Mini 342-Mlakerville-Game Over

[Twito]

Alive:
Patrick = very scummy
dahen = very scummy
chef855 (B Rob) = scummy but not that last post was better
wolfsbane = neutral
davidangelsummers = neutral
cpol = scummy
Primate = neutral
PBuG = neutral
Twito = protown
kristocker = scummy

WE HAVE TOO MANY SCUMMMY PPL IN THIS GAME!
Atm I'm suspecting 5 guys to be scum and the truth is that's not possible.

I think I've listed reasons for every scummy I listed above before.

[TBuG]

SCUMMY:

das
dahen
Twito

[dahen]

Well, since Twito also wants me to claim, we have the following people pushing for my claim:

cpol
Patrick
(kristocker didn't ask me to claim, but almost hammered me becuase of that)
Primate
Twito

wolfie and RBob has posted recently but has not asked for my claim.
PBuG - well, I don't count that as posting.

Since this town seems to follow the prinicple of always-claim, I will.

claim

: I am innocent with no special abilites (vanilla townie).

See for instance this debate regarding when to claim:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3643

You could read RBob's opinion almost at the top.

Since I hope and think I will live until tomorrow, I don't like screaming out: "I'm not the doctor." I believe that doc's and townies are better off not claiming. Cops and vigs etc. should claim. This applies only to unthemed games, of course. But I would never go against the wish of a town majority.

[cpol]

Wow Twito that list is well off

Alive:
Patrick = NOT very scummy
dahen = very scummy BUT MOST LIKLEY NOT
chef855 (B Rob) = scummy but not that last post was NOT REALLY ANY better
wolfsbane = SCUMMY
davidangelsummers = neutral
Primate = neutral VERGING ON SCUMMY
PBuG = SCUMMY (seriously why still only the small posts? Its not like there is nothing to talk about)
Twito = SCUMMY THOUGH I SUSPECT PRO-TOWN
kristocker = VERY scummy

BRob, Wolfsbane and Kristocker top my list atm.

Patrick: The first post you quoted was just stating a fact that that could be the reason why.

The second post. Pretty much throughout Ive thought dahen was innocent and have said so many times. Also you say Im switching attention to PBuG and BRob when my vote was allready on PBuG

Around the claim I was unsure because of the lack of a claim but still held off heavy suspicion.

You then say I was trying to urge people to lynch Dahen. How?? To me it seems like I was the only one trying to stop the lynch.

[davidangelsummers]

My thoughts on Dahen
Dahen=Very scummy but Im worried. In any other game I think he would have been lynched by now. Its very strange. He is a claimed Townie who is acting scummy. Are we not lynching him because hes Town and we have bad scum(as in I think well playing scum would of had his balls nailed to the wall) or because he is scum and we have good scum?(As in they have saved him from the lynch)

As for Cpol,
I have to say for a tired man Patrick makes a lot of good points about Cpol..
Also the fact that Cpol says Patrick(im not saying your scum), Dahen and him self are Not likely to be scum and that (Looking from a Netrual point of view here) I am Neutral. Thats 4 players in the lime light today and not one scum? Even though I am town (and im likely too say this..I know) I would find this a hard pill to swallow.
I think its a little wierd..
Bring on the critism

Pbug....Im going to check but I think I have played with you a couple of times before(+the other game we are in) ..you always think im scum..
Something you want to tell me...Might be getting you mixed up with a Pig,pugor pugs...Just want to check

[dahen]

I didn't think that dahen's actions day one were very suspicious.

Ok

But I'm concerned with this post.

Be as concerned as you like. But are you saying that this post alone made you decide to hammer me? After all the discussion we have had---that post?

He "claims" was a role with no flavor

Yes. I believe this to be a non-flavored game.

so I don't understand how giving a townie claim will give more information to the scum than the town.

It's ok by me if you don't understand. But voting me in this situation because you don't understand?
What about thinking for yourself?
Asking me?
Reading the discussion I linked?
Asking the rest of the town?
It's not hard to come up with cases where a non-flavoured townie claim is not beneficial to town. The hard question is what to do as standard practise. I don't get the feeling that you have thought this through at all.

Claiming townie gives the scum more changes of picking a power role, but claiming a role with no flavor is essentially the same thing.

No, it's not. I don't believe any of us having flavor, so how can claiming "no flavor" be the essentially the same as claiming "townie"?

This really feels like a scum blindly claiming something in order to not get lynched.

You don't understand my reasoning, so I am scum? Ok. I wasn't suspicous day one. Now I am. Do you base that only on us having different views on when to claim? Who did you think was suspicious day one that are no longer suspicious and why?

I don't believe it.

Exactly what do you not believe?
That my reasoning is valid?
That my decision not to claim was for the best of the town?
That I am an innocent townsperson?

I believe that you thought your post was a hammer.
I believe that your vote was the least thought-trough for a long time in this game.

unvote, vote: dahen.

unvote, vote: Kristocker

I'm still eager to hear from Primate, though. Primate-Kristocker is now my favourite mafia team.

[dahen]

Dahen=Very scummy but Im worried. In any other game I think he would have been lynched by now. Its very strange. He is a claimed Townie who is acting scummy. Are we not lynching him because hes Town and we have bad scum(as in I think well playing scum would of had his balls nailed to the wall) or because he is scum and we have good scum?(As in they have saved him from the lynch)

This is what I believe:
Primate made some heavy argumentaion against me day two. He has then gone silent. He can't do much more to push for my lynch. His mafia companion wanted for the rest of the town to do much of the discussion, so she didn't do much. First when she was sure enough about a lynch, she decided to put on her vote.
Why didn't she wait for Primate's post? Well, I think they are mafia together, and then it's clear.

Kristocker has made a total of 15 posts in this game.
I suggest you read those. It doesn't take long.
Day one, she voted, then excused herself for the random vote, then supported me with a post or two and put pressure on monsieurchouette.
Day two, she has done nothing but asking for lurkers to be replaced or voted off.

Voting for lurkers is a common mafia technique since it can be backed up and doesn't require any thought or reasoning.

[Primate]

PBPA OF DAHEN
#8 - Random Vote

#19 - 'Let's make it a clean game guys, good luck to all!'

#25 - Adds a 4th vote to DAS to create pressure.

#27 - This is a very important post.

Wasn't it obvious that I intended to create pressure? That's why I voted for the guy with the most votes. The reason I called it ranomish is that it looks like the first vote(s) was random, meaning that there are no particular reasons to suspect you. However, I don't see a particular reason to suspect anybody yet, so I hope this will create some discussion. At least you are questioning me, which I like.

Also, I don't know if there is some silent agreement that my behavior is wrong and you need to have better proof in order to put someone at three from lynch.

In this post, he states that the purpose of the pressure vote was not to put pressure on the people around the wagon, but more specifically to put pressure on DAS himself, something inferred by the fact he's happy that DAS is questioning his reasons. This shows a misunderstanding of the way pressure voting works. From that thought, if he is unaware of the complexity of vote placement in pressure voting, why would he do it as town? There are two primary excuses in this case. He is a newb, or he is scum. Both are valid and both are understandable. Another thing I noted is that he may possibly be aping my behaviour, subscribing a vote to pressure in simply in order to bandwagon. He just seemed a little too eager to use pressure as a clinging post in order to exonerate himself. This post was the one that originally made me very suspicious of him.

#69 - Apoligises for holiday.

#72 - States that he forgot this game began in night. I've seen scum think this just as much as town do, so take it as a tell if you wish, but I don't. I know he was in a hurry, but his defence just seemed inadaquate considering the pressure he was under.

#120 - Comes back from lurking, and immediately disregards the fact that he was No 1. suspect all through day 1, and says that he's ready to start a case against someone else. Buddies up to Patrick, why?

#142 - Reacts to my over-aggressiveness with omgus suspicion for an inferior reason, attacking my behaviour, not my points. This is one of his scummiest posts, IMHO.

*fuck it*
<Lots>

*sigh* Long story short, after doing this re-read of everything since I last posted, I'm nowhere near as sure as I once was. The beginning of the PBPA was more to explain my own actions than to incriminate Dahen, which I don't really feel like doing anymore. There's a lot of scummy stuff in there, but he just seems a bit to relaxed for me really peg him as scum. I'm finding myself agreeing with him in a lot of stuff he's saying. In fact, I think he could very likely be town. On the other hand, we've been chasing him down for two days. He still could be the best lynch. This entire game so far has been people weaving in out of suspicion about Dahen. We have had two tenable counter-wagons against the Dahen flow in MC and DAS. If we don't lynch him today, he'll simply be number one suspect tomorrow and take up even more of our time. His alignment would be the juiciest info we could inject into this game. As B Rob pointed out, my alignment is is tied to Dahen's, in a way, and I'm happy to lynch him with this in mind. I may have a better target though. Give me an hour or so to get a case together.

Lists seem to be in vogue atm and they're not exactly hard to do, so here's mine.

Patrick - likely town
dahen - likely scum
chef855 (B Rob) - undecided
wolfsbane - scummy
davidangelsummers - likely town
cpol - likely town
Primate - well yar
PBuG - undecided
Twito - likely town
kristocker - scummy

I've been with Cpol as scum before, and unless he's seriously changed his playstyle, I think it's different enough from his normal one for me to recognise it. He's not scum.

I fully expect to be raked over the coals for changing my mind at this point.

[Patrick]

Just so I can be cool:

Patrick: town
Twito: Scummy, but could easily be town
DAS: Less scummy than before
Kristocker: Pretty scummy
Wolfsbane: slightly scummy
Primate: townish
PBug: slightly scummy
Dahen: rather scummy
BRob: Don't really know yet
cpol: fairly scummy.

I wasn't very convinced by cpols reply. As far as I can see he changed his stance on dahen several times within a very short space of time. Cpol spent a while saying dahens lack of role claim was worrying, then he changed his mind saying dahen is likely town, before dahen made his role claim.

Primate, could you link me to that game where you and cpol are scum? Cheers.

[TBuG]

Patrick: Neutral
Twito: Scummy
DAS: Scummy
Kristocker: Slightly scummy
Wolfsbane: Unsure
Primate: Town
PBug: This dude has to Mafia. Seriously, lynch him NOW.
Dahen: Scummy, but not very
BRob: Neutral
cpol: Slightly scummy

There. I'm cool too. We all seem to have different views on everyone XD

[cpol]

Patrick = very scummy, NOT very scummy, likely town, Neutral
dahen = very scummy, very scummy BUT MOST LIKLEY NOT, likely scum, rather scummy, Scummy, but not very
chef855 (B Rob) = scummy but not that last post was better, scummy but not that last post was NOT REALLY ANY better, undecided, Don't really know yet, Neutral
wolfsbane = neutral, SCUMMY, scummy,slightly scummy, Unsure
davidangelsummers = neutral,neutral,likely town,Less scummy than before ,Scummy
cpol = scummy,likely town,fairly scummy,Slightly scummy
Primate = neutral,neutral VERGING ON SCUMMY,townish, Town
PBuG = neutral, SCUMMY, undecided, slightly scummy,
Twito = SCUMMY THOUGH I SUSPECT PRO-TOWN ,likely town , Scummy, but could easily be town ,Scummy, Slightly scummy
kristocker = scummy,VERY scummy, scummy, Pretty scummy

Just putting all the lists together so we can see where opinions meet and differ. Most people so far have Kristocker as scummy, Primate, Patrick and DAS as town and are unsure on BRob. There are mixed opinions on me, Dahen, Wolfsbane and PBuG. Twito is odd as most people say scummy but pro-town lol.

@Patrick: So far on all the sites I play mafia on I have finished one game, so I would prefer it if Priamte DIDN'T post a thread where I am I also don't know where u think I was changing opinions on Dahen really. I was mildly concernd about his lack of claim, and as I have never encounted that stronger reaction before didn't know what to do. I have been pretty convinced however that he has been town throughtout.

Also I have already said that I didn't believe that Dahen, DAS or Patrick were scum a while ago. None of you ever did to me, but it was a perfect opportunity for scum to let you fight among yourselfs, which is what happend.

Anyway I now believe that a

Unvote PBuG, vote Kristocker

is in order.

[Patrick]

Alright then cpol. Maybe you need to read my post again where I quoted you several times. You claim to have though dahen was town throughout. Your own post 276:

Im stuck here, there are two situation.

1) Dahen is scum and can't come up with a proper claim.
2) He really is town and just doesn't give away his role.

To me option 1 at this point seems the most believeable however I feel that if he were scum he would be trying to come up with something plauseable to avoid the lynch.

Clearly

saying that you thought dahen was more likely scum then town. You say that what made you slightly worried was the lack of claim. Yet you changed your stance saying dahen was town BEFORE dahen decided to play ball and claim. I don't like these contradictions.

I don't get your reason for not showing me a game where you were scum with Primate, I assume it was on another site. Primate is using that game to say that he doesn't think you're scum. It would be kind of easier to judge for ourselves if we could view that game. What are you scared of?

Also I have already said that I didn't believe that Dahen, DAS or Patrick were scum a while ago. None of you ever did to me, but it was a perfect opportunity for scum to let you fight among yourselfs, which is what happend.

Not sure what you are getting at with this.

[Primate]

I don't get your reason for not showing me a game where you were scum with Primate, I assume it was on another site. Primate is using that game to say that he doesn't think you're scum. It would be kind of easier to judge for ourselves if we could view that game. What are you scared of?

End this conversation now please. I mean like really end it. As in, never mention it again. I should never have brought it up.

[Patrick]

[B Rob]

Did that will the mood? Do we need a change of subject?

Vote: cpol

Will post reasons tomorrow because it's late and I'm tired.

[B Rob]

will = kill

Damnit...

[wolfsbane]

Patrick seems to be trying to manipulate the town more than necessary if he is town.
Dahen does scummy stuff, but I get the gut feeling that he isn't scum. He still may be the best lynch for today because it tells us a lot about Patrick and Primate.

[dahen]

Haha. How many people have now said that I am acting scummy but that they have a feeling that I am not?

Still no-one has answered my question if they thought they had a good view on who to hang tomorrow, if (when) I turn up town. Wolfsbane at least says that it tells a lot about Patrick and Primate. Does it? What does it say about others?

I can accept to die for the town if that will give you good information, but I won't do it happily if you would be just as confused tomorrow. I think it's scummy to say that I'm a good lynch although I'm probably town unless it's backed by good reasoning.

[Patrick]

Ok. I don't understand wtf Primate's last post was about. But I'll do as he wants and disregard it.

Wolfsbane is amusing. He keeps coming up with vague accusations of me like 'Patrick is manipulating the town more than he should' Where am I manipulating the town wolfsbane? And once again, why am I scum if dahen is town. I really want to see where you get that from.

To answer dahens last post, I think I know where Primate is coming from in his views about you. If you turn up town, I will be suspicious of cpol and Kristocker tomorrow. Cpol because of his changing stance towards you in a very short space of time. Kristocker has done two things that caught my eye, firstly trying to get chef lynched which is at the very least advocating bad play. Secondly she has been saying that she isn't convinced by the dahen wagon, then in post 278 she pops up and nudges it along. Ok I admit I didn't like dahen not claiming, but having read the discussion in the mafia discussion forum, I've realised that claiming in this situation isn't so widely used as I thought. Kristocker just seemed to be looking for an excuse to pop a vote on dahen.
Wolfsbane is also creeping in there for using very vague reasons to accuse me and possibly setting up a false dilemna between me and dahen.

[davidangelsummers]

Wolfbane said:
Patrick seems to be trying to manipulate the town more than necessary if he is town.

Patrick
Wolfsbane is amusing. He keeps coming up with vague accusations of me like 'Patrick is manipulating the town more than he should' Where am I manipulating the town wolfsbane?

Dont take this the wrong way Patrick as Im starting to like your style rather then loath it..I think you might be coming across as I dont care who we lynch as long its the guy I want to lynch. Im not saying its bad because im not going through thesame old crap again. You have got disscussion going but we DO need to progress.
Every time we all look like argeeing someone goes off the radar. This can no longer be accepted. *Looks at kristocker* Lets all agree on some thing at least.
Anyone got any short sweet ideas that any town would agree on?

[Patrick]

I don't get it. By definition everyone wants to lynch the player 'they want to lynch'. I didn't know I had a playstyle. lol

I still want to hear from wolfsbane.

[wolfsbane]

Actually wolfsbane that was sudden. For the past few pages you haven't said too much, but most of the time you've been saying dahen is scummy/scummiest/good lynch. Now you suddenly say i'm scummier than him. I'm asking why.

You're suspicious of me because I came to his defence early day 1? So if he turns up town, how does that make me especially suspicious? Are you mafia trying to setup a mislynch tomorrow?

It is so surpising that I could consider you scummy? Some people are listing five people as scummy. It is a very vague thing and changes by the minute because it seems like you are posting more than the rest of the town put together. So, my opinion of you is unsure to somewhat scummy.
Dahen is outright scummy - almost too scummy to be true. Around the claim his posts seem less scummy and more understandable, but I really dislike his recent post starting with haha. I'm starting to wish I had left my vote on. I just didn't want a hammer before I heard from Primate. If we let dahen off today he is just going to bog are discussion down tomorrow, I think we should just shelf these other suspicions and get rid of dahen.

Vote: dahen

So, my scummy list: Dahen, BRob, and maybe Patrick.

[dahen]

Well, that's it I guess. One of the most interesting starts I've seen in a game. Too bad I couldn't follow you to the end, but I would be surprised if town didn't win this. Go town!

[TBuG]

Wait,

what

?

MAJOR FOS: WOLFSBANE

[wolfsbane]

That's 5 votes, with 10 alive we need 6 to lynch, right?