A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Shadow1psc]

Nope....

Ok, I'll get back to you on this later. Probably sooner rather than later.

[Eddard Stark]

Prodding Amrun and Mockingjaye

[Benmage]

For all, MoIs reason for selfchosing, MoIs post 125 (ISO 2) gave for me understandable his reason.

Ben is more mysterious about it.

And?

And you definitely get no town cred whatsoever by self-Choosing, and then immediately going, "You're scum for asking why I did it, because I'm obviously confirmed town for self-Choosing."

Well for someone who accuses me of ‘selective reading’ this is pretty interesting interpretation of my response to you. Please by all means link to ANY post I’ve made this game that indicates directly that I have claimed to be Confirmed Town.

I said this.. and is it not true?

Yup Shadow1 is scum also.

Scum/scum with a town pm...the 'cutesy' game is useless

I hated how he come right in and started defending Feynal...reeks of scumbuddies...

Because scum buddies are going to white knight on day one, less than 24 hours in to said day.

Too much of this game is being taken too seriously too quickly.

*headdesk*

Then you either didn't read it, or you've never played with Mina. Simple as that.

Everyone hits their stride later.... and its an easy scum veil.

Cow

what do you think of the scum logic in a posting style like the ones you quoted here: post 382

2. for his nice scummy post (I am so scummy, so of course I am not scum)

Because scum deliberately act scummy

But town do?

Unchoose

FML

[Eddard Stark]

The Doom of Valyria is the name for the cataclysm of an unspecified nature that caused the collapse of the Valyrian Freehold. It occurred approximately a century before the Targaryen Conquest of Westeros

Day 1, Votecount 24

MagnaofIllusion (1) - Shadow1psc
Starbuck (1) - redFF
SnowStorm (5) - Plessiezarus, Regfan, Tyene Sand, Feysal, Jal

Minimum (7) - MagnaofIllusion, Salamence20, Hasdgfas, Lyanna Stark, Benmage, greenknight, Shinori

Salamence20 (3) - Amrun, Minimum, bvoigt
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
Shinori (6) - Pandora, BBmolla, Staeg, Plum's Yo Mamma, Dolorous Edd, Mastermind of Sin
Shadow1psc (1) - StefanB

Not Voting (3):

Mockingjaye, kortul, SnowStorm

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 3rd September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-03 18:59:59)
  
• MOI is V/la.

CHOOSE A HANGOVER

Tyene Sand (1) - Feysal
Dolorous Edd (2) - hasdgfas, Jal

Feysal (5) - Dolorous Edd, Salamence20, Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori

Hasdgfas (1) - Shadow1psc
Minimum (2) - Regfan, StefanB
Starbuck (2) - Starbuck, Staeg
redFF (2) - Minimum, Pandora
Shadow1psc (4) - BBmolla, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Mastermind of Sin
Mastermind of Sin (1) - Tyene Sand

Not Choosing (8):

Lyanna Stark, Mockingjaye, kortul, redFF, Amrun, Plessiezarus, SnowStorm, Benmage

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.i

Any mistakes, please point them out.

[StefanB]

Ben: This was a perhaps to unclear worded point, about the questioning of selfchosing.
This was done by three people you, MoI and Starbuck.
You and MoI are simmilar that you choose yourself in the first post.
I found it a little weird that MoI was presure for it, and you were asked but no one gave it a second thought.

A thought it was really weird that a lot of people asked what were his reason, when we had post 125.

So I asked exspecially Min why they reacted the way they reacted.

[Benmage]

- Suspicious Heartfelt Atypical Dour Omnicient Waffling Emergency Hydrapartner

Jackal, jackal, its jackal! Jackal!

CES, I don't find anything in your posts even slightly town, convince me I'm wrong?

I'm being far too lazy to be scum.

See CES is smart enough to dance this line... Shadow isn't.

You should learn to sheep. It's a very useful skill.

Convince Mina to sheep/proxy me the remainder of the game and you can live. (Cause unless I stop this... people with mull, and you will be deadline swingy-in..so get back to me)

I'm willing to bet, come sun up day 2, no one will have been right about a single person.

I'd bet my end of day list is more than 80% accurate.

I can point you to Weather Mafia II where I got BBmolla-scum lynched D1 with decent pieces of evidence (why do you care if the evidence is 'right' when lynching scum, anyway? People make too much noise out of cases, and there's little point in giving your scumread ammunition against you). It happens, and it's not that rare.

WOAH WOAH WOAH... lets not forget I vig'd scumReck D1 too.... okay moving on. (infact I think I’m batting a 1000 as a vig on this site)

I don't have much in the way of scumreads. SnowStorm, redFF, I-can-go-with-Minimum.

SnowStorm

is easily the strongest of those. I also need to check Hyperion, but that won't happen tonight.

You should stop assuming stupid = scum, btw.

Promise me Ned? Promise you what? That'd I'd delete your posts on the wrong account? Sure thing, sister!

Hmmmm I must be forgetting how this part in the book went down.

[Benmage]

Gotchya SB.

[Shadow1psc]

I'd bet my end of day list is more than 80% accurate.

In 28 players?

In other news, Benmage is town.

[Benmage]

Re: Regfan's 345 - again, for the millionth time I ask: how is posting 10 posts of 50 words worse than 2 of 250?

People generally look at the number of pages first, if they see the game has exploded with 10+ pages they're more inclined to want to replace out or procrastinate instead of getting to the game (Pappums is a perfect example of this) whereas walls and longer posts do much less of that and in worst case the people with less time or who are lazier can just glimpse/skim read them (Which they shouldn't do!) so it's much less harmful.

That might keep people away... but tis these fucking walls the drain the life out of people.

PFFT. Reckoner was too lazy to be scum in Scummies too...wait. Also, are you going to say you're random vote hopping as scum in the WoT game was you being active and not lazy?

Yeah,

Reck is pretty uncoo

l (it should be fairly obvious this tell isn't supposed to apply to everyone?). And the WoT thing was me being overwhelmed, not lazy.

Oh you motherfucker...

who can disagree with this

fuk fuk fuck.

LOOK people don't wanna be scumbags. Tactically lurking is douchebaggery numero uno. See reck. CES, honourable.

unvote

goddamnit.. takin a break, I will plow through this soon enough and set us down the path of enlightenment.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@DCL / StephanB

– Don’t give my discussion with Tyene any more consideration than you already have. My purpose in asking Tierce those questions was to establish a baseline on her thought process. I really have not one iota of care whether Tierce or anyone else thinks I’m a good ‘policy lynch’ other than the innate humor it brings me. Ignore the whole discussion going forward please.

Amrun being all “Um, I need to catch-up” does not make my gut happy. Are you scum here Amrun?

Snowstorm unvoting Benmage at Post 617 without actually re-voting really is dinging my scumdar. The whole point of his “my Town read on Benmage nullified my vote” stance was that Benmage wasn’t in any lynch danger and thus his vote was no danger. So he has no reason to unvote in that post given he doesn’t have someplace he wants the vote to go.

Shadow’s latest I’ll shoot who I want is simply a very light Appeal To Fear for those who read either Cow or I as Town and should not be any reason to adjust Choosing him.

--

I said this.. and is it not true?

Self-Choosing is not a Town-tell. It's not a scum-tell but it certainly isn't "TownTownTown" either.

--

Ok, I see where you are going with this, but I must ask, why must I be obvscum? What if I am just town trying to play with the big boys and failing either way he plays.

Where did I say you were obv-scum? If I thought you were I would be voting you. I list suspicions as I see them. You worry too much about me listing a possible scum play from your slot given I’m not pushing you to hang at the moment.

--

@Minimum

– I’ll keep this short …

In Post 643 were you seriously suggesting that my Post 635 was ‘turning up the rhetoric”?

Furthermore the whole “Oh my god Greenknight your sheeping is going to lead to me lynch” seems quite overblown since you were only have approximately half the votes necessary to actually lynch you when you made it.

1) Minimum's policy-choosing you right out of the gate, as well as not explaining to people why we chose you, was a scumtell? You seem to keep implying it was.
2) Tierce is scummy, given that you felt the need to chime in and go, "Oh, don't listen to people telling you Tierce looks town--you should NEVER trust meta on her."

1. Nope. Your reaction to my Self-Choosing is highly suspect. None of the “Oh, is he playing the poor me card” and “maybe he has lost confidence in his play” reasons you would question my Self-Choose are frankly hogwash. My gut initial reaction I think nailed it … you two are worried that I would choose you somehow. And your “MoI regardless of alignment would push your lynch” line supports that initial feeling. If I was scum looking to generate “Town Pity Cred” with the Self-Choose then the correct decision is to Choose me. So no point in unchoosing so early if you wanted to pursue this line of thought. I can’t see the Mina half of your guys honestly as Town thinking Town MoI would waste the ‘Lightning’ on a vendetta (CES on the other hand is that self-absorbed) vig as opposed to playing to his Wincon. So your reaction was suspect and worth a vote.
2. No. Tierce’s “I can’t change my meta” is frankly hogwash. I didn’t catch her in Day 1 in Experimental Mafia because I ‘knew’ her meta (I had never played with her before). I caught her because her posts were scummy and showed scum intent. Knowing what I do now about how she tends plays as scum I'd say that game is very meta-contrapositive for her. She should be judged on her efforts in thread not on her history. Letting those unfamiliar with her know that leaning on meta with her is not a positive way to read her slot is Pro-Town.

--

I think the motivation was to "manufacture," if you will, a towntell. Again, there's no direct scum motivation to selfchoose. But the way that you pointed out that scum wouldn't want to do it as soon as someone questioned you makes me think that it was a move deliberately calculated to get towncred.

Well given that you (and several others) have had this same reaction I frankly find your “You did it to get Town-cred” when it has netted me none and I don’t really care anyway to be pretty ludicrous.

@Bvoigt

– so did you stop ‘back-mining’ the thread because I called you out on it?

The irony of you attacking Sala for “going after easy mislynches” in Post 613 is not lost on me. Sala has the biggest VI rep in the game by far.

--

Don't be a dick. You know I'm ESL and that snip was unwarranted. If I don't understand a sentence, there's no need to call me stupid.

Actually I didn’t. I’ve noticed there is a rash of “Being bitchy due to assuming people know everything about you when they don’t” going on here on MS. We probably need a site inoculation for whatever is causing it.

If you seriously have any thoughts that I have any sort of care whether you or CES or Mina or really anyone else considers me a policy lynch then you need to adjust your expectations.

[Benmage]

I said this.. and is it not true?

Self-Choosing is not a Town-tell. It's not a scum-tell but it certainly isn't "TownTownTown" either.

I meant in the specific cases here.

[Benmage]

I know I promised to wait.. but here's a quick look attempt:

Town:
1) Minimum (Mina/CES)
2) Lyanna Stark (Tammy)
3) Mockingjaye
4) Dolorous Edd (Ser Arthur Dayne/bodean44)
5) Staeg
6) Tyene Sand (Tierce)
9) MagnaofIllusion
12) hasdgfas
13) Shadow1psc
14) Regfan
pappums rat15) Amrun
18) Benmage
20) Plessiezarus (Zar/Plessiez)
22) Pandora (Hydra)
23) Salamence20
24) Starbuck
25) BBmolla
26) SnowStorm
27) Jal
28) StefanB


scum
11) redFF
Hyperion8) Shinori
10) Plum's Yo Mamma

other
Petyr Baelish7) kortul
sword of omens16) greenknight
17) Bvoigt
19) Mastermind of Sin
21) Feysal

[Shadow1psc]

Shadow’s latest I’ll shoot who I want is simply a very light Appeal To Fear for those who read either Cow or I as Town and should not be any reason to adjust Choosing him.

That is the most hilariously bullshit statement I've seen you make.

[StefanB]

But MoI we can make his appeal to fear go out in flame, we just have to lynch him instead of sending him to the wall.
Shadow: Your post were this was a boost and could be read as if you choose me, I will do what I want, not interesting in what the majority wants.
So your reaction is over the top.

[Shadow1psc]

But MoI we can make his appeal to fear go out in flame, we just have to lynch him instead of sending him to the wall.
Shadow: Your post were this was a boost and could be read as if you choose me, I will do what I want, not interesting in what the majority wants.
So your reaction is over the top.

See, if you wanted to claim that, you would have looked at point #1 closer. Point #2 is simply my honest answer (and is somewhat linked to the more important part of the post).

[greenknight]

What worries me more is that he'd devoted a lot of breath to saying no one should unvote me or treat me as town, when his vote on me was apparently just a bandwagon vote based on our page two posts

I've argued with Tierce about the validity of our respective reads on you, but I don't believe I have ever told anyone not to unvote you.

(and he misrepresented those posts badly, as CES already explained--WTF does "muddying the waters" even

mean

?). Have you actually started catching up with the game, greenknight? Have you read any of our posts in the middle of the game?

I'm mostly caught up at this point. So... first off I'll admit that I actually thought those page 2 posts I don't like (34, 37, 43) were written by CES because I thought they fit his style more from my memories of AFFC, which is why I thought CES had picked up the votes for your hydra. However that doesn't change much. You guys Chose MoI on page 1, in #34 you explain your policy on choosing followed by saying "or just choose MoI" - this phrasing makes it unclear whether MoI was a real or RVS joke vote. #37 you then ask MoI why he voted himself, with an added sarcastic line about the meanies ganging up on him, and #43 you make a joke scum claim. Again, to me this read as muddying the waters, not because jokes are inherently anti-town, but because by posting this stuff instead of "hey I didn't like MoI's reponse because of X" it remains it unclear WHY you are choosing MoI (a vote that stays on for 10 or so pages.) I could potentially see this as a reaction test, but you didn't claim it as such. And there is the oddness MoI pointed out in his post later that if you do think MoI is a good Choice in order to get a town vig as opposed to scum (34), then why question his selfvote.

Who are your suspects right now?

Feysal
Minimum
bvoigt (complaining about Sala going after weaker players, when he's himself done nothing but attack Sala who is also a weak player)
staeg (mainly a gut read atm)

Other popular wagons:

I don't know what to make of shadow, I'd expected him to be more aggressive about calling people out as scum no matter his alignment from the 2 games I've played with him, here he is just taking more of a generally argumentative approach, but I don't see any "this line of argument is scummy" tells atm so he can live for today.

Snow's responses to attacks on him feel natural and townish in the sense of "I'm explaining my style and I'm not changing it just because there's a wagon on me."

Hyperion just reads as someone who had no time to play the game and, oddly enough, although Shinori came in and voted exactly the same way as I did, I trust him less for doing it.

[Lyanna Stark]

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

I'm a bit confused by your accusation that my response was disingenuous and quite frankly baffled by how you would get there. Okay, four people were replacing out at that point, by my count only one person replaced out after, that was redff who was already garnering a good amount of suspicion anyway, so that's a moot point. If you were more bothered by the situation than you let on, that's fine (I've been there) but I'm not a mind reader. So you expressing confidence that you weren't getting lynched and then flipping to being upset because it was guaranteed looked off to me. There's nothing disingenuous in my interpretation, and all you had to do was say that you were trying to not let it bother you more than it was and it would have been a point I could understand.

[Minimum]

Again, to me this read as muddying the waters, not because jokes are inherently anti-town, but because by posting this stuff instead of "hey I didn't like MoI's reponse because of X" it remains it unclear WHY you are choosing MoI (a vote that stays on for 10 or so pages.)

Why would MoI's selfchoose have made us explain why we were choosing MoI?

And there is the oddness MoI pointed out in his post later that if you do think MoI is a good Choice in order to get a town vig as opposed to scum (34), then why question his selfvote.

It was a bogus point then and it still is now. Just look at MoI's answer to our question - how is that related to our Choice?

[Lyanna Stark]

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

Welcome to day 1. I like swords.

Do you have a point you'd like to make here.

On another note: Delorous Edd - this is what sniping from the sidelines looks like.

[Shadow1psc]

(I think it's somewhat disingenuous of Tammy to claim that we weren't in serious danger, particularly because of a bunch of people who replaced out AFTER that post and who, if anything, would make the game stagnate more--fine, not GUARANTEED to be lynched, just really, really, really fucking likely to get lynched? I was more worried about the wagon than I was letting on, but thought people would eventually just see I was town--or at least, more likely to be town than scum--and move onto actual substantial cases because the original premise of the wagon was so silly and flimsy.)

Welcome to day 1. I like swords.

Do you have a point you'd like to make here.

On another note: Delorous Edd - this is what sniping from the sidelines looks like.

My point, obviously, was that I like swords.

[Lyanna Stark]

Choose Shadow

[Plums Yo Mamma]

Okay, hi, back here again. Two things to say today - everything beyond it and the commentary is dessert:

greenknight is scum.

Bvoigt is scum and needs to die. He should be lynched. If for some reason this proves impossible, he should be Chosen.

Bvoigt puts forth a modestly impressive wordcount. His contributions amount to near zero and the degree to which he cares about contributing is zero.

I would still like starbuck to die (who STILL hasn't nameclaimed), but I'm more or less alone there.

Why do you want Starbuck to nameclaim? Until she's in danger of being lynched, it's antitown. If she was at L-1, we'd want to hear her name and flavor, but until then, all it does is give more information to the scum.

He does not follow up on asking about why Staeg wanted Starbuck to nameclaim. He wanted to say something that sounded Townish and was easy to say. He did not care to

evaluate Staeg's motivations

for asking Starbuck this, despite implying that it was suspect on basis of being anti-Town.

His questioning of BBMolla is similarly disingenuous:

What was the purpose of asking this?

What was the purpose of asking

this?

Out of all the posts in this game

Page 1, I know, but it sounded like possible rolefishing. What were you expecting for an answer? "Yes, all the people with alts are using their actual rolenames from the game"?

BBMolla is right. It was a nonentity of an issue to ask about. The few things Bvoigt touched on in his first post of substance in the game included this. Bvoigt wanted to be able to look like he was pursuing rolefishing and look like he was making contributions and asking. Note that the question and response to BBMolla are his only interactions with BBMolla this game. If he were sincerely questioning to determine BBMolla's motivations for his question and thence his alignment, he would not have immediately claimed to be looking for possible rolefishing. Now it's obviously related to the fact that the idea that someone would actually read that post as possible rolefishing is complete BS.

For the moment, though, she's nowhere near being chosen. I just don't see how we can use her nameclaim to help us. Stefan, I don't think it's more dangerous, but it's still additional information for the scum.

VOTE: Salamence

Choose: Feysal

Trying to grab Townpoints by spending time and energy being 'against giving the scum additional information'. This isn't scumhunting or pursuing leads or productively addressing an important topic. It's a side conversation and it's useless. And it is certainly deliberate.

His attacks on Sala are full of crud. They boil down to 'hasn't done anything in this game'. Beside the fact that saying that well describes quite a few more players in the game, including Bvoigt himself:

So, here's why I think Sala is scum:

His first three posts are all useless. He said he was catching up in another thread, and I'm sure that's true. But why bother making those posts at all? They add nothing new to the game. It looks like scum trying to appear helpful and avoid accusations of lurking.

Despite its length, his catchup post really doesn't have a lot of scumhunting IMO. Again, it seems like he's trying to appear helpful, rather than actively looking for the scum as a townie would.

Furthermore, I just noticed that he voted Minimum in his very first post, and has kept that vote there for the entire game, with no explanation AFAIK. @Sala: Why do you think Minimum is scum?

This goes beyond the scumminess of making a case post in order to justify having a read and vote on someone. After having established his vote in a previous post and then, in the above, clearly showing a set decision that Sala is scum, the last bit - the question - is disingenuous. It is not a question in search of an answer - Bvoigt does not anticipate hearing an answer that will inform his read of Sala in new ways. Neither is it a rhetorical question - the point about the longstanding Minimum vote was made the sentence before. It is a question for the sake of filler, for the sake of looking like a hunter and not just a picker-chooser of scumreads, for the sake of variety in his case. It is not an outgrowth of sincere scumhunting.

The irony of you attacking Sala for “going after easy mislynches” in Post 613 is not lost on me. Sala has the biggest VI rep in the game by far.

This too is an important point.

This case reads as contrived to me. Actually, I'm not quite sure why most of the people on the Minimum wagon are voting them. They're still pretty much null to me.

He has not spent any time looking into one of - if not the - most important wagons of the day. He has not tried to get a read on Minimum, who is the suspect pushed most and hardest by MoI, on whom he expressed a scumread.

He continues to accuse Sala of not scumhunting - but it is quite clear that despite some feeble attempts to hide this, Bvoight is certainly scum who is trying to look somewhat involved in the game but who does not care to scumhunt or evaluate the players here. He has three scumreads. Sala for active-lurking. MoI for 'attempting to manufacture a Townread by selfchoosing'. Feysal for thinking Starbuck scummy for having an alien take on the game. He has pushed and cared about - if you care to give it that much credit -

one

of these.

I’d also consider a wagon on Bvoigt for Post 451 as it looks very much like the “Stall out commenting on anything of recent vintage to look active while not being held accountable for being up-to-speed” style posting scum love to use to active-lurk along. Nothing in that post is meaningful (he asks questions about comments on Page 1 which have long been settled, takes three positions that have been more or less long settled and convienently falls on the right side in each, and makes a throwaway fence-sit on a post of mine).

This is complete and utter truth, this post. Bvoigt has done

nothing

but active-lurk. From his first post, which MoI broke down so eloquently, to his last. This wagon MoI would consider? It is happening. This very minute.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bvoigt

---

Regarding greenknight:

Well, look at what happened since I voted. Pushing the Minimum wagon caused reactions from both heads of the hydra, and also from people defending minimum. This gives us useful content to analyse, and speeds up the process of reaching a consensus on whether the wagon's good or not. So, if we decide the wagon's bad there'll be more time to conside other targets.

And yet note that to the degree that reactions are analyzed it's all fit into the preconceived notion that Greenknight wants to be on the wagon:

Sure she's frustrated... but wouldn't she also be frustrated as scum? I'm sure it's very annoying if you happen to draw scum, feel like you are playing a decent game and someone pulls "not obvtown enough" as evidence against you. I do see with your point about paranoia being a typical town reaction when the attacked player feels the reasons for voting are bad, but I don't see why scum could not also make a "you guys all suck" post.

This is him

arguing against Tyene/Tierce's townread of Mina

. This is someone clinging to a stated read and vote. This is also someone giving out 'reaction test' answers to questions like Pless's.

And there is the oddness MoI pointed out in his post later that if you do think MoI is a good Choice in order to get a town vig as opposed to scum (34), then why question his selfvote.

And this is just plain scummy disingenuous.

So.

Unchoose

Choose Greenknight

Y'all may get some dessert sometime later today.

[hasdgfas]

Cow what do you think of the scum logic in a posting style like the ones you quoted here: post 382

The first post I quoted there is him claiming scum, and as already mentioned, that's one of my policy votes when I see it.

Secondly, "too much is being taken too seriously" is a way for scum to say "don't pay attention to what I do early because it's unimportant". Basically, his scum logic is play "too scummy to be scum".

[Shadow1psc]

Cow what do you think of the scum logic in a posting style like the ones you quoted here: post 382

The first post I quoted there is him claiming scum, and as already mentioned, that's one of my policy votes when I see it.

Secondly, "too much is being taken too seriously" is a way for scum to say "don't pay attention to what I do early because it's unimportant". Basically, his scum logic is play "too scummy to be scum".

Nice way to twist words, where did I ever say what I do isn't important? Nor did I call myself too scummy to be scum, I merely pointed out that scum don't tend to intentionally act scummy. Seems redundant. Your entire argument is based around a huge discussion you never really responded to. You've contributed less than I have, by and large to the current discussions for that matter. Just because I'm loud and in your face, y u hatin ; ;

[Minimum]

Unchoose, choose: greenknight