Newbie 1248 (GAME OVER)

[Axxle]

"Information instead of analysis" It's supposed to be a scumtell, but I'm not very convinced of that.

[Hyperion]

OK here we go the Bold is mine:

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

I'm not questioning your attack on his vote, it did look kind of scummy. But you started being ridicuously pushy and slightly obnoxious trying to get him to answer. You definately seemed like you were trying to pick a fight with him, and this happened maybe 4 hours after Seacore declared Wombat town for picking a fight with the IC. It seems very staged and oppurtunistic.

What I meant was I have no illusions that I'll look town by attacking him. If he said "Axxle is town. No newbie scum picks a fight with the IC" I would have been very surprised and confused. I also obviously didn't mean to come across as scum for doing so either.

It happened maybe four hours after Seacore cleared someone else for attacking him, it just looks planned and staged to me

Pre-edit: Well. Do I really come across as attacking easy targets? I feel like I've attacked or questioned most at some point this game. I never really expected anyone to go along with me, I'm just trying to get responses out of people and give responses as appropriate. If you take that to be over defensive that how do you even expect to get a response out of anyone? And since when is pressure bad? I mean really.

Most of what you have done has included pressuring the inactives, yes we need to pressure them, but its easy to pressure someone who isn't doing anything instead of looking at the people who have been doing something

To be specific:

Next up is...
Axxle:
Post 13 Intro post, a vote for LC because LC doesnt like RQS, but then he goes on to say he doesnt know if RQS is helpful in scum hunting, it just helps newbs feel like they are contributing. The problem with that is that it isnt really contributing, its all a discussion of game mechanics, which is a really easy place for scum to hide and look busy.

Well, I didn't know game mechanic discussions was a thing that benefited mafia before LC's link.

Then for future reference, it helps a mafia to look busy, because it looks like they are contributiing, but nothing they asy pertains to this game, so its like safe, easy contribution.

Post 20 is game mechanics, and very obvious game mechanics, "getting everyone to talk is the way to find scum" good job, you get a gold star for common sense skills.

what? there are noobs/idiots that don't know even this. I'm not a good enough mafia player to know the intricacies yet.

How else do you expect us to find the scum... magic?

Post 21 Is him pressuring inactive players,

on page 1

, he goes after easy targets.

Ok, so? What's wrong with pressuring people? There wasn't a lot happening page 1...

It looks like you are trying to look like you are contributing, it is highly unlikely for everyone to have posted by page one, this presssure starting her seems unnecessary.

Post 28 is him defending his lynch policy (granted I agree with his policy, but so far he hasn't done really anyhting of substance pertaining to the current game). Unvotes deciding to not be part of RVS

Arinna voted for me because of my lynching policy. I felt the need to defend myself. I also hadn't finished that article yet. Point?

Its empty contribution, it wouldnt have looked scummy if you had contributed more before had

Post 38 wishy washy on LC's RVS comment (I dont like this, but it was probably just this...) The vote on Wombat seems OK to me though. He rephrases part of this post in post 41 per my request.

I thought it was pretty direct. Although seeing this does make me realize where LC was coming from when he posted later.

You don't take a very firm stand, trying to be agreeable and not step on any toes, which is scummy, because mafia want to blend in and not stand out

44 is a defense of Arinna (I know someone already commented on it, but it did seem rather strong this early, especially when he has no prior game experience with Arinna.)

Yeah, yeah. You don't want my townreads? Fine. It turned out to be very spot on though.

I didnt say I didnt want it, I'm just saying, how can you glean all that from 2 or 3 pages, it looks like you are trying to make her look good

46 and 47 is an overdefensive (IMO, or course) reaction to LC's vote on him.

LC thought he was being incredibly clear. Two people said he wasn't. It's therefore obvious he wasn't clear. I also don't think I defended myself so much as addressed that issue.

Yeah I think I read that wrong, with that first sentence, I thought you were defending your vote on wombat saying it was random which wouldnt have made sense

61 The first part can be rather wishy washy in places like this: "I thought it was obvious that LC was being ambiguous but since LC's explanation I can see how wombat would have thought it was understandable at first glance."

I was wrong about LC and wombat's intentions? Ok? I can be wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sayin youa arent taking a solid stance

Pressures lurkers again

Why isn't anyone else pressuring lurkers? Is there something I just don't get?

Its only day 3 of the 21 we have before deadline, we will get more right now from questioning the people who are active than from pressuring the ones who arent, and dont even attempt to be.

, and says Seacore looks scumy, then comes his "dude why aren't you answering me stuff "

I gave my reasons for it, that maybe he saw what LC and wombat saw and posted that anyway to throw people like me off.

Yes but your "why arent you answering me thing" stilll looks bad, as Ihave said before

He aslo tries to almost pick a fight with LC in Post 64 Also, this comes after Seacore says attacking a experienced player isn't newbscummy.

Again I apologize for that. I'm used to getting very prompt responses where being ignored usually means that players are scared to answer.

We have 21 days, thats 504 hours, if it takes him like 7 or 8 hours to respond to you becaus ehe has more important real life things, like a job and a family, thats OK, because we still have 400 an whatever hours left for him to answer

Pressure crabby again, goes for easy target

He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?

already addressed this elsewhere

And then comes his "why aren't you answering my tirade, which I have already expressed my opinions on.

Sorry. I want to keep the game moving.

like I said, we have 504 hours, 7 or eight of them arent going to make a huge difference

Then pressure + votes for Crabby, again an easy target.

"He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?"

see above

[Hyperion]

OK here we go the Bold is mine:

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

I'm not questioning your attack on his vote, it did look kind of scummy. But you started being ridicuously pushy and slightly obnoxious trying to get him to answer. You definately seemed like you were trying to pick a fight with him, and this happened maybe 4 hours after Seacore declared Wombat town for picking a fight with the IC. It seems very staged and oppurtunistic.

What I meant was I have no illusions that I'll look town by attacking him. If he said "Axxle is town. No newbie scum picks a fight with the IC" I would have been very surprised and confused. I also obviously didn't mean to come across as scum for doing so either.

It happened maybe four hours after Seacore cleared someone else for attacking him, it just looks planned and staged to me

Pre-edit: Well. Do I really come across as attacking easy targets? I feel like I've attacked or questioned most at some point this game. I never really expected anyone to go along with me, I'm just trying to get responses out of people and give responses as appropriate. If you take that to be over defensive that how do you even expect to get a response out of anyone? And since when is pressure bad? I mean really.

Most of what you have done has included pressuring the inactives, yes we need to pressure them, but its easy to pressure someone who isn't doing anything instead of looking at the people who have been doing something

To be specific:

Next up is...
Axxle:
Post 13 Intro post, a vote for LC because LC doesnt like RQS, but then he goes on to say he doesnt know if RQS is helpful in scum hunting, it just helps newbs feel like they are contributing. The problem with that is that it isnt really contributing, its all a discussion of game mechanics, which is a really easy place for scum to hide and look busy.

Well, I didn't know game mechanic discussions was a thing that benefited mafia before LC's link.

Then for future reference, it helps a mafia to look busy, because it looks like they are contributiing, but nothing they asy pertains to this game, so its like safe, easy contribution.

Post 20 is game mechanics, and very obvious game mechanics, "getting everyone to talk is the way to find scum" good job, you get a gold star for common sense skills.

what? there are noobs/idiots that don't know even this. I'm not a good enough mafia player to know the intricacies yet.

How else do you expect us to find the scum... magic?

Post 21 Is him pressuring inactive players,

on page 1

, he goes after easy targets.

Ok, so? What's wrong with pressuring people? There wasn't a lot happening page 1...

It looks like you are trying to look like you are contributing, it is highly unlikely for everyone to have posted by page one, this presssure starting her seems unnecessary.

Post 28 is him defending his lynch policy (granted I agree with his policy, but so far he hasn't done really anyhting of substance pertaining to the current game). Unvotes deciding to not be part of RVS

Arinna voted for me because of my lynching policy. I felt the need to defend myself. I also hadn't finished that article yet. Point?

Its empty contribution, it wouldnt have looked scummy if you had contributed more before had

Post 38 wishy washy on LC's RVS comment (I dont like this, but it was probably just this...) The vote on Wombat seems OK to me though. He rephrases part of this post in post 41 per my request.

I thought it was pretty direct. Although seeing this does make me realize where LC was coming from when he posted later.

You don't take a very firm stand, trying to be agreeable and not step on any toes, which is scummy, because mafia want to blend in and not stand out

44 is a defense of Arinna (I know someone already commented on it, but it did seem rather strong this early, especially when he has no prior game experience with Arinna.)

Yeah, yeah. You don't want my townreads? Fine. It turned out to be very spot on though.

I didnt say I didnt want it, I'm just saying, how can you glean all that from 2 or 3 pages, it looks like you are trying to make her look good

46 and 47 is an overdefensive (IMO, or course) reaction to LC's vote on him.

LC thought he was being incredibly clear. Two people said he wasn't. It's therefore obvious he wasn't clear. I also don't think I defended myself so much as addressed that issue.

Yeah I think I read that wrong, with that first sentence, I thought you were defending your vote on wombat saying it was random which wouldnt have made sense

61 The first part can be rather wishy washy in places like this: "I thought it was obvious that LC was being ambiguous but since LC's explanation I can see how wombat would have thought it was understandable at first glance."

I was wrong about LC and wombat's intentions? Ok? I can be wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sayin youa arent taking a solid stance

Pressures lurkers again

Why isn't anyone else pressuring lurkers? Is there something I just don't get?

Its only day 3 of the 21 we have before deadline, we will get more right now from questioning the people who are active than from pressuring the ones who arent, and dont even attempt to be.

, and says Seacore looks scumy, then comes his "dude why aren't you answering me stuff "

I gave my reasons for it, that maybe he saw what LC and wombat saw and posted that anyway to throw people like me off.

Yes but your "why arent you answering me thing" stilll looks bad, as Ihave said before

He aslo tries to almost pick a fight with LC in Post 64 Also, this comes after Seacore says attacking a experienced player isn't newbscummy.

Again I apologize for that. I'm used to getting very prompt responses where being ignored usually means that players are scared to answer.

We have 21 days, thats 504 hours, if it takes him like 7 or 8 hours to respond to you becaus ehe has more important real life things, like a job and a family, thats OK, because we still have 400 an whatever hours left for him to answer

Pressure crabby again, goes for easy target

He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?

already addressed this elsewhere

And then comes his "why aren't you answering my tirade, which I have already expressed my opinions on.

Sorry. I want to keep the game moving.

like I said, we have 504 hours, 7 or eight of them arent going to make a huge difference

Then pressure + votes for Crabby, again an easy target.

"He isn't doing anything. Is it so wrong to kick him into action?"

see above

[Hyperion]

^that posted twice, its all the same though

[Hyperion]

Next is:
Balnazzar... so nothing, skipping to the next person on the player list:
Lord Chronos:
Votes Arinna because he says he hates RQS because it changes the focus of the game (a good reason for hating RQS, don't think it is a great reason for voting Arinna though)
Defends his RVS thing (still not sure why its supposed to be confusing), makes good point in 45, Axxle's defense of Arinna seems to strong this early. Questioned why Arinna no longer thinks he is town. Asking questions can help,
Honestly overall, LC seems null to me.

[Hyperion]

I'll leave off on Morton because he is V/LA, so I'll cover him when he gets back.

[Seacore]

Axxle,

1. Please don't fall into the trap of using buzz words and acronyms. They're not as helpful as they are dangerous. I'm not just talking about the words themselves, mind you, I'm talking about the concepts. Using them as scum tells without understanding them properly is not good.

2. What Hyperion is doing isn't IIOA. He's stating what he's seen of a player, stated his interpretation of that and then given a final read based on the above info. That is the definition of analysis.

[Hyperion]

Seacore
Asks questions to get the game going (On Wombat's vote on him, and on wombat's original answer to question three) but they have been on game mechanics, so the good part of questioning cancels out the GM stuff, so null for now.
Pressures LC, like I said for Axxle, that can be going after an easy target. Also pressure crabby, so same thing as before.
Thats all for now, busy tomorrow, dont expect much till later.

[Axxle]

Axxle,

1. Please don't fall into the trap of using buzz words and acronyms. They're not as helpful as they are dangerous. I'm not just talking about the words themselves, mind you, I'm talking about the concepts. Using them as scum tells without understanding them properly is not good.

2. What Hyperion is doing isn't IIOA. He's stating what he's seen of a player, stated his interpretation of that and then given a final read based on the above info. That is the definition of analysis.

Sure, my bad.

Also: I'll give my reads in a few hours or so.

[Seacore]

Its important you guys learn the buzz terms, because a lot of players use them, but I think relying on them is not so helpful. Things like IIOA, WIFOM AtE. Too much gets written off as these things and then discarded.

[wombat99]

OK, so Axxle is starting to be ridiculous attacking Seacore. Is he just doing that because Seacore said Wombat was town because newbscum wouldn't attack the IC, and Axxle wants him to say Axxle looks town for the same reason?

That would be silly for him think I'm town for attacking him after he made a post like that. I'm pressuring him for a few reasons. Many (not all) of his previous posts had been terse. Because some had been lengthy I knew that I should be able to get more out of him. I also did get a scummy vibe (after the fact) from him reading way too much into LC's post about RVS, which also created the first second vote on someone.

Sorry I'm too pushy Seacore, I'm used to another forum where I get incredibly prompt responses from people in just one mafia game.

@Arinna: The only reason I think LC is scummy is that he's misrepresenting my stance on his post regarding RVS.

I got what I wanted out of Seacore, well a little more than what I wanted because of all the flak, but I'm going to move on.

VOTE: crabbyman66

you're not going to be able to be that meek and lurky crabbyman. Speak now, or... eh, just respond to something. What about Arinna's queston: "Axxle, Hyperion, Mortontfrh, Balnazzar, what do you think about this theoretical discussion that has been going on? (To clarify, I am not asking you about the RVS, but what has been going on between Chronos, Wombat and Seacore, and its implications, if any.)"

... wait... Why did you leave out crabbyman, Arinna?

I had the same thought: Axxle tried to get some townie cred by picking a fight with the IC. He is used to a faster moving game, so he did not wait long before doing it. In a slower-moving game like this, it sticks out.

His reasons for pushing Seacore are weak: for being terse and lengthy, and a previously-unmentioned scummy vibe. He says he got what he needed from Seacore but is vague about what that is that he got.

Then directs attention to Arinna and Crabbyman. (Nothing more to see here, move along)...

[Arinna]

My views on the players so far...

Axxle: Changes votes

a lot

. First Chronos (RVS vote), then Wombat, then Seacore, and then Crabbyman. I think I know what those votes were for, although I'm not sure if they're working in the way intended. In any case... His posts generally include questions, self-defences, and some comments (although not many tangible arguments regarding other players). Perhaps it's my lack of perception, perhaps I get confused after reading all the posts, but to be honest, I can't see clearly what Axxle thinks about other players, and not knowing what a player thinks makes me feel uneasy. Can you please write what you think about everyone with clear and detailed reasons? And I would also very much like to know who you think is the most scummy (again, with reasons included.)

Crabbyman: I find his behaviour unacceptable, but everyone has already commented on that. One thing I'd like to point out is that the last time he was online does not directly prove that he hasn't been online since then; he may have logged out, and may be reading the thread that way. There is no way to confirm if this is the case, of course.

Hyperion: Questions people a lot, makes analytical comments; he gives me the highest town frequencies right now. After reading some of the recent posts, I do have a few questions. Do you consider wishy-washiness a scumtell? What makes you think that Chronos is/was an easy target?

Chronos: I'm neutral towards him. I don't feel like he gives us enough information to go on, which, again, makes me feel uneasy. I would also like to ask you about your opinions of the other players and who you think is the scummiest, with reasons.

Seacore: I was null towards him when he voted on Chronos based on a gut feeling. I find his latest arguments to be good, with clearly stated and in my opinion valid reasons. At this point, I think he's town.

Wombat: What do you think about Seacore, Chronos and Hyperion? Wombat seems null to me. She doesn't ask questions, but she does make comments on people and their actions and almost none of her posts contain material that is irrelevant.

[Axxle]

I thought I'd have more time but I'll just got through them quickly:

crabbyman66

- Null, sounded like he was genuinely interested to know how to play town. I like this quote though: "I'm in favor of voting for lurkers to spur a bit more activity"

wombat99

- Don't like the vote on Seacore just because he didn't read as much into LC's post. Not really sure what post #60 is all about, maybe something got lost? Slight mafia.

Arinna

- Asks some good questions, something about her tactics are very understandable to me. Moderate town.

Balnazzar

- N/A

Hyperion

- Lots to look through, I'll be quick: I get a town read off him. He feels like the most down to earth and critical. Most content by far.

LordChronos

- The only thing he's really been involved in is that misunderstanding fiasco. This is my strongest scum read (although still weak) for refusing to accept being wrong and painting me and Seacore as the bad guys.

Mortontfrh

(0) - Null.

Seacore

- I get a decent town read from Seacore. LC was being vague, whatever I ended up saying to take that back later. He also seems to be looking at all the evidence every time he posts something of substance.

[AGar]

Votecount 1.04

crabbyman66

(1) - Axxle

Axxle

(3) - Arinna, LordChronos, Seacore

wombat99

(0) -

Arinna

(0) -

Balnazzar

(0) -

Hyperion

(0) -

LordChronos

(1) - Mortontfrh

Mortontfrh

(0) -

Seacore

(1) - wombat99

Not Voting

(3) - crabbyman66, Balnazzar, Hyperion

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Axxle

is the current wagon leader(s), at

L-2

Deadline is in (expired on 2012-06-23 07:00:00)

Balnazzar has disappeared, I'm seeking out a replacement now.

[AGar]

Why can't replacing people in my Large Theme be this easy?

kalbim replaces Balnazzar, effective immediately.

[wombat99]

Seacore, can you speak to this: I've never played in a hammer vote game. What is the protocol - Hyperion's hesitation to vote has made me hesitate, too. Is it good form to vote to lynch or go to L-1 when we have a newly-subbed-in player we have not heard from yet?

[Axxle]

What I've seen people do in the past is say something like "Intent to hammer" and wait a day or so for people to raise objections or not, and then hammer.

[LordChronos]

Okay, finals are finally over, so I should be able to devote more time to mafia. Working on compiling a big (or a couple smaller) catch up post(s).

[kalbim]

I think I am just going to vote lord chaos for not posting in the thread for awhile (and some other things). His reason for not posting was that he was doing his finals, but it sounds fishy becuase I would think that his school would be out by now

/vote lord chaos

[kalbim]

I think I am just going to vote lord chaos for not posting in the thread for awhile (and some other things). His reason for not posting was that he was doing his finals, but it sounds fishy becuase I would think that his school would be out by now

/vote lord chaos

Sorry i meant lord chronos. oops

/unvote lord chaos /vote lord chronos

[Axxle]

I think I am just going to vote lord chaos for not posting in the thread for awhile (and some other things). His reason for not posting was that he was doing his finals, but it sounds fishy becuase I would think that his school would be out by now

/vote lord chaos

Many schools on the quarter system are still in session.

[Axxle]

*quarter system near me

[Axxle]

Have you read through the entire thread? What are your thoughts on player's actions as opposed to inactions?

[Arinna]

Seacore, can you speak to this: I've never played in a hammer vote game. What is the protocol - Hyperion's hesitation to vote has made me hesitate, too. Is it good form to vote to lynch or go to L-1 when we have a newly-subbed-in player we have not heard from yet?

I'm sure that Seacore will give a much better and more detailed account on your question when he comes, based on his own experiences, whereas what I'm about to write will be based on observations.

There are several things to keep in mind when bringing someone to L-1. Firstly, it does not always lead to a lynch and may not always be intended for a lynch; however, when this is done, one must take the risk of having an accidental or quick hammer by someone without getting the person lynched to claim or make a defense.

In terms of hammering, there is what Axxle has already said, the "intent to hammer", when it gives the person about to be lynched the chance to claim and discuss the matter, make defenses, etc.

What must be kept in mind, whether there is a new player or not, is that it is

much

better to wait until the end of the three weeks' period of D1 approaches, so that everything can be discussed as much as possible. (You know, the more discussion there is, the more possible evidence is generated, but if the period of discussion is cut short, it prevents the players from getting a better idea of things.)

I'm sorry if I'm just stating things you already know, but I kind of panicked when hammering was mentioned. =w=

--

Welcome, Kalbim. ("kalbim" as in "my heart"?) As Axxle has already asked, can you please give us your opinions of all the players and the interactions/discussions that have been going on between them once you read the whole thread? And what are the other things (as you have said), besides your disbelief in Chronos's reason for not being able to post much, that have made you suspicious of him?

[Hyperion]

OK so I'm back earlier than expected.
Arinna, to reply to your questions, yes I think wishiwashiness is a scum tell, because scum tend to try to blend in, because if they stand out, people will look at them more, and may discover evidence against them. That being said, they wouldn't take a strong stance, so they wouldn't stand out, so they would say things like "maybe this but..." etc. As to your second question, I thought that LC was an easy target because he hasn't had a lot of time to post because of his finals. Its easy to attack someone for a low post count, it is hard for someone to actually look through and make comments on the scumminess of posts, especially for scum, because they know who is scummy and who isn't, and have to lie to convince us that someone who is town is scum.