasn't much point in hiding it from then on. :/ If they actually exist, I don't want the other two players to claim, but if they can neighborize/masonize, here I am, this is me, etc.

I can think of two other groups-of-three in the FE:PoR/FE:RD. Your identity may have been obvious to you, because you were a part of a specific group of three, but it wasn't going to be obvious to anybody else. Hell, in the Triangle Attack you listed in the wiki, one of the other triplets from Path of Radiance is

listed directly below Rolf/Boyd/Oscar

. As far as I'm concerned, you're

still

derping hard. Shape up.

[Glork]

Also, with "players looking for players" as a mechanic, there's a very good chance that the scums have one (or more) watcher/tracker abilities. If they use said abilities on you, you're outing even MORE townroles to the scums.

You know I heart you, but seriously, get your shit together.

[Glork]

Fucking fuck.

Oversoul, of course my stuff in Paranoia was engineered to look town. I was

scum

and the only place I was being transparent on was the scum QT, where I laid all my cards down and wasn't on strategilurk mode.

Maybe realize that I don't have to 'try' because this behavior comes naturally

because I'm town

?

Can you please reconcile these two quotes? Obivously you had success engineering townplay in Paranoia, as you survived and won.

How exactly do you expect us to discern "EngineeredTierceTown" from "GenuineTierceTown"?

[MaguaofIllusion]

Ok you people are insisting on making this thread 100 pages Day 1. I can tell. Dear god …

--

So I’ve done my complete read-through and posted my notes to our Hydra QT. I’ll give you highlights of what we agree on at this early stage.

We both agree that Gamma and Duplicity are pretty obv-Town. We also agree that Tierce doesn’t seem obv-Town when that’s supposedly her hallmark in how she plays the game.

And I cannot personally stress enough how stupid Tierce’s claim was. Congratulations that’s a Empking level move right there if you are Town.

But that aside Glork’s point about her ‘Town confusion’ on the Scum wincon is enough to give take her off our acceptable lynches at the moment.

UNVOTE: Tierce
VOTE: Spyrex

--

People this head thinks are good votes at this stage –

Spyrex

– he gets his own post after this one to keep things clear since people tend to give him the “I like SpySpy he’s totes Town” shield early on in games.

Magister Ludi

– 100% gut on my part. I’ve played with MagisterLudi Town before and this doesn’t come close to my expectations. And I think his reasoning for voting is pretty bad. Take Post 240 where he goes after Alchemist for “not sharing reasoning” despite turning over a new leaf. It doesn’t track given the new leaf Alchemist specifically claimed to turn over was not being clear at all … it had all together everything to do with him NOT spamming the thread like a moron.

Singersinger

– the play here has just been terrible. A large bunch of quotes for comment later then no comment with “I don’t like Mafia right now” comments? Calling us the most obvious scum along with Spyrex yet keeping a vote parked on Tammy? Later ‘forgetting’ how I’m scum (see Post 464)? I am just not seeing any Town in her play.

Not sure where Magua stands on this other than knowing he doesn’t think any of the above are Town.

--

Questions / Comments for the moment

–

@Tammy

– why did my post not bear discussion until you finally mentioned it. Also … are you suggesting that we’re giving out ‘inside information’ by showing we have know the scum Wincon despite it being mentioned by the Mod. I’d like you to be clear on that.

@LLD

– why don’t you discuss Singer’s ‘Calling Tammy Town while voting her’ stance in light of your stance on UN.

[Tierce]

Other than the fact that pretty much all dead town suspected me in Paranoia? I can't really do much for you here, Glork. I really can't compare a town game to a scum game of my own and expect the results to be unbiased, because I already know my alignment is different.

I was successful as scum in Paranoia. Yes, I was copying my town meta and subverting my scum meta in that game--there were several instances of "why would scum Tierce ever do this" that were there on purpose. That's what I've learned to do as scum because it wins me scum games, and heck, it was fun to do.
As town, if there are such instances, they come naturally. See what I mean? As scum, I have to think about them. (TBQH, I'd like to think that at this stage my scumplay is good enough that I don't derp as I already did here, but I missed a mid-of-line vote in Paranoia and that might count as derping? Dunno.) As town, my behavior is transparent because I don't have to hide anything.


Seeing you paranoid here makes me feel better about you, at least.

[Tierce]

Fucking fuck.

Oversoul, of course my stuff in Paranoia was engineered to look town. I was

scum

and the only place I was being transparent on was the scum QT, where I laid all my cards down and wasn't on strategilurk mode.

Maybe realize that I don't have to 'try' because this behavior comes naturally

because I'm town

?

Can you please reconcile these two quotes? Obivously you had success engineering townplay in Paranoia, as you survived and won.

How exactly do you expect us to discern "EngineeredTierceTown" from "GenuineTierceTown"?

Oh, I see what you mean.

That wasn't my point. My point is that UberNinja is accusing me of looking (too?) town. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. I look town because I'm town--if his case on me is a Tammy vote + looking town, there's nothing I can do for him when those are clearly coming from a town mindset. I understand Oversoul's suspicion if there are similarities in my play with Paranoia, though those similarities are deliberate (because I got crap done in Paranoia and I want to get crap done in my town games); but UberNinja's suspicion on me is crap, because he doesn't really keep up with games he has died in (so he doesn't even have Paranoia-similarities to draw on as "omg Tierce is scum paranoia ohshi--"), and in his other game with me (Weather Mafia II) we were both town--aaaand he didn't keep up with that one either.

tl;dr:
1) UberNinja doesn't know my meta and accuses me of looking town;
2) Well then.
3) I throw my hands up in the air sometimes, saying hey-o, gotta let go...
4) (Hi Vi.)

[UberNinja]

Maybe realize that I don't have to 'try' because this behavior comes naturally

because I'm town

? I mean, seriously, if you want to call me "too townie" just after you called me obvscum, by all means. (Hint: look at most of my finished town games, I

do

obvtown like crazy. And yes, I call myself obvtown as town, because the level of clarity in my alignment tends to be pretty ridiculous.)

Oversoul toes the line of game integrity in pretty much every game he's in and that drives me bananas. I get angry at that. (Oh no she's an angry person she's totes obvscum--hey dude meet Fate and SpyreX and you'll see what true anger is.) I've lynched town as town for this bullshit and NO REGRETS.

You call yourself town as scum too. Your point?

Just keep voting Toast. The rest is pretty much irrelevant tbqh.

If I wasn't voting toast I'd be voting for you.

[UberNinja]

I accused you of looking town? What the fuck?

[MaguaofIllusion]

So Spyrex my man … let’s lay things out on the table …

Your Tammy push this game smells of Spyrex scum. It’s actually pretty damn reminiscent of how you played early in ooba’s ASOFAI game … you found something that looks like it can be exploited (in that game it was my calling for sure scum on the early wagon, here it is Tammy’s general playstyle) and is unpopular and running at it full bore. Your early ISO screams this …every post is designed to express how Tammy’s spunk is scummy and her reaction to you is scummy.

And it is accomplished with a helping heaping of “Spyrex Language” obscure-o-matic. Now you always do tend to play the “Let’s play fast and loose with the English language” game regardless of alignment. That said you take it to a new level when scum. Just like in Victorian Vampire Mafia where you were all “Dingle, dangle” all the time. The fact that we specifically have UN saying “ I have no idea what you are saying” indicates you’ve upped the ante on that play.

But what sealed it for me is Post 253. For the audience at home let’s revisit the reason for that post.

At Post 239 I asked SpySpy why he didn’t need instant rope for Post 139. I didn’t specifiy why he needed to hang for it … just that he was voteworthy.

And we get the following response –

Ok its time for far more words about this subject than they deserve.

Lets assume that its a unified scumgroup AND that is their wincon. Hell we will make it easier and assume there is no third parties or even vigs. 1 kill a round.

How many scum would you expect? 6-7?

If thats the case there is absolutely no way that list is less than 11 at minimum. Further, that list is going to contain some seeerious business thats gonna HAVE to be taken out via kill and not pray for a mislynch.

Third parties? Vigs? That number is going to go up.

If its AT something like 11? Well then I would bank on the town having enough power to balance for missing multiple theoretical days.

THAT SAID:

Even if it WERE the case I flat out deny the floating background theory that this is a scum move tryin to make it easy - especially by both of them. D1 in a setup like this its tantamount to death in a myriad of ways tryin to throw out the seeker claim.

I think they are both town but I will unequivocally say that there is no chance in hell both of them are scum that possess that wincon. No way.

My statement still stands and it will stand forever: saying they are looking for someone doesn't bother me. I wish that if that was the route they were going for (in all scenarios in which they're assuming who they are looking for isn't ALSO looking for them) they'd have either kept quiet OR

just rolled the hard eight and said who it was.

The middle ground doesn't help near as well.

On a related note to that its a little personal reflection time: I am not good at scum. That little icon I have? Its because I could sit and just fuel the fires of paranoia very, very similar to this wincon business we're seeing already. I'm absolutely waiting with baited breath for the inevitable "But blahblah claimed DEATHMACHINE ENDER OF WORLDS I BET SCUM BE LOOKIN FER HIM"

Firstly this is “hey, I’m going to throw down some mindless Set-up talk and hope that addresses the problem”. Yes, that’s just a move to say “Let’s not discuss this” because the list is too big blah blah blah.

Secondly the little bit at the end that I bolded is VERY telling. Not a single vote and you are already defending your play with “I’m so terrible at scum, ignore this Scummie that shows I am good at at” is terrible. Alchemist put it best when he said “I can smell your fear”.

But the italicized is the damning things here. Name claiming is VERY, VERY stupid in the set-up. Magua and I pre-game discussed that very thing when he noted the Scum Wincon. He went so far to suggest that someone at L-1 claiming should only claim their roles (Cop, Vig, etc) and not their name. Scum clearly have a list of targets (and by this we both conclude character names) that must be eliminated to win. As Magua put it “Anyone suggesting mass-claiming should be met with HOT DEATH” in not so many words.

And in Post 139 you did something that doesn't benefit Town but does benefit Scum …

Ehh this claiming doesn't bother me in the intrinsic sense. Although if they're gonna go for it I'd almost rather them go whole hog.

You said “Meh I’d rather have them full out claim names (or who they are looking for) than soft-claim”. And I agree that the soft-claiming isn’t doing anyone favors but full bore claiming “I’m looking for X” is terrible.

Scum have the full complement of names they need to kill. Player X going “Hey I’m looking for Flavor Guy 1”. That tells scum either that by looking for Flavor Guy 1 that said player is likely a good target (he’s not looking for someone from our list) or not. It narrows down their target base each time it happens.

Encouraging ANY level of claiming on that end is damn scummy.

So we have that. Plus Post 415 where you say –

Singer's Magua + SpyreX scumteam combo is suspect because on top of the half wrong at best I cant even SEE the pretend connection in his one whopping post.

Is pretty bad a Singer, albeit scummy as heck so far, never said “these players are partners”. Her statement was one of “these are my top two suspects”. And we all know that two players can be independently scummy and until you have flips just saying “Hmmm, I can’t suspect Spryex and Maguaofillusion because they don’t make sense as partners” is hogwash.

I have no illusions that you are the lynch today. Too many people are willing to give you a pass because, well, they like you. But for the moment you can have my vote.

[SpyreX]

Woo pages. They got skimmed for now.

I'm out for the day so I'll address MoI nice and succinctly:

The concern about "the list" drastically altering play is retarded. Every bit of that pile of farts above is a function of worrying about that. So, ipso facto, you're doing exactly what I said was going to happen this game which is dumb as rocks.

And I never said just claim role. I said I'm waiting for someone getting strung up rightly so to claim something that causes the wagon to dissolve under "well thats a name scum are probably lookin for herf herf".

I'm hoping, HOPING, that Tierce gets team hammer bros to find her directly as a function of her claiming today and, like I surmised, it is directly and actively useful for town so this mantra of hurbablabala nameclaims are bad when the claiming of names has a direct benefit can get stuck in your gullets and you choke on it.

Seriously I can't fathom not understanding the difference between "claiming names as part of a mechanic" and "claiming names because ???" because YES the latter is dumb because it is unnecessary but the former? wheeelde

[Oversoul]

Yay Faraday I am so glad you were able to play in this game

Tierce's response is a lot of words so I feel confident that she said something she won't be able to take something back once I start discussing everything.

Anyway, Glork, this is why I don't like the softclaim from Tierce

Tierce has continually complained about being the Night 1 kill in many of her games. She has stated that she absolutely hates it because once she is dead no one bothers to listen to her reads or follow her suspicions.

What has she done in this game?

Painted a huge fucking target on her back.

How, you might ask?

By softclaiming. And then, full claiming. Her paranoia over death and the frustration at being killed apparently did not dissuade her from soft claiming right after you did, and then full claiming.

To top it all off, Tierce realizes her death is quite certain, if she is town. Yet she is playing this no hand holding thing as if it will last the entire game. At most I would expect an accurate town Tierce to live 1 or 2 game days and Tierce is coming into this thread expecting it to be much longer.

To top it all off, Nuwen, a person as scum who pretty much has a fetish for Tierce's corpse, is in this game and Tierce is still not afraid of full claiming?

I don't buy it for a second.

Tierce, I don't "toe the lines of game integrity" in EVERY game. Just about 95% of them. I will stop though since it is visibly making you distressed and I don't like doing that to anyone.

MaguaofIllusion is going down the path against Spyrex that I was going to take and bringing up the point that I was going to make. Spyrex as scum likes to go after weak links in the town. His push for a lynch on Tammy looks very much like a push against a weak link seeing as Tammy is quite new.

[Tierce]

Faraday isn't in this game...? That's MoI and Magua. But I'll have Faraday with me in 90 min wheeee~


I tend to

have

paint big fucking targets on my back anyway. In Warlocks and Werewolves, I claimed weak doc on D1. In Newbie #1197, I claimed doc about 5 posts after replacing in (that was incredibly stupid and I'm not too fond of remembering that game ._.). I'm not afraid of fullclaiming, Oversoul. Look at this playerlist. I'm fairly confident that, if I die early, town has players

far more capable

than me to keep things going--I'm not THAT arrogant. Tiercetown doesn't die that early in Larges.

You're actually rather wrong in your perception of how I feel about being killed early. It's usually a compliment--it means scum saw me as a threat. I hate that town

ignores

me afterwards, I don't hate

being killed

per se. It's two different things. It's more a "arrrrgh why aren't they sheeping my reads HELLO IS SOMEONE THERE" reaction than hating being killed--if I'm killed, a future town loss isn't really my fault. >.>

Aaaand Nuwen? Seriously? The jumps in logic you are making mean you're probably town trying to piece this whole thing together (much more rationally than you do as scum, btw), but I

adore

Nuwen. You can see me going after SpyreX and Nuwen like a lost puppy (sorry Typo Incarnate, but that's a truth and yes I should be paranoid but I don't see Spyscum atm). She may have a tendency to kill me early on as scum because we somewhat similar scumhunting styles; OTOH, I wouldn't be afraid to get her dead if I thought she was scum. I don't fear her when I'm town--I fear people when I'm scum. Your logic is backwards.

I didn't even consider Nuwen-scum when I fullclaimed, but if you want to disprove that theory--look at when Wyrd called me town, then see when I fullclaimed. Their townread on me makes me believe that Wyrd are town, so, logically, Tiercetown would have no reason to fear Nuwenscum.

(FWIW, Nuwen has killed me twice as scum. Admittedly, that's the sum of the games we've played together in which I was town and she was scum. Stop that, lady.)

[UberNinja]

But... I

like

seeing Tierce distressed. It's literally one of the most satisfying things on this site.

[Oversoul]

Faraday isn't in this game...? That's MoI and Magua. But I'll have Faraday with me in 90 min wheeee~

I know.

[implosion]

Hi.

Toasty: connection hunting is

bad.

In a 29-player game, the probability that you're going to successfully pick out two scum from a relational tell on day one is practically zero. I always cite Vi's guide when i'm making this point but yeah it should be obvious why and I don't feel like going into why right now.

Toasty is scummy. First of all the way that he voted for UN instead of Tammy in his first post doesn't make sense - he said that he shifts to UN, essentially, because UN called Tammy town. So his suspicion on uberninja is largely dependent on his suspicion of Tammy. On the other hand, he gave independent reasons to be suspicious of Tammy, but didn't vote on them. He votes uberninja essentially for being scum with Tammy. He also talks about the way that Tierce treated uberninja. His comments on post 68 also misinterpret the post in a rather strange way, as calling Tammy town and then voting her. I really feel like if you read something and misread it like that, you'd read it again until you realized what it actually said, and not just go with that being what it is. Unless he's talking about where UN just overtly called Tammy town, but that was after he voted Tammy, and he said later that he forgot his vote had been on Tammy. In fact, he explained that he had forgotten his vote was on tammy

before toasty's post

. Either way, toasty is missing very overt things from the people that he's calling scum.

Also dislike pretty much all of 449.

My first impressions of tammy/un/tierce are all town (tierce more so than the others). Alchemist might be scum. Less so than toasty right now. I'll look at other people later.

VOTE: Toasty

[ToastyToast]

Got a lot to catch up on. I will respond to all of you tonight but its going to take some time. For now, responding to Glork's questions/post.

Seriously. When a player's top 3 suspicion list is exactly the top 3 votegetters in the game, 99% of the time (yes, this is rhetoric, fuck you all) it means that they're scum who are willng to ride any easy wagon to mislynch. It's a hallmark of lazy scum who can't (or simply choose not to) actually hunt for scum on their own. They are content to "find" the most widely-suspected people scummy. Sometimes. Sometimes it comes from very, very weak town who are just incapable of scumhunting on their own. But a vast majority of the time, it's from scum who want to look like they are scumhunting, look like they are contributing, but really just want to get through the day by lynching someone else, as long as they don't attract a lot of attention.

1) Ever consider that I may just be lazy town? Oversoul already mentioned how this game was going to be one I put like 50% effort into. 2)I'm not weak by any means, you are just assuming that I'm only going to have three reads the entire game. The 3 are just a starting point, and the fact that they each had large wagons on them meant I had to examine them and their wagons. Instead of finding sketchy people piling wagons onto them, I found them to have a distracting meta-pregame thing going on. I don't think people get why I don't like it. Its all useless information. Anything that happened in another game is from

another game

and not this one. This three of them were relying almost entirely on things other than the first eight pages.
I am in no way inexperienced at mafia and I know why suspecting the 3 top vote getters can be suspicious. But I'm still of the opinion that there is something b/w the three of them and I'm not going to ignore that and replace it with reads I don't actually have a strong opinion on.

How do you feel about Nikanor? Why?

Nikanor is bordering on trollish with his "what rhymes with talcum mist?" stuff, but thats something independent of alignment. I wish he'd say more about his Alchemist read but I don't expect him to. He's full-null, primarily due to a lack of information.

How do you feel about Oversoul? Why?

Town. REads are good, puts effort into explaining them, has been fairly informative thus far into the game.

If Haze were dayvigged right now, and flipped scum, who do you think would be most likely to be his scumbuddy? Why?

Hmm. I'd have to say Gamma just because they sort of passively mention one another, without really challenging the other in any way. It comes of as "oh, then there's this Haze guy." I don't think Haze is scum, however. Could also be UN because he's essentially defending him with the powerful statement of "it felt sincere." ie, something subjective that I should be able to disagree and counter by simply saying "it didn't."

More soon.

[ToastyToast]

But since I'm here and can read the post directly above mine, @implosion: and I acknowledged UN's "oops" post within mine and said I thought it was BS. I'm pretty sure I've caught all these allegedly overt things you are talking about, and have mentioned them in my posts. read.

[implosion]

So you think uberninja calling tammy town was bs - do you think this is a scumtell regardless of tammy's alignment, or only if tammy is scum?

[Glork]

Oversoul, how the hell is her death certain? If I'm scum and Rolf isn't one of the characters I have to kill, there's no way in hell I spend a nightkill on that slot. Are you even thinking before ou spout this kind of ridiculous nonsense?