A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Dolorous Edd]

Edd, give an example of a post where it feels like they're "sniping from the sidelines."

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to discuss my impressions yet with Pless, so this content is 100% Zar. I'm agreeing with Regfan on Molla looking townish, especially based on his early entrance.

Dolorous Edd is a Hydra composed of two Westerosi players known to be somewhat batshit, so the explosion of chaotic reasoning coming from them does not seem scummy to me. Especially after just reading #73 and realizing all of the content has been coming from Arthur.

Regfan's contribution to the discussion feels more likely to come from a town mindset. While logical =/= town, Regfan's post does seem contrived or grasping for things that aren't there.

@shadoweh: As much as I'm annoyed at SB for doing what she did, her logic doesn't really strike me as coming from scum. Sure, I get the 1 - 1 trade-off that has been explained in thread, but I empathize on how a town-aligned player would think this could be a idea, as it was also my reaction when it was proposed.


~Zar.

While on the subject – what is your read on Minimum and why is it that?

Hmm. Our take on Minimum is a bit confused. I can't read CES at all, personally. But Zar tells me that he thinks CES fits his scum-meta better than his town-meta at the moment. In particular, Zar doesn't like Minimum's #21, which he reads as an attempt to sound helpful while giving bad advice (the sort of people you'd policy lynch aren't really the sort of people to trust with a free vig-kill, so the idea to make the choosing a policy-lynch seems backwards). We'd both have a better take on that slot if Mina was posting more. We think.

(Lyanna, I think it was us who speculated that Minimum was mostly/entirely CES. Mina was pretty good at signing her posts when she was a hydra in SOS -- plus, of course, Minimum's posts so far have been pretty short...).

No, I haven't read any games modded by Eddard Stark.

Oh. You should? Or skim them, maybe. A lot of the people in this game were in one or more of them, so it might give you a good read on people you've not seen before. Plus they're quite fun to read?

~ Pless

SnowStorm's vote for Benmage would have seemed odder, to me, if he then claimed to have read some of the previous games.

Why?

I don't really think you're asking me this because you want to hear an answer, for some reason . But if you really do need it spelled out, then: SnowStorm comes from a site where policy lynches are frowned on (or at least nobody admits to pushing them). This would make his vote for Benmage somewhat understandable, given the post he responds to. If he'd claimed to have read previous games, however, he would presumably know not to be surprised by it (and that first post would be harder for him to justify).

CES? you're giving me a headache...don't give me a headache. I took your answer as the first person to post as Mina serious, but your answer that all of your responses were you as a joke.

The idea was it would be perceived as a package deal since the joke clearly relied on me immediately contradicting myself. Doesn't work as well as I imagined in hindsight.

I got it. It was

annoying and unhelpful

very droll.

@Dolorous Edd

: I don't understand where your votes are coming from.

[...]

I'd like to know your own thoughts on the people you underlined in 212 also. What category would you put them in?

Oh, yeah, this. Edd, why did you ask Benmage to explain some of his reads like this and then completely fail to follow up on his answer? Did you just pick some names to underline at random so you could be seen to be active and scumhunting and stuff?

Get Alek to answer that, if you can, he's a better liar than you.

(Oh, and good luck with your move to college .)

~ Pless

I have a growing pool of strong town reads right now, very confident that on top of Pandora, Tyene and Ed [...]

We're a bit confused about why you have a strong town-read on Tyene . You seem to have decided on this pretty quickly; have recent posts reinforced this impression, or was your initial town-read just that strong to begin with?

(Also, Hyperion is GreatJim on the Westeros site, right? Don't really understand the meta-based scum read on him, if that's the case.)

I tottally agree with Zar though I am batshit, but don't listen to plessie i am a very bad liar

I never suggested you were a good liar, only that you were better at it than Arthur ...

(But that was mostly an attempt to goad you into posting, of course.)

Oh Alek. You're not really doing anything for the town read I gave to Arthur.

This was my gut reaction also.

Aaand the major hydra dissonance just showed that Edd is (are?) town (again).

Can't say I agree with this. The hydra dissonance displayed by Pandora earlier seemed very natural; that's a town-tell, sure. But the Alek/Arthur dissonance? Meh.

It would also be nice if hydra were to sign their posts.

I assume that Edd's most recent post is Arthur again?

~ Pless

[Dolorous Edd]

Why would anyone suspect this to be multiball? The last Game of Thrones mafia wasn't. Scumslips are still stupid and never work, the people most likely to mention the dreaded M-Word first seem to be town not worried about tripping the wire. I consider this a double lynch that gives the second suspect a vengekill.

Vote: Dolorous Edd

Choose: Minimum

PS: Maybe he wanted it secret when he was just alting but I had no intention of being a secret hydra. SORRY QUILLY. He was like hey we never do anything together anymore wanna hydra and I was like okay and he was like how about this game of thrones game and I was like but Tierce isn't in it and then it turned out she was in it so Yay! The end. I will not remember to sign posts but I like to think I'm distinctive right?

@ Plezz/Zar

This is the post that makies me uneasy...

His first post in the game he come right out and attacks arthur over the multiball issue...

His first paragraph feels forced and defenisve, even though he wasn't even being attacked..Also notice the use of "Scum slips are useless and never work?"

I have seen them work before and I believe as scum they would want to push that idea so people would be less confidant..

But if scum slips don;t work, How do town slips work? it is a two way street, I don;t see how you can have one without the other..

Nut this whole post felt off too me

[Dolorous Edd]

Plssie/Zar, obviously you short term memory is wacky has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

[Dolorous Edd]

>.<

these posts are from Alek btw if you didn;t already know

[Eddard Stark]

Unicorns are large goat-like animals, with a long single horn on its head. They are believed to live on Skagos.

Day 1, Votecount 17

MagnaofIllusion (1) - Shadow1psc
Starbuck (2) - Feysal, redFF
SnowStorm (3) - Plessiezarus, Regfan, Tyene Sand

Minimum (6) - MagnaofIllusion, Salamence20, Hasdgfas, Lyanna Stark, StefanB, Benmage

Benmage (1) - SnowStorm
Salamence20 (2) - Amrun, Minimum
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
BBmolla (1) - Hyperion
Dolorous Edd (1) - Jal
Tyene Sand (1) Mastermind of Sin
Hyperion (5) - Pandora, BBmolla, Staeg, Plum's Yo Mamma, Dolorous Edd

Not Voting (4):

Mockingjaye, Petyr Baelish, Bvoigt, sword_of_omens

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 3rd September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-03 18:59:59)
  
• redFF is V/la until Friday.

CHOOSE YOUR OWN DESTINY

MagnaofIllusion (1) - MagnaofIllusion
Tyene Sand (2) - Feysal, Mastermind of Sin
Dolorous Edd (2) - hasdgfas, Hyperion

Feysal (3) - Dolorous Edd, Salamence20, Pandora

Hasdgfas (1) - Shadow1psc

Minimum (3) - Regfan, Tyene Sand, Plum's Yo Mamma

Starbuck (2) - Starbuck, Staeg
redFF (2) - Benmage, Minimum
Shadow1psc (2) - BBmolla, StefanB

Not Choosing (10):

Lyanna Stark, Mockingjaye, Petyr Baelish, redFF, Amrun, Bvoigt, Plessiezarus, SnowStorm, Jal, Sword_of_omens

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'.

[Pandora]

Stop calling me a dude damnit.
I can tell you're not Arthur because he'd at least remember I was a pink lover. :V
It doesn't sit right when you spend one post talking about how the dinosaur is sniping then spend the next one trying to sell them your suspect.

I like how Hyperion came back to tell us he was going on vacation. Is a week really an okay amount of time to V/LA here? :s It's kind of important that he be around to answer to suspicion.

Sorry dood but this assassin choice is going nowhere and you're asleep anyways. B)

Unchoose

Choose: redFF

- Invisible Hydrahead

[MagnaofIllusion]

So I haven't gotten a full re-read since my last post in today but why has Dol Edd responded to multiple other players but not my questions?

[Starbuck]

Fell behind due to some craziness around here over the past few days. Will be catching up when I get home from class tonight.

[SnowStorm]

Snow, see the thing you did jump in to discuss was fairly useless and saying 'there were more useless things I could have talked about!' doesn't change the fact that it doesn't come across as a natural entrance into the game. And I would have preferred that you came in joking and roleplaying for a post, it would have shown that you weren't worried about peoples opinions of you but the fact that you're stating that you avoiding doing so since it draws attention to you makes it look as if you're scum that thought they could slide into the game and go unnoticed.

You're just wrong. I'm not going to argue about the usefulness or relevance of what I discussed in my first post. First, it's subjective, we don't all pick on the same things, we don't all suspect the same people, so there's some things that I find relevant that you and other people don't, but that someone else may. Second, it's easy to say something was useless after we see that it didn't take us anywhere...

I didn't say I avoided RP'ing to not draw attention to myself and it was never my intention to slip by unnoticed. I figured it was more likely that someone would jump on me for not saying anything useful... So yeah, I worry with what people think of me, are scum the only ones who do that? I'm used to having people suspect me for misinterpreting me, so I usually try not to do or say anything that might lead to misinterpretation and unnecessary suspicion.

I think you're giving too much importance to things that don't really tell you my alignment.

[SnowStorm]

Hmm...this is the only post you have made today and I don't like your response. I didn't pick up on this only for you keeping your vote on Ben. I've done a similar thing a ton of times. I've voted someone and decided they're town but not unvoted them. I don't think it's inherently scummy, but when I've done it I've usually made an announcement that that is what I have done and that I will move it when I decide who it's going to go onto if I for whatever reason don't unvote (but that's usually when we're nearing deadline and I'm actively searching for someone to vote instead.)

And, this is the problem I'm having is that you're not actively looking for suspects; you're not actively engaging with anyone in the game really. You picked up on the Ben issue and I have no problem with that, but that is pretty much all you have done other than discuss theory. And then you gave a few townish reads and said that there was pretty no scum reads, basically you nulled everyone. The manner in which you gave your reads was rather stilted as well. All of this made me suspicious. If it were just the vote, and you were being active in the game, I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

I don't know why you wouldn't expect the reaction you got from me. You've seen me point out things that I don't like and question people about things numerous times before.

I had called him town, I don't see any other reason why anyone (town or scum) would keep their vote on a town read. Like you said, you do that announcement when we're close to deadline when it is actually suspicious, but with so many days left I didn't think there was a need to do that, it was already implicit. It will be more suspicious however, if I stay with my vote on him when we get close to the lynch, though I think it would be only really suspicious if he was the lynch and I kept the town read on him.

This is the kind of post I usually expect from you:

I'm reading SnowStorm as scum, but I want to interject here a bit because it makes sense to me why he wouldn't. At Westeros, we always play behind alts. There are very very few times we play altless. We also have quite strict meta rules. We can't out another person's alt or our own. Sure, we have codes and things to get around some of the rules when we have meta reasons for why we read people the way we do, but we can't use that as part of our cases or arguments at all. You know how people go, "In GvE, you behaved this way, so I believe xyz here?" We can't do that there. So, because we are accustomed to play without meta - and our hilariously bad altguesses of each other has hindered games in the past - it makes perfect sense why SnowStorm wouldn't want to read any past games to get an unobjective PoV because that's how we're conditioned to play this game.

You still say you think I'm scummy, but you also "defend" me. You can tell the difference between our (not just mine but the other Westero's players') alignment and personality tells and you're the first to defend us if someone gets their tells wrong.

I'm feeling much better about you now. (...This is a town read.)

[MagnaofIllusion]

It appears that the Town as a whole has no taste for arming my right hand with lightning ...

Unchoose MoI
Choose Shadow

[Staeg]

You still say you think I'm scummy, but you also "defend" me. You can tell the difference between our (not just mine but the other Westero's players') alignment and personality tells and you're the first to defend us if someone gets their tells wrong.

Any commentary on my reply to this?

[Dolorous Edd]

It doesn't sit right when you spend one post talking about how the dinosaur is sniping then spend the next one trying to sell them your suspect.

The first was me talking about how PlessZar are scum, the other was Alek.

So I haven't gotten a full re-read since my last post in today but why has Dol Edd responded to multiple other players but not my questions?

What were your questions again?

Fell behind due to some craziness around here over the past few days. Will be catching up when I get home from class tonight.

Starbuck

- You said first (before you picked yourself), that you would rather the Choice vig go in the hands of a VT. How did you expect to determine a person who is VT?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@BBMolla

– in regards to your – congratulations you’ve made a case that Sala is a terrible player. Which is not alignment related. Sala is the weakest player in this thread so that being the basis for your vote then isn’t very convincing. In fact that tone and snarkiness you are exhibiting upon being asked for your reasons actually puts you in my scum-pool. I’ve seen Town BBMolla be called out before. His responses were a world removed from what I’m seeing out of you (insult and undermine).

@Mina

– perhaps if I feel motivated I’ll respond to your recent posts explaining your motivations in self-Choosing. No promises thought as your hydra’s combined opinion of me and my play doesn’t really matter much to me personally and I don’t think it will serve much use to others in thread.

Shadow1 is worth rope / Choosing simply for his play – active lurking with no scum-hunting followed up by MD style discussion when called out for being scummy.

I’d also consider a wagon on Bvoigt for Post 451 as it looks very much like the “Stall out commenting on anything of recent vintage to look active while not being held accountable for being up-to-speed” style posting scum love to use to active-lurk along. Nothing in that post is meaningful (he asks questions about comments on Page 1 which have long been settled, takes three positions that have been more or less long settled and convienently falls on the right side in each, and makes a throwaway fence-sit on a post of mine).

--

MoI and Cow, is your scum reads or desire for Shadow to die because you're confident in him being scum or because you think he's useless and a good policyish based lynch or shot because I just re-read everything of his and it actually comes across as very town (Though fairly sure MoI won't agree with the reasoning behind it), his lack of care about the image he was putting forward of himself in his earlier posts is a decent town-tell and matches his town meta whereas his play in Kdubs game where he was mafia was relatively different.

I’ve already elaborated but you are correct – I disagree with your reasons for reading him as Town. I honestly think if Cow and I hadn’t put his active lurking fluffery in the spotlight he’d have been happy to coast along under the radar (like MoS for example). Also on gut and past experience his play very much strikes me as Scum-Shadow.

--

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I do not buy this excuse at all, especially coming from what I assume is CES. It’s frankly bullshit given his style of play.

--

I have been told that two games isn't enough to prove meta between two players.

And again, the point is, that CES and I haven't even played a full game together, just Lylo, so I don't think that is enough for CES to get suspicious.

Am I wrong?

Just let me say I am in a quandary because your statement here is in conflict with play I have seen from Sala in the past.

@Sala

– do you have any completed games where you can demonstrate use of the “Town / Scum” list similar to the one you posted in Post 433?

[Dolorous Edd]

Overwhelmed by the pace.

I do not buy this excuse at all, especially coming from what I assume is CES. It’s frankly bullshit given his style of play.

Umm, I think this needs clarification, because at least 3 different people already misinterpreted it.

Tammy mentioned that in a Wheel of Time themed Westeros game, he was being lazy, etc.

He said he wasn't, that he was overwhelmed by the pace of that game.

I think it's pretty clear from the conversation <_<

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

Yeah, Reck is pretty uncool (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.

Overwhelmed? I'm not following. It's not like you're new to the game.

Overwhelmed by the pace.

[Salamence20]

@MoI: Umm, no, not unfinished. I do have a certain game you should be very familiar of where I did use the list.

Why does this matter?

[Salamence20]

I would also like a full explanation on why that statement is soooo not sala.

[Eddard Stark]

Prodding Mockingjaye

[Shadow1psc]

@MoI

– perhaps if I feel motivated I’ll respond to your recent posts explaining your motivations in self-Choosing. No promises thought as your opinion of me and my play doesn’t really matter much to me personally and I don’t think it will serve much use to others in thread.

[SnowStorm]

You still say you think I'm scummy, but you also "defend" me. You can tell the difference between our (not just mine but the other Westero's players') alignment and personality tells and you're the first to defend us if someone gets their tells wrong.

Any commentary on my reply to this?

As Tammy said, we use alts in Westeros. We're not supposed to base our reads on meta. But this is not Westeros and it seems like here meta is the base of everything. So, I'm going to use meta to judge the players I know, not only because of that, but because I can't ignore it. As for the other players I don't think reading past games would help much. This is a different game and people don't always play the same way. I prefer judging the rest of the players based on things that happen in this game.

I think this also explains why I haven't "contributed" much and my lack of suspects. I don't think there's a single subject that hasn't been touched by meta and I can't evaluate anything that is related to meta from a player I'm not familiar with.

[Plessiezarus]

Plssie/Zar, obviously you short term memory is wacky has I just played a game with Regfan in Westeros so yes IU have and I believe his confidence here is different then then..

Defintly feels genuine and town too me so far..

I got too go so I will finish reading later

I asked you if you had read any

other

games, since you seem to sound so convinced of your "meta goodness" on Regfan. Given that you were one of Regfan's converters to Mafia in the Fringe game, it should have been evident to you that the meta you're using could be used to analyze how Regfan acts according to

either

alignment.

~ Zar.

[BBmolla]

@BBMolla – in regards to your – congratulations you’ve made a case that Sala is a terrible player. Which is not alignment related. Sala is the weakest player in this thread so that being the basis for your vote then isn’t very convincing. In fact that tone and snarkiness you are exhibiting upon being asked for your reasons actually puts you in my scum-pool. I’ve seen Town BBMolla be called out before. His responses were a world removed from what I’m seeing out of you (insult and undermine).

Didn't you insult me or something? I don't remember.

Anywho, cite your sources boy, I don't really know what you're referring to here.

[Plessiezarus]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hyperion

As far as I can tell, this is the first thing you've had to say about Hyperion all game. Care to explain your vote?

Pless is always more of an attacker as town

With the confidence you say this, I almost forget that you've only seen me play three games . (I also don't think I was much of "an attacker" in the First Law game -- my memory of that game is largely of me posting a couple of (incorrect) town reads, arguing about theory with people, and then being killed at night because the healer/doc decided to ignore the fact I kept posting "heal me" in large, friendly letters.)

Nah, Pless. People can draw their own conclusions on Plum.

I know what I think about Plum. I wanted to know what

you

think about Plum. I still do?

I think this also explains why I haven't "contributed" much and my lack of suspects. I don't think there's a single subject that hasn't been touched by meta and I can't evaluate anything that is related to meta from a player I'm not familiar with.

Are you saying you plan to be this unhelpful

all game

?

~ Pless

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay, Arthur-head will be V/LA. Hopefully, I can get settled quickly and be able to check back here.

[Dolorous Edd]

Okay First thing what does V/LA mean excatly, I assume somthing about not being able to play much as both Arthur and Hyperion have used that same thin in reference to leaving..

@Pless

I can;t explain Aruthur's vote for Hyperion mainly becuse I disagree with it as he is null for me and with 5 posts not really much to go on i say

But I do know he feels that Hyperion is scummy for sotmhong i think :\

Also, Lyanna/ Tammy is right she does get me lynched alot so she is a good judge of meta on me..

Also, I say that I have not read another of Refgan's other games but the one I have played with him feels different to me, totally looks genuie, if you don;t believe meta then call it a gut feeling as that might describe it better..

As for you, I haven't played with Zar much as he mods just about every game On Westeros..

But I do believe that Arthur is right in that Pless you seem to be more agressive and like to force your opinions on others, but I havnt seen you as evil yet so I can't rely on that

@MoI What where your questions and who were they for Alek or Arthur?