Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[triangle123]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought scum role blockers can't both role block and kill in one night.

I'm going to reread the thread. No one's confirmed town in LyLo.

[T-Bone]

I expected either my or GK's death, because GK would have protected CMAR, leaving Triangle, CMAR, and whatever player CMAR/Tri thought would be easier to lynch. But yeah you're right, with two Goons flipping, if Triangle is scum, he's likely a power role. One the other hand, GKscum had to kill CMAR because otherwise it's likely CMAR would have Vengekilled him in LyLo. But, no one has mentioned being blocked this entire game. This late in the game, and the lack of town power, I'd predict a rolecop before a roleblocker. Apparently GK is the only role that is a direct hindrance to the scumteam. We've hide a Hider, which only works if played correctly, a commuter, and a Vengeful. Clearly this is a low power game.

Tri, I think the typical meta is to allow the mafia to kill and use their role if they are the last one left.

A Mafia Roleblocker may or may not be allowed to perform the mafia kill the same Night they are also performing a roleblock. (This applies to other Mafia roles as well.) The decision of whether to allow the last Mafioso to kill and use their role at the same time is usually based on what would make the game better-balanced. In Newbie games, the Mafia Roleblocker is allowed to perform both only if they are the last member of their team left.

That's from the Wiki.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 6.1 - As of post 1002

Not Voting (3) - Greenknight, T-Bone, triangle123

The Current deadline is September 14, 2012 at 10:00am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-09-14 10:00:00).

With 3 active votes - 2 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

[greenknight]

Well, I received no notification about why my protect would have failed.

[greenknight]

and tbone's meta analysis 2 posts up is really bad. I will reread this whole mess tomorrow because after the last two dAys I am questioning my own reads in this game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

triangle123 has been prodded.

[T-Bone]

What Meta reads? I don't even consider meta. I've never played with either of you before anyway.

[greenknight]

Setup spec I meant. The roleblocker can usefully block the hider for a start

[triangle123]

I need to review T-Bone's ISO still, but I skimmed the thread and green's ISO. Right now I'm leaning towards green as town (e.g. his vote-switching between Tierce and Jason at the end of Day 1 definitely seemed like indecisive town), but I still need to look at T-Bone.

[greenknight]

If I was scum, I had enough town cred to get two mislynches on day 4 and 5 and win so why would I fake a doc claim, expose myself to a potential counterclaim and force myself to get a 3rd mislynch?

[T-Bone]

Why would anyone do anything?

I imagine though scum would get fakeclaims. I can think of a ton of reasons you would fakeclaim. A) because you have one available to you. B) because perhaps you believed there would be too many VTs C) In case there was a tracker you could explain why you were targeting people at night. D) You didn't have enough town credit when it came to CMAR anyway. There's four reasons GK.

My set-up speculation is simple. Either you're lying scum, or Triangle has to be able to roleblock you to get the CMAR kill. It's one of you two. Now everything aside, I draw my conclusions about the likelihood of a Rolecop over a Roleblocker because the relative weakness of the town's power roles. The Roleblocker can't block the Hider, because the Hider can't be targeted directly, so that's a moot point GK.

[greenknight]

Hmm I just double checked NAR and you're right about hider taking precedence, but remember we still had a SK in this game whose kill could be blocked. If you think roleblocker is relatively weak against town in the setup because town doesn't have that much to block, that's not a contradiction with the town being light on power.

Also town (hider + 1-shot commuter + vengeful) seems an extremely weak town setup...

[triangle123]

/proddodge

Actual content will come tomorrow.

Still leaning heavily towards T-Bone as scum.

[T-Bone]

Hmm I just double checked NAR and you're right about hider taking precedence, but remember we still had a SK in this game whose kill could be blocked. If you think roleblocker is relatively weak against town in the setup because town doesn't have that much to block, that's not a contradiction with the town being light on power.

Also town (hider + 1-shot commuter + vengeful) seems an extremely weak town setup...

I'm not saying there isn't a roleblocker and you aren't the bulletproof bodyguard doc or whatever. A Roleblocker to counter the SK and your role is reasonable. Of course a Rolecop to discover your role, Starbuck's role, and the SK is also reasonable.

Who did you protect Night 1?

[greenknight]

I protected greyice n1. But I already claimed that. Question is, do you actually have some reason to suspect me other than setup / night action speculation when you have had a town read on me all game?

[T-Bone]

It's LyLo and no one gets a free pass. You were the strongest townread in the entire game from just about everyone...why are you in LyLo? Wouldn't you be saying the same thing if everyone was like "Bone is confirmed town the entire game" and I'm still sitting here in LyLo?

It would be very easy to conclude Triangle is scum and vote for him. If I voted Tri, would you follow suit? Or would you have jumped all over me for going straight to that conclusion? Honestly?

So yes, the most incriminating thing about your play is that you are too-townie. That's what I'm getting at. If you're scum, I need something better than that and set-up speculation is a good tool in this situation.

With all that said, the two people to die Night 1 were Tierce, who was killed by the SK, and kortul, who hid behind the SK meaning that there was no scumkill on Night 1. Night 1 is probably not the situation in which scum would no-kill to back a fake-claim. You've got plenty of things, like your day play working for you, and you've got a few set-up things working against you. Ultimately that's what I'm weighing in. I was hoping I'd get some discussion out of Tri, but alas...

Thinking about him for a moment, IMO it's common knowledge on this site that Mods would allow the last remaining scum to Roleblock and kill. TBH until GK asked if I blocked him Roleblocker didn't even come to my mind. So it's like the intent of that question was to go "I'm gonna ask this to prove I have no idea the scum have a roleblocker". It's a little late in the game to pretend to be VI. Triangle has proven to be a competent player this game so suddenly coming up with this question is out of place to me.

That and this day phase has been going on for 5 days, and he's just letting the two of us go back and forth. This day phase has become "Bone questions GK, GK defends himself"

[greenknight]

It's LyLo and no one gets a free pass. You were the strongest townread in the entire game from just about everyone...why are you in LyLo? Wouldn't you be saying the same thing if everyone was like "Bone is confirmed town the entire game" and I'm still sitting here in LyLo?

Because if scum killed me instead of CMAR, then CMAR gets autolynched and it's 100% certain that town has the final say on which of you/triangle dies today? And besides my reads have clearly been off for the last couple of days.

It would be very easy to conclude Triangle is scum and vote for him. If I voted Tri, would you follow suit? Or would you have jumped all over me for going straight to that conclusion? Honestly?

Actually, I don't think I'd have read too much into it because you PoEing to triangle was what I was expecting. I figured that I was confirmed town and today was going to be you vs triangle either way.

Thinking about him for a moment, IMO it's common knowledge on this site that Mods would allow the last remaining scum to Roleblock and kill. TBH until GK asked if I blocked him Roleblocker didn't even come to my mind. So it's like the intent of that question was to go "I'm gonna ask this to prove I have no idea the scum have a roleblocker".

You do realise your setup-spec suspicions of me based on the idea that a roleblocker didn't seem to fit into the setup well could be interpreted in a similar way, right?

[T-Bone]

A) You could have been killed any number of days before last night.

B) I'd be doing a disservice to the game by PoEing to Triangle.

C) Sure totally. But I'm not looking through things from your point of you, I'm looking through them from mine.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Activity Check: All currently good

[triangle123]

My internet isn't working and this is not my phone so I don't have long to type. Ive looked over tbones ISO and I'm no longer so sure he is scum because I just can't see his three day tunnel on acosmist as bussing. I've been thinking more about greenknight and his claim doesn't clear him so he's not a possibility I want to discount. Green, can you take us through your reasoning for why you chose to protect the players you did?

[greenknight]

Seriously? You guys really think that a town setup with hider/1-shot commuter/vengeful and no other PRs is plausible? It would be super underpowered.

n1 - greyice - looking town after he dropped the call people scum for no reason act and started calling out Tierce. also a likely threat to scum
n2 - greyice - obvtown after Tierce flipped scum
n3 - greyice - same
n4 - T-bone - I guessed that scum would switch targets and try to kill the doctor after I successfully protected greyice on n3 and possibly also n1, so I moved to another town read, I felt if he was town scum might well target him after how the acosmist situation played out. Scum was definitely not going to kill CMAR, seeing as he thought I was scum.
n5 - CMAR - since keeping him alive would guarantee town had the deciding vote

[T-Bone]

It wouldn't be right to just quick dismiss you as town GK. This day phase isn't Bone vs. triangle, it's GK vs. Bone vs. Triangle

[greenknight]

Yeah ok, apart from the setup spec thing neither of you has provided a case as to why I might be scum...

So who's doing due diligence and who's faking it?

[T-Bone]

Nope, that's really it from me. I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Usually I can and that's when I go back and look.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pay not attention to the slight shaking in the hotel ... just a side effect of being perched at the Event Horizon at the End of the Universe in a stasis bubble!