A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Starbuck]

Shadow, can you tell us your flavor?

[Eddard Stark]

Dog is a dog that walks with Septon Meribald through the Riverlands. He keeps Septon Meribald safe upon the roads he traverses, even in trying times. Neither wolf nor outlaw dare molest him when Dog is by his side. Dog has killed a dozen wolves

Day 1, Votecount 46

Saporerint (5) - Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, BBmolla, Shinori, Albert B. Rampage
Feysal (1) - Starbuck

Shadow1psc (13) - Lyanna Stark, Benmage, kortul, Minimum, Dolorous Edd, Saporerint, Mockingjaye, Plums Yo Mamma, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion, bvoigt, Tyene Sand, StefanB

bvoigt (5) - greenknight, SnowStorm, Pandora, Seraphim, Plessiezarus
StefanB (1) - Regfan
Regfan (1) - DCLXVI

Not Voting (2):

Jal, Feysal

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 5th September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-05 18:59:59)
  
• Starbuck/Benmage/MOI/Lyanna Stark/Mastermind of Sin are all V/la.

CHOOSE A LATE SUMMER

Feysal (8) - Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori, DCLXVI, Benmage, Albert B. Rampage, Saporerint, Mastermind of Sin
Minimum (2) - Mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion
Starbuck (1) - Starbuck
greenknight (1) - Seraphim
kortul (2) - BBmolla, Shdow1psc

DLCXVI (14) - Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, Minimum, Regfan, Pandora, Feysal, Lyanna Stark, Kortul, Plums Yo Mamma, Staeg, Dolorous Edd, StefanB, SnowStorm, BBmolla

Not Choosing (1):

Jal

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.

[Minimum]

I'm currently trying to finish a few applications (seriously, the next person who accuses me of tactically lurking can shove it--leaving aside that I'm not that cheap as either alignment, I'm putting more effort into this game than most people are even though I didn't want to play in the first place), so there's a lot of stuff I won't respond to now.

But doing this temporarily so that no one does anything stupd:

Unvote

Unchoose

Shadow, have you ever heard of the torturer role before?

Don't have high hopes that DC will flip scum right now, but Feysal's big reads post also looked town, so I'm at a loss for options. I'm starting to think the scum are hidden among the stronger players, but I have no clue which ones.

MoS, what's the source of your confidence that DC is a bad wagon?

(By the way, PlumNacho's hop onto Shadow bugged the shit out of me. They made a huge case on bvoigt that singlehandedly started the wagon, don't ever back down from it...but then when Shadow's wagon gains momentum mostly as a counterwagon to bvoigt...without even mentioning bvoigt, they make

another

big case on Shadow, and hop over? This was when bvoigt hadn't said a single word in his defence. They don't even seem to have a moment of town "Hmm, should I switch wagons? Both of these are good," self-reflection. Just another giant case to persuade people onto Shadow.)

[Minimum]

EBWOP:

1)

But doing this temporarily so that no one does anything stupd:

Like, misspelling "stupid."

2) To clarify my question to MoS: I understand liking DC's reactions, but you seem confident that DC never should have been wagoned in the first place.

(DC, are you trying to look like you'll shoot Regfan so we don't lynch you, y/n? I only skimmed the beginning of your scum game, and so far haven't seen a huge difference, at least between that and your early play here; is there an obvious scum/towntell coming up?)

[Benmage]

Don't care much for Shadows claim.

Lynching ScumPlum is still an option.

[Mastermind of Sin]

@Mina: Are you sure you didn't mean to address those questions to someone else? I haven't really said anything to indicate I thought the DCLX wagon was terrible...I just don't understand what caused it. In my skim of the last 8 pages or so I didn't really see a lot of reasoning for voting him, and I can't recall DCLX doing anything so far this game that would have made me even consider voting him. It's not so much that I have a town read on DCLX (I'm decidedly null due to lack of evidence in either direction as far as I've seen), but I don't understand what caused momentum to swing his way all of a sudden. The wagon built so quickly that it must have been some huge and obvious scumtell, but I don't recall seeing anything like that.

[Benmage]

What does shadow do? Jailkeep a cop, to find out they have investigate...

Sounds like an uber scum role.

Still down to hang.

[BBmolla]

When's deadline

[Benmage]

Dude just look at the VC... 1 day 20 hrs..

[DCLXVI]

(DC, are you trying to look like you'll shoot Regfan so we don't lynch you, y/n? I only skimmed the beginning of your scum game, and so far haven't seen a huge difference, at least between that and your early play here; is there an obvious scum/towntell coming up?)

I'm not going to comment any further on who I would shoot if I was chosen. I'm not trying to hint at anyone because that would be helpful to scum in choosing their nightkill. I suppose my vote on regfan could be taken that way, but I was kinda hoping that we could perhaps flashwagon someone other than myself.

As far as meta goes I really would have preferred that someone had actually brought it up instead of myself because self meta is rather useless, but I'll give a hint anyways since it doesn't seem to be as obvious.

Compare catchup posts.

[Minimum]

Don't lynch Shadow yet! I want a response from him.

Benmage, if he has the role he says he does, then it only makes sense for him to be Ramsay for flavour reasons. (Anyway, Faraday loves giving scummy-looking roles to townies--see ASoS for an example.) Do you know any Aegon-aligned or ???-aligned characters who make sense as torturers?

(Speaking of which, BBmolla, was that information you heard in your role PM, or a mod message was just randomly sent to you in the middle of the day?)

[Regfan]

How the hell are we getting vanity wagons at 60 hours to deadline? Regfan, you should be ashamed.

I have a town-read on Shadow and on Bvoigt, while we need a lynch I still rather it be on someone that I think has a reasonable chance of flipping scum and none of the options available for lynching right now have that. I want one of Stefan, Minimum or Plum but it seems like I won't be getting it. Note this though, if I die tonight all three must be hung, none can get to lylo, I want that followed because I think lynching in there will hit minimum two scum.

Underlined is multiball-invalid things, bold are player-based tells and italics are points I disagree that are towntells.

If you're going to rule out the things you've bolded as town-tells due to multi-ball than nearly any town-tell at all used in the game can be voided for the same reason, his genuiness in scumhunting, posting and assessment is still a town-tell and he's still not up for lynching.

Wait a second, I'm stupid. So regfan asks for my meta on replacing into game. I give it to him, he doesn't mention it at all and puts a vote on me. If he were town and had read what he had asked for, (it would only have taken 5 minutes or less) I highly doubt he would have voted me. which then leads to the conclusion that he is scum and ignored the meta because there wasn't anything in there he could use to frame me.

I took a look at both games and didn't find many similarities between either game and here at all so discarded it.

[BBmolla]

(Speaking of which, BBmolla, was that information you heard in your role PM, or a mod message was just randomly sent to you in the middle of the day?)

Latter.

[Pandora]

People who have experience with DCL from just ended games like Otherworld, does he seem like the kind of townie that would jump up as if enlightened that Regfan (someone who is not getting lynched today) is scum because he 'wouldn't have voted him if he'd read his meta'?

Hellcat you do know a flashwagon on Regfan with votes wouldn't unchoose you right >_>

Torture cop sounds like a cool role. If there's anything multiball games have taught me it's that scum roles tend to be bland and town roles tend to be really cool. Can we not lynch the idiot town now please

[BBmolla]

UNCHOOSE

No lynch and no choose incoming.

[Dolorous Edd]

I'm Ramsay Bolton, torturer. I can target one person each night, and upon a successful action, not only are they roleblocked, but they're rolecopped for any active abilities. Only works if they have active abilities, so if I were to target myself, I'd be told that I was a 'Torturer'.

This reads as fake.

Shadow, what's your little underlined role flavor thing? Ex:

(A)

GODHAND:

You may choke people to death whenever you want.

(A)

And if 7 virgins should accidentally drown...

Once during the game you may pick 7 players to kill at once. Just because.

[Tyene Sand]

DCLXVI's meta claim is bullshit. Honestly, if I see a scum game of his in the near future where he opts to take the 'scum meta' catch-up post instead of what he is apparently aware is his 'typical town' catch-up style, there will be Issues with trust tells. If you're aware you do it, there's no freaking way you won't apply known town meta to scum games when possible (barring occasional subversions for certain situations). So yeah, I am most definitely not buying that. The Regfan bit sounds contrived, too.

And he's still a good Choose pick since he claimed VT. Threats to shoot Regfan or whoever else won't be the thing to move me.


I do buy Shadow1psc's claim, and an investigative role goes well with his Give No Fucks attitude because he knows he can figure things out at night. I don't like the attitude, but it doesn't make him scum. In addition, it's far too overpowered for scum in the likely multiball we're in due to 28p. A rolecop+roleblocker rolled into one is a beast of a thing and massively positive utility for scum, while a town roleblocker can actually be partial negative utility due to town not knowing the whole team (etc. etc. theory stuff). i.e. the power of a scum roleblocker will always be larger than a town roleblocker, and the same with a scum/town rolecop. It's overpowered for scum, but makes sense as town.

UNVOTE: Shadow1psc

There is definitely a huge problem with my pile of townreads and I will have to review it during N1. In the meantime, I really have no idea what to do with this vote.

[Tyene Sand]

I do admit I like the thinking behind this, though:

I'm not saying who I'm going to vig. Simply because I want to leave the possibility of myself and scum targeting the same player in case I shoot a townie.

[Mastermind of Sin]

DCLXVI's meta claim is bullshit. Honestly, if I see a scum game of his in the near future where he opts to take the 'scum meta' catch-up post instead of what he is apparently aware is his 'typical town' catch-up style, there will be Issues with trust tells. If you're aware you do it, there's no freaking way you won't apply known town meta to scum games when possible (barring occasional subversions for certain situations). So yeah, I am most definitely not buying that. The Regfan bit sounds contrived, too.

That said, I'm inclined to believe most meta arguments the first time they are used, at least somewhat. Oftentimes I've found myself not to be consciously aware of a particular town meta of mine until someone accuses me of being scum for it, at which point I can point to my previous games as proof of the meta. After that point, however, if I remember I will probably try to adapt my scum play to absorb that town meta. The first time has more weight, though, imo.

[Dolorous Edd]

Threats to shoot Regfan or whoever else won't be the thing to move me.

QFT.

Seriously, I am def not in the mood to run up another player for them to claim. If you've had a bad play, unless you claim something that can be fucking proven or something that is worthy to keep around, then to the noose you go.

I would honestly like to switch my choose back to Feysal. But if he's town, then we are getting another townie to claim. I'm not in the mood to have half of the player list claim on Day1.

DCL, if you're town, please use your brain. Don't shoot someone over some little paranoia or some other crap. And don't shoot someone we can't afford to lose if they're town. Chances are, scum will be easy to catch in the end mostly because of POE.

I do buy Shadow1psc's claim, and an investigative role goes well with his Give No Fucks attitude because he knows he can figure things out at night.

Umm, not really? He can figure out someones role? And roleblock them? And he become the Oracle of Delphi?

Though actually, Shadow's role will sort itself out in time, even if he's lying. And as opposed to my initial thought upon reading it, my gut is telling me it's town right now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Bvoigt
I'm bad at this ._.

~I'm good at this

[MagnaofIllusion]

There is definitely a huge problem with my pile of townreads and I will have to review it during N1. In the meantime, I really have no idea what to do with this vote.

Good to know you fully expect to survive the Night ...

UNVOTE: Shadow1
VOTE: bvoigt

While Shadow's role is just as likely Scum as Town he's a dead man after that claim unless this is Singleball. Don't forget that if he survives long term even if he serves up a tasty bus at some point. After I threw him to the wolves in AFFC I'm sure he is capable of doing the same. Also Mina herself use that role (or a variation) in her Tiger Eaten Large Normal game so I would expect Faraday (a reviewer and back-up mod IIRC) to be certainly capable of swiping it.

[Dolorous Edd]

Re-arranging reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN:

SnowStorm, greenknight, Starbuck, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, Shadow1psc, kortul

NULL:

Minimum, Salamence20, Shinori, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

LEANING SCUM:

Mastermind of Sin

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

I need to re-look at Cow/whoever replaced him, Staeg, and MoI.

Seriously, one thing that has been bothering me about MoI is the fact that he is throwing suspicion towards Mini without actually doing much to try and convince people. Like, every once in a while he would drop by and say something like “Everyone should vote Mini”, “This thread needs more Mini votes”, etc, without actually looking like he is believing in what he is saying. It just feels artificial.

[Minimum]

Well, I wanted Shadow to answer if he'd seen the role before giving it away, MoI, but it's more than that. Faraday and I actually came up with the role together, for another game (also for a torturer character), and liked it so much that I used it for my Large Normal (which Faraday played a large part in designing). There's no way this is a coincidence.

Just one question. So you get "torturer" on a torturer, Shadow? What do you get on a doctor? On a vanilla townie? On a Mafia goon?

[DCLXVI]

DCLXVI's meta claim is bullshit. Honestly, if I see a scum game of his in the near future where he opts to take the 'scum meta' catch-up post instead of what he is apparently aware is his 'typical town' catch-up style, there will be Issues with trust tells. If you're aware you do it, there's no freaking way you won't apply known town meta to scum games when possible (barring occasional subversions for certain situations). So yeah, I am most definitely not buying that. The Regfan bit sounds contrived, too.

I'm not the one who brought meta up in the first place. regfan did.

Regfan specifically asked me about replacement meta. I hadn't said anything (or thought anything for that matter) about my replacing style.So nope, I wasn't using any type of trust tell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Seriously, one thing that has been bothering me about MoI is the fact that he is throwing suspicion towards Mini without actually doing much to try and convince people. Like, every once in a while he would drop by and say something like “Everyone should vote Mini”, “This thread needs more Mini votes”, etc, without actually looking like he is believing in what he is saying. It just feels artificial.

Die in a fire. You seriously need to either actually read the game or shut the fuck up.

I made my case and pushed hard on Miniscum early on. I'm not going to waste my time railing for a lynch when we have a combination of stupid, lazy, and self-interested working against it.

Here's my question - who have you pushed in a non-artificial way? I've seen tons of "Oh, player Z is Town" crap out of you but absolutely no actual credible pushes on anyone.