NY 154: Return to Boring Town - Game Over

[Empking]

if i didn't hammer do you really think its likely the pres wagon would have made it all the way? it was only page three, how many games have you seen where the very first wagon of the game goes straight through.

Quite a few. It's a rarity but not shocking. Even more common when the first wagon is on a newbie.

shouldn't scum announce intention to hammer there and demand a claim instead?
i know emp will yell wifom but seriously

and seriously let the guy answer for himself

WIFOM!

I all serious this really is a case for yelling WIFOM! since

town

not knowing Pres' alignment would be more likely to ask for a claim than a scum who was buddies with him. Since the town player wouldn't know they'd be able to make the "shouldn't scum announce intention to hammer there and demand a claim instead?" whereas scum would.

[nhammen]

We’ve all been in games where at some point a scum was power-bussed. Can you link me to any games you have played in where one of the strongest possible scum Roles was power-bussed Day 1 by the rest of the scum-team? It's not something I can ever recall seeing myself

I was scum in NY 131, a 17p with 4 scum. Scumpartner Pine and I ended up bussing Amor, our godfather, late on D1, and he wasn't nearly as bad as prescending was here. In that game he was a deadline lynch though, which may make a difference to you. And there was still 1 scum off the wagon (which I didn't remember until looking up the votecount).

I'm a failure. You asked for a link and I gave a description... I had opened up the game, but forgot to link it.
link

Ummm... I'd like you to explain the difference between "likely town" and "leaning town" for me please.

Toon has argued that Sal has been scummy up until a few posts before he started making some townish comments. ie. Sal was certainly scummy, but the his last few posts have given a town vibe. Hence the reason he stated he didn't care if he was scum or town anymore at that point.

This interpretation does not match what Toon said at all. But at least it is consitent with your reply to MoI. Even if you seem to be having some reading difficulties.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sala cannot be allowed to endgame.

We already have 2 Mafia dead and a claimed Vig. Why are you worrying about him making it to endgame (and by this I assume you mean LYLO ) with these facts?

--

Vel's right though. Scum, knowing their power is under heavy scrutiny and a very likely lynch, will try to be on the lynch to gain town cred and distance themselves from someone dead in the water.

So like Empking your theory is that scum would power-bus their Godfather on Page 2/3? When early game wagons rarely complete?

--

What would you say the chances of McQueen/Prescending scumbuddies.

Very low. Lower than the odds of you and Presc being partners.

Why we are talking – please explain to me why McStab is not listed on your reads list at Post 234?

--

There is almost nothing to find from our D1. It is true that Empking ignored the prescending wagon, but he wasn't the only one. His interchange with sala is the only real content he had D1, but I don't see much of a problem with that, given how short D1 was. Toogeloo's only content on D1 was also an interchange with sala, which also took place during the prescending wagon, while ignoring it.

Yes, but that’s a reason to be suspect of Toog also, not a reason to not be suspect of Empking.

I was scum in NY 131, a 17p with 4 scum. Scumpartner Pine and I ended up bussing Amor, our godfather, late on D1, and he wasn't nearly as bad as prescending was here. In that game he was a deadline lynch though, which may make a difference to you. And there was still 1 scum off the wagon (which I didn't remember until looking up the votecount).

That’s kind of my point … you can find situations where scum were bussed Day 1. You can find situations where powerful scum roles were bussed. But I’ve never seen a speed-lynch on a powerful scum role with every single partner bussing. I went through my Wiki to see if I could find a game that matches this circumstance and came up blank.

Closest thing I could come up with was Buffy Mafia where obv-scum iStark was power-bussed by both GreyICE and camn Day 1 after I busted him on page 1. He was a Goon so he doesn’t meet the PowerRole profile and it was a small game. Every other Day 1 scum lynch I found was not proliferated with partners.

I think the only way that wagon has significant scum on it is if we are in Multiball which we will not know til after a few days or another color Mafia flip.

--

MOI: You may think your position is clear but that's because you literally can read your mind. The rest of us have to get by on your posts and your refusals to clarify means that any argument of your's that involves others strawmanning or playing the semantic game are complete bupkis.

Actually you seem to be the only player who has any issue with the clarity of my stances. So no, your responses very much still strike me as scummy.

No.

I am suggesting that Pres' vote on ROFL seems out of character for Pres and suggests a connection between him and Rofl

(a scum connection considering the day of the lynch and his flip) this is compounded by the fact that ROFL was the quicklyncherbut that isn't the main point.

The bolded is fluffly language garbage. Out of character? That’s meaningless drivel.

Rofl hammering Prescing isn’t a scum-tell. Suggesting otherwise is scummy.

1. Because narrowing your suspect pool with a really weak tell (at best) is an inefficient way of doing it. f you chose a random pool of players to call suspects you'd probably be more accurate. There simply wasn't enough posts in the day for people to not ignore other people.

We can argue the strength of the tell in question (you and others completely ignoring the Presc wagon) all day long. The fact remains that your stance that scum are more likely to be bussing a Day 3 power-lynch on a Godfather is scummy. It doesn’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is played. You argument reads as contrived solely for your own defense as opposed to based on actual scum-hunting theory.

1. Why would it be? I don't get what scum stand to gain from not throwing in their two cents.
2. Scum are more likely to notice when a Godfather keeps on getting votes. Town is more likely to miss it.

RVS style wagons on players are pretty damn common. And very rarely do they go through, especially on scum. Scum certainly have every reason to hope that per the usual an early wagon (which in this case wasn’t really RVS and was actually based on scumminess) would disappate when ‘cooler heads’ prevailed.

What is the point of number 2. Scum of course are going to notice a wagon on their Godfather. They are also going to do whatever they feel is the best route to not letting it go through on Page 3. This includes pushing in another direction and ignoring it as 'Lulz, chucklewagon'.

Nothing in these responses is anything other than “Well Town wouldn’t do that because I did it and I’m Town” which is circular referencing garbage.

Vote stays.

[Empking]

The bolded is fluffly language garbage. Out of character? That’s meaningless drivel.

No it isn't. You know it isn't since "Out of character" is a common phrase in life as well as mafia.

What is the point of number 2. Scum of course are going to notice a wagon on their Godfather.

The point is in the line as a whole rather than the first sentence.

Nothing in these responses is anything other than “Well Town wouldn’t do that because I did it and I’m Town” which is circular referencing garbage.

Are you drunk? The reasoning you're to me isn't even circular it's simply nonsense. (Oh I'm playing sermantics by objecting to your pretending an argument is circular when it isn't.)

We can argue the strength of the tell in question (you and others completely ignoring the Presc wagon) all day long. The fact remains that your stance that scum are more likely to be bussing a Day 3 power-lynch on a Godfather is scummy. It doesn’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is played. You argument reads as contrived solely for your own defense as opposed to based on actual scum-hunting theory.

Let's use an analogy:
If bald men are 1/5th less likely to die in a fire than the average AND people in fires are 10 times more likely to die in a fire than average. Then is a bald man in a fire more or less likely to die in a fire than average? If you focus on the bald part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Let's unanalogise it:
If players on the Pres wagon are 1/5th less to be scum than the average AND people with connections to dead scum are 10 times more likely to be scum. Then is a wagonner with a Pres connection more likely to be scum than average? If you focus on the wagon part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

[Salamence20]

MoI: I figured I had everyone, I had to leave right away so I didnt have a chance to look.

McStab so far seems leaning town.

[Velazanth]

if i didn't hammer do you really think its likely the pres wagon would have made it all the way? it was only page three, how many games have you seen where the very first wagon of the game goes straight through.

shouldn't scum announce intention to hammer there and demand a claim instead

?
i know emp will yell wifom but seriously

and seriously let the guy answer for himself

Yes, actually. And let me tell you why. The day after I make a post I come back to the thread to find us locked into night already. I missed out on the entire wagon, and had I been involved in discussion, he probably would have been gone much sooner.

It is WIFOM, and it's terrible play on your part.

VOTE: Rofl

[VisceraEyes]

The bolded is fluffly language garbage. Out of character? That’s meaningless drivel.

No it isn't. You know it isn't since "Out of character" is a common phrase in life as well as mafia.

What is the point of number 2. Scum of course are going to notice a wagon on their Godfather.

The point is in the line as a whole rather than the first sentence.

Nothing in these responses is anything other than “Well Town wouldn’t do that because I did it and I’m Town” which is circular referencing garbage.

Are you drunk? The reasoning you're to me isn't even circular it's simply nonsense. (Oh I'm playing sermantics by objecting to your pretending an argument is circular when it isn't.)

We can argue the strength of the tell in question (you and others completely ignoring the Presc wagon) all day long. The fact remains that your stance that scum are more likely to be bussing a Day 3 power-lynch on a Godfather is scummy. It doesn’t reflect the realities of how Mafia is played. You argument reads as contrived solely for your own defense as opposed to based on actual scum-hunting theory.

Let's use an analogy:
If bald men are 1/5th less likely to die in a fire than the average AND people in fires are 10 times more likely to die in a fire than average. Then is a bald man in a fire more or less likely to die in a fire than average? If you focus on the bald part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Let's unanalogise it:
If players on the Pres wagon are 1/5th less to be scum than the average AND people with connections to dead scum are 10 times more likely to be scum. Then is a wagonner with a Pres connection more likely to be scum than average? If you focus on the wagon part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Okay Emp this is the kind of play I've been missing from you since I've started on this site.

Now, what's the argument here? You used an analogy to...what, illustrate the logical likelihood that you're not scum? Because you weren't on a scum wagon?

How about this: according to their win-conditions, scum have to lynch

town

in order to win. Therefor, if we assume that scum players are playing with the intention of winning the game (as set forth in the rules) then those

off

the wagon are far

more

likely to flip scum, right?

This was the rationale behind choosing IAI - he was trying to jump off the building Prescending wagon to jump on the freshly started VE wagon...but Presc was hammered before IAI could do it.

I'm with MoI here in that the last scum is going to be found most likely OFF the Prescending wagon. Arguing otherwise is literally arguing that scum aim to play against their win-condition (because unlike town who could be on a town wagon, scum

know

when they're on a scum wagon.) Bussing happens, but we're talking about a D1 Godfather lynch here.

[Empking]

Now, what's the argument here? You used an analogy to...what, illustrate the logical likelihood that you're not scum? Because you weren't on a scum wagon?

No. I used an analogy to dispute the idea that we shouldn't lynch ROFL because he was on the wagon. I'm disputing the idea that MOI implied which was that the strength of the "didn't vote Pres" was irrelevant.

May I ask you for how you got "You used an analogy to...what, illustrate the logical likelihood that you're not scum?" from my post? Explain how my post "If players on the Pres wagon are 1/5th less to be scum than the average" translates, to your mind, as "As I, Empking, was not on the Pres wagon the logical likelihood I must be town."

VE: Your whole idea of your post is that bussing is non-existent the fact that you're forced to admit the self-evident truth that bussing happens and you can still say "Arguing otherwise is literally arguing that scum aim to play against their win-condition" suggests that you've got a hideous set of blinkers.

(Also the fact that you think that Pres was an especially poor bus target is hilarious. The fact that you think that a Godfather that isn't going to be copped (such as the raged against newbie) has notable positive utility is probably an example of the blinkers.)

[VisceraEyes]

You can certainly ask!

I'm not sure what you mean by blinkers, but I assume you're calling me stupid so we're done here.

[Salamence20]

You can certainly ask!

I'm not sure what you mean by blinkers, but I assume you're calling me stupid so we're done here.

VE, reads please

[Empking]

You can certainly ask!

I'm not sure what you mean by blinkers, but I assume you're calling me stupid so we're done here.

By blinkers I mean tunnel tunnelvision. Y'know like every other time the word is used when not referring to horses.

[Salamence20]

Just want to say I am 0-2 in Lylo as town now.

One was my fault and the other was not.

So yeah, not so hot in LyLo.

[VisceraEyes]

You can certainly ask!

I'm not sure what you mean by blinkers, but I assume you're calling me stupid so we're done here.

By blinkers I mean tunnel tunnelvision. Y'know like every other time the word is used when not referring to horses.

Colloquial breakdown. We call them blinders here. :/

[Arugula]

Just want to say I am 0-2 in Lylo as town now.

One was my fault and the other was not.

So yeah, not so hot in LyLo.

Are you trying to get yourself lynched?

[Salamence20]

Just want to say I am 0-2 in Lylo as town now.

One was my fault and the other was not.

So yeah, not so hot in LyLo.

Are you trying to get yourself lynched?

No, that was in response to "Sala should not be allowed to endgame"

[Velazanth]

At this point I can see Sala flipping either way. He's either derpTown or lolScum... Associative tells etc. I'd much prefer Rofl today though.

[Toogeloo]

Just want to say I am 0-2 in Lylo as town now.

One was my fault and the other was not.

So yeah, not so hot in LyLo.

Are you trying to get yourself lynched?

No, that was in response to "Sala should not be allowed to endgame"

He's making the point that you are saying really stupid stuff, I think we understood you were referring to Vel's comment.

@Mod

: requesting prod/replace of Tangion. He hasn't posted since Saturday.

[Salamence20]

Ok, Ill bite.

How is that comment in any way scummy?

[Toogeloo]

I said stupid. It came off like some sort of pity party, and you don't want to be around in case we get to LyLo. And for the record, if you were a member of town and you were alive and lost in LyLo... it's your fault, whether you hammered or not.

[Nocmen]

Prodding Tangion

[McStab]

Just want to say I am 0-2 in Lylo as town now.

One was my fault and the other was not.

So yeah, not so hot in LyLo.

This isn't exactly scummy, but I agree it's damned useless. If jesters were considered normal I'd never lynch you, because you're clearly playing that role.

"Hey guys, I'm pretty bad late game, so you probably shouldn't let me live".

If I didn't think a policy lynch would be a waste of time I'd have my vote on you in a second.

[MagnaofIllusion]

HEY VELANZANTH – WHY ARE YOU IGNORING QUESTIONS?

I put this bold and right at the top so you couldn’t possible miss it. I don’t like being ignored. Answer the following –

We already have 2 Mafia dead and a claimed Vig. Why are you worrying about him making it to endgame (and by this I assume you mean LYLO ) with these facts?

The him in question is of course Sala.

Also …

Yes, actually. And let me tell you why. The day after I make a post I come back to the thread to find us locked into night already. I missed out on the entire wagon, and had I been involved in discussion, he probably would have been gone much sooner.

What is this? Rofl is scum for not asking for a claim (and not extending the day) but had you been on you would have lynched him faster?

Please explain how this isn’t Cognitive Dissonance?

--

Are you trying to get yourself lynched?

Look active lurking fluff! If we do have scum left on the wagon (which would require a bunch of scum IMO) it’s this guy.

--

No it isn't. You know it isn't since "Out of character" is a common phrase in life as well as mafia.

Yes, it is. Whether it is a ‘common phrase’ in real life is meaningless to the discussion. If you could link me to occurences of someone other than you using it here on MS do so because I don’t recall it being common at all.

Finally … it’s fluff since you don’t seem to be demonstrating why it is out of character.

Are you drunk? The reasoning you're to me isn't even circular it's simply nonsense. (Oh I'm playing sermantics by objecting to your pretending an argument is circular when it isn't.)

No, it isn’t. You are stating an opinion that isn’t factual in the context of Mafiascum. I believe the only reason you are doing it is you have to since you yourself ignored the wagon on Presc.

Let's use an analogy:
If bald men are 1/5th less likely to die in a fire than the average AND people in fires are 10 times more likely to die in a fire than average. Then is a bald man in a fire more or less likely to die in a fire than average? If you focus on the bald part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Let's unanalogise it:
If players on the Pres wagon are 1/5th less to be scum than the average AND people with connections to dead scum are 10 times more likely to be scum. Then is a wagonner with a Pres connection more likely to be scum than average? If you focus on the wagon part then less; this gives you an inaccurate answer.

Look, two complete paragraphs of babble. This is meaningless throwing of words. Why are you trying to use concocted analogies? Is it because you know you can’t demonstrate support for your stance?

Go fetch me every Day 1 Godfather lynch you can find on MS. Link them and we can analyze

1. How many were PowerWagons at the start of Day.
2. How many had significant bussing (aka all the non-Godfathers).

This is a pretty simple task. Get to it.

[Salamence20]

I was re-reading the thread, and I saw something that was interesting at least thats what I thought...

VOTE: PMysterious

And right after

Arugula, is your vote legitimate or not? I want a serious answer to this.

No

Congratulations, you officially have moved out of RVS. Thank you for taking your time to do so.

VOTE: PMysterious

Someone explain WTF this is? Arugula said his vote on PM was not Legit, meaning it was RVS, so why does Prescending jump on PM's wagon saying we are getting out of RVS? Is it scumbuddies with Arugula or separating with PM?

I seriously think the reason why Arugula is voting me is.. well, none. There is no in-game relevance for Arugula's vote against me. I really have nothing more to say.

Good reaction, you didn't waste your time trying to explain something that wasn't an issue in the first place.

UNVOTE:

Maybe no one read how this is still RVS? Something about this bugs me, and I am thinking PM may be with the mafia.

Replace out then. My follow up statement was clear, and you are retarded if it gave you a headache. Mcqueen doesn't suck and neither does this game. You do though, for having an attitude like that.

I really can't see scum saying that. Maybe more experienced players can tell me otherwise, but for now, I really can't see Arugula as scum, but my read on her is null/town.

unvote, vote: salamence

to the moon

!

VOTE: roflcopter

This sucks. Mcqueen sucks. This game sucks. Arugula's follow-up statement about PM literally gave me a headache. Step up your game or I'll replace out.

Bullshit separation at best. I don't understand the bolded, and I see this as a counter wagon against Prescending.

vote: Velazanth

for no reason

and wile I'm at it,

V/LA for indeterminate time (my computer is having charger problems -.-)

While I know this is RVS and all, I kinda find it hard to believe that this is completely random. I just don't know why this bugs me. TF, have you played with Velazanth before?

I'm waiting for Prescending's response before I move my vote.

I don't like this because I bet Prescending wouldn't of answered anyways since last time he said that Arugula was giving him a headache. Plus, did you think PM was more scummy than Prescending at the moment?

So you are saying I provided a good reason for your lynch? I agree.

Also, if/when Salamence flips scum, MoI is conftown.

This scares me. And I don't know why. I am trying to think what happens when I flip town.

page three hammer on the godfather, one for the record books

17 player game, 2 scum down, most likely 2 scum left. i'm calling salamence and empking right now, with more certainty on empking. he entirely ignored the already burgeoning prescending wagon on his entry to the game yesterday and instead spent his time undermining other people's townreads and uselessly sparring with now confirmed town ve. his vote on me looks like it was preplanned overnight.
there are good reasons to think sal is scum (including pres chainsaw defending him by voting me for my vote on him) but he also kept his vote on and called for a pres lynch at l-1 when he could have just as easily derailed the wagon, thus my higher certainty on emp.

vote: empking

will switch to sal if its the will of the mob

viscera, nhammen and mcqueen should basically be considered confirmed town. moi too if sal flips scum.

@emp, what about his interaction with me don't you like, specifically, and what about the vc is eyebrow raising, specifically.

I really really want a lynch on ROFL today. If he is scum, I am willing to bet Empking is town. ROFL also mentions the chainsaw defense I believe to be separating between the two.

More later

[Tangion]

I still wanna see rofl hang I dont have any other strong reads

[Salamence20]

Whats your current reads on me, empking, TF, and Arugula?