A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Saporerint]

IIRC, Starbuck claimed VT a) on page 12 or something b) with no significant wagon (but a fair amount of rhetoric, mostly because she had some bizarre idea about the Choose mechanic). If you thought her VT claim

made her scum

, then you probably should have wagoned her and maybe lynched her way back then, but it would be that you thought something about the claim made her scummy (e.g., the circumstances of the claim).

Claiming with a wagon is different. The only reason a claim should change things is if it's alignment-confirmable (e.g., Masons, Cop), and/or if it makes them scumbait (e.g., Vig). (Scum can WIFOM this, but it requires a risk on their part that I would welcome.)

Stefan claimed with a smaller wagon, but at 24 hours to deadline and with momentum, that may as well have been a full wagon.

- Iec

[Saporerint]

Saporerint still a great lynch, and we need to lock in our choose sooo...

This is incorrect. A Choose does not need to be locked in. A plurality is all that is needed.

The vote, however,

does

need a simple majority.

- Iec

[Plessiezarus]

we need to lock in our choose

No we don't?

To show which player you're choosing you may vote for them in the following format: '

Choose Nexus

' in red and bolded. You may Unchoose and Choose like a regular vote, but please put it in red - there's a lot of votes going around and we want to be able to do accurate vote and choose counts.

A simple majority will lock in an assassin, however

if there is no majority then the person with the most votes shall be chosen

.

As long as DCLXVI has more votes to be Chosen than anybody else when the day ends, he will be Chosen.

~ Pless

[DCLXVI]

The choose does not require a majority, so please don't vote me under the fallacy that doing so is better than a no-choose. If you think me and feysal are both town just don't choose either of us.

[Shadow1psc]

Think of it as actively making sure Feysal isn't chosen.

[Staeg]

IIRC, Starbuck claimed VT a) on page 12 or something b) with no significant wagon (but a fair amount of rhetoric, mostly because she had some bizarre idea about the Choose mechanic). If you thought her VT claim

made her scum

, then you probably should have wagoned her and maybe lynched her way back then, but it would be that you thought something about the claim made her scummy (e.g., the circumstances of the claim).

Claiming with a wagon is different. The only reason a claim should change things is if it's alignment-confirmable (e.g., Masons, Cop), and/or if it makes them scumbait (e.g., Vig). (Scum can WIFOM this, but it requires a risk on their part that I would welcome.)

Stefan claimed with a smaller wagon, but at 24 hours to deadline and with momentum, that may as well have been a full wagon.

- Iec

No, you said that this lynch was objectively better because he claimed VT. Starbuck had claimed VT earlier, with a less momentum on her wagon, but it was still there.
The thing is, you're trying to justify Steph as the objectively better lynch in a game of mafia. Almost nothing is objective in mafia.

[Plessiezarus]

I'm not posting for the rest of the day (game-time) for the benefit of my health.

But I had more questions! Well, one more question, really ...

This is your latest lot of reads.

Re-arranging reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN:

SnowStorm, greenknight, Starbuck, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun, Shadow1psc, kortul

NULL:

Minimum, Salamence20, Shinori, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

LEANING SCUM:

Mastermind of Sin

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

There are only 26 names on it. Do you really have

no

opinion on us anymore? We're not even null? Since my ego was piqued (I'm not

dull

, am I?) I went back to look at your previous reads.

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Benmage, Pandora, Lyanna Stark, BBmolla, Tyene Sand, Regfan

LEANING TOWN (S->W):

SnowStorm, StefanB, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Staeg, Starbuck, MagnaofIllusion, Plum's Yo Mamma, Amrun

NULL:

Minimum, kortul

LEANING SCUM (S->W):

greenknight, Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, Salamence20, Shinori

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal, Bvoigt

No mention of our slot .

TOWN FOR EVER AND EVER:

Lyanna Stark, Tyene Sand, Regfan, Benmage, Pandora, BBmolla

LEANING TOWN:

Staeg, MagnaofIllusion

(Alek - scum)

, DCLXVI, hasdgfas, Starbuck, SnowStorm, StefanB

NULL:

Minimum

(Alek - town)

, kortul, Plum's Yo Mamma, Shadow1psc

(Alek - slight scum)

, Amrun, greenknight, Bvoigt, Mastermind of Sin

LEANING SCUM:

Shinori

(Alek - leaning town)

, Salamence20

IS SCUM:

Mockingjaye, Feysal, Jal

And still no mention .

Why do you not want to give a read on us? Have you just been copying and pasting your reads or something and not noticed?

(If the purpose was to hurt our feelings, mission accomplished :p).

~ Pless

[Eddard Stark]

Oldtown is one of the largest cities in Westeros and is by far the oldest, built by the First Men before the Andal Invasion. It survived the invasion by welcoming the Andals, not resisting them. The city is located in the south-west of Westeros, at the mouth of the river Honeywine where it opens onto Whispering Sound and the Sunset Sea beyond. It is the western terminus of the Roseroad from Highgarden and King's Landing.

Day 1, Votecount 50

Saporerint (5) - Mastermind of Sin, Shadow1psc, BBmolla, Shinori, Albert B. Rampage
Feysal (1) - Starbuck
Shadow1psc (2) - Mockingjaye, bvoigt

bvoigt (9) - greenknight, SnowStorm, Pandora, Seraphim, Plessiezarus, MagnaofIllusion, Plums Yo Mamma, Dolorous Edd, Staeg

StefanB (5) - Regfan, Tyene Sand, Saporerint, Lyanna Stark, kortul
Regfan (1) - DCLXVI
Plums Yo Mamma (2) Benmage, StefanB

Not Voting (3):

Jal, Feysal, Minimum

With 28 alive it takes 15 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 5th September at 11:59pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-05 18:59:59)
  
• Starbuck/Benmage/MOI/Lyanna Stark/Mastermind of Sin are all V/la.

CHOOSE MOUNTAINS

Feysal (9) - Bvoigt, greenknight, Shinori, DCLXVI, Benmage, Albert B. Rampage, Saporerint, Mastermind of Sin, Jal
Minimum (2) - Mockingjaye, MagnaofIllusion
Starbuck (1) - Starbuck
greenknight (1) - Seraphim

DLCXVI (13) - Tyene Sand, Plessiezarus, Regfan, Pandora, Feysal, Lyanna Stark, Kortul, Plums Yo Mamma, Staeg, Dolorous Edd, StefanB, SnowStorm, Shadow1psc

Not Choosing (2):

Minimum, BBmolla

With 28 alive it takes 15 to 'Choose'. Once a choose has 15 votes it will be locked in but not end day.

[kortul]

@

Jal

- your words about compromises and lynches are true, and you even apply this to your CHOOSE vote. Why do you hesitate to apply this to your vote in the VOTE section for several days?

The choose does not require a majority, so please don't vote me under the fallacy that doing so is better than a no-choose. If you think me and feysal are both town just don't choose either of us.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work this way.

Assassin in the Snow:

<...>
A simple majority will lock in an assassin, however if there is no majority then the person with the most votes shall be chosen.

Should two or more people have the same number of votes then an assassin will be randomly determined.

I even checked with mod what would happen if we've choosen and lynched the same person - second in line will be choosen.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm not nearly finished with re-reading, WHO HAS CLAIMED WHAT SO FAR PLEASE?

[kortul]

Longs time ago Starbuck claimed VT, recently SnowsStorm and greenknight claimed masons, DCLXVI claimed VT, Shadow1psc claimed Torturer (roleblocker+rolecop), and StefanB softclaimed VT.

I doubt it will help with reread, but may save time for ISOs.

[StefanB]

One hell of ISO - StefanB is posting without quotes at all, for context i had to open each post and look for possible questions he is answering or relevant posts he is addressing. And sometimes i just don't understand, what exactly he is trying to say, maybe because English isn't first language for both of us

Kortul I will take care of that problem, I may not do it today, but will so after the lynch.
This slot shut be more readable tomorrow.
I won't do anythink now, because it would be a hell of unfairness towards someone else so short before deadline.

But to be more mean.

Unchose
Chose: Kortul

[StefanB]

Argh:
EBP:

Unchose
Chose: Kortul

[Shinori]

##Unvote
##Vote: Bvoigt

I still prefer Saporerint/sala slot.

Gettin scum reads on Staeg again. Partially meta based but also seems that when he is posting it's rarely ever a post that matters in the game. I could ask some random questions but it's not like that would help all that much.

I've been inactive as all hell. Sorry for some reason I haven't had anything click with me to make me love this game yet.

[DCLXVI]

Perfect example of why I feel better about staying on your wagon than jumping to the Feysal wagon, who is the only other viable choice right now even though I'm less confident about him being town than you even though I'd totally trust his choice more than I would yours all things considered.

This is terrible.

-Lyanna thinks that I am more likely to be town than feysal.
-Me and feysal are crossvoting.
-Lyanna says that she would rather trust feysals vote than my vote,

even though she thinks I'm more likely to be town.

This is some very contradictory stuff here.

Lyanna is either retarded or scum. I don't think she is retarded so she must be scum.

[Staeg]

Gettin scum reads on Staeg again. Partially meta based but also seems that when he is posting it's rarely ever a post that matters in the game. I could ask some random questions but it's not like that would help all that much.

Aha. What gave you a townread on me earlier on? Why, exactly, do my posts not matter?

[Tyene Sand]

Not much to defend myself. Not much to claim either. (No PR and I am pretty sure from the crumps I used now and then you can last halway guess the direction of the character) I can die, but since beeing the alternative is not me and I have some unease about the plum/nachohydra against some time (nothing that much concrete, and not enough time to check how much time I mentioned here beside the point in my last post and that is unfortunatly not proven)

Unvote

Vote: Plum

About the choisethink, okay since I got less and less sure about Feysal but Satanscat is sounding like a true claim.

Unchose

But I am not sure who to give it to, Feysal is the main waggon and I more and more think he is town, I won't. Giving the gun to Starbuck seems like a bad idea.

So for my last words: Not yet. In a few hours.
I can only say sorry for inning and at last it would be good for Cersai at last (which should give away who I am)

And please don't give me a gun.

One hell of ISO - StefanB is posting without quotes at all, for context i had to open each post and look for possible questions he is answering or relevant posts he is addressing. And sometimes i just don't understand, what exactly he is trying to say, maybe because English isn't first language for both of us

Kortul I will take care of that problem, I may not do it today, but will so after the lynch.
This slot shut be more readable tomorrow.
I won't do anythink now, because it would be a hell of unfairness towards someone else so short before deadline.

But to be more mean.

Unchose
Chose: Kortul

Dude. You claim VT, give no flavor name, say you are going to be gone for a few hours, and then come back to this answer to kortul and more vague claims? What do you have to hide at this stage? Why is kortul more important than final contributions, rolename included?

I don't like things that confuse me this close to deadline. Speak plainly, we have less than 27h.

[Lyanna Stark]

Perfect example of why I feel better about staying on your wagon than jumping to the Feysal wagon, who is the only other viable choice right now even though I'm less confident about him being town than you even though I'd totally trust his choice more than I would yours all things considered.

This is terrible.

-Lyanna thinks that I am more likely to be town than feysal.
-Me and feysal are crossvoting.
-Lyanna says that she would rather trust feysals vote than my vote,

even though she thinks I'm more likely to be town.

This is some very contradictory stuff here.

Lyanna is either retarded or scum. I don't think she is retarded so she must be scum.

Eh...no. Thanks for playing. Both your premises are wrong and are built on your misunderstanding of my position, which largely comes from your selective reading.

If you had read my first post in full instead of just the first sentence you would see that I don't like the feysal choose wagon either. My choice for you is, as shadow stated earlier, an active choice to make sure feysal is not chosen. And yes, I'm making this choice even though I'm more confident that you'll flip town than he will. This does not mean I have a scum read on feysal, as I said I don't have a read on feysal right now nor do I have a strong town read on you. If I had a scum read on feysal I'd be choosing him, no doubt, but I don't.

I said I would be more trusting of who feysal would choose over you, not vote.

This post right here that I'm responding to is yet again another example of why I'm actively choosing not to send feysal in favor of you. You have selectively responded to, misinterpreted, and used faulty premises to come to a faulty conclusion that doesn't take into account the entirety of play. I've seen you do that with other reads.

There are exactly two viable choose wagons right now. I'm not happy with either of them, nor do I have strong reads on either of them, so I have to look at who I would prefer to choose based on something else - namely your contribution in this game and my past experience with you both. Feysals contribution has been more comprehensive compared to yours, and I know that feysal is a careful player. In GvE, he was a big reason our town ultimately won and we were able to work together in lylo to make the right choice at the end. I don't have that kind of positive experience with you (I don't think youre a bad player, but a couple of your choices in otherworld make me a bit wary).

Is it fair? Probably not. Does it suck? I'm sure it does, and I'll feel really bad if it turns out that feysal is scum. But as long as I believe there's a chance that feysal is town, I'm not going to make it more likely for him to be chosen today.

[Lyanna Stark]

Meh. Okay Regfan. I just read his iso twice and haven't found a compelling reason not to vote.

VOTE: stefanb

I don't really understand why you would vote for Stefan over bvoigt here. You don't seem to have a read on either one (unless I'm misinterpreting "haven't found a compelling reason not to vote"?), and bvoigt is surely a more viable lynch at this point?

Sheeping regfan a little, and being a little resistant on the bvoigt front. I just finished playing with bvoigt in a game where he was scum and he and his partner spent weeks tunneling on me and trying to get me mislynched. I'm trying very hard to be impartial here and read him accurately but I'm having trouble. There's not a marked difference in his play, but there is some, and I'm kind of stuck in waffleville at the moment. For instance he gave me a town read and asked for my opinion of shinori, who was one of his partners in the game we just finished. This makes me feel positive about him since he's working with the town and not going the undermining route; however, then I worry he's just taking the opposite approach with me as he did as scum previously but then think I'm being paranoid about that. Yeah, I know. I need to think, and read his ISP again. But most likely if he's still the most viable wagon when I get home tonight, and by this point I think he will be, I'll be switching regardless.

[Saporerint]

No, you said that this lynch was objectively better because he claimed VT. Starbuck had claimed VT earlier, with a less momentum on her wagon, but it was still there. The thing is, you're trying to justify Steph as the objectively better lynch in a game of mafia. Almost nothing is objective in mafia.

I think we are differing in what we mean by "objective." Put it this way -- the least worst case scenario is to lynch StefanB (because WCS is lynching a VT). Getting yet-another claim, which may not be VT, offers a worse worst case scenario and additional risk. The fact that I consider bvoight a strong town read and StefanB a strong scum read amplifies this risk difference, but the risk difference is there regardless (i.e., UNLESS you consider StefanB significantly more town than bvoight). This is what I mean by "objective."

The contrast with Starbuck is mainly that she was not scummy. YMMV on that, I guess. If you think that both are comparably scummy, then the Starbuck and Stefan cases are objectively similar (except that you might have wanted to give everyone a chance to post before ending D1, etc).

Getting everyone to claim D1 to find the scum who might have a sketchier fakeclaim or something is not a good town strategy. There's a reason why we don't all massclaim at the start of D1.

- Iec

[DCLXVI]

Perfect example of why I feel better about staying on your wagon than jumping to the Feysal wagon, who is the only other viable choice right now even though I'm less confident about him being town than you even though I'd totally trust his choice more than I would yours all things considered.

This is terrible.

-Lyanna thinks that I am more likely to be town than feysal.
-Me and feysal are crossvoting.
-Lyanna says that she would rather trust feysals vote than my vote,

even though she thinks I'm more likely to be town.

This is some very contradictory stuff here.

Lyanna is either retarded or scum. I don't think she is retarded so she must be scum.

Eh...no. Thanks for playing. Both your premises are wrong and are built on your misunderstanding of my position, which largely comes from your selective reading.

If you had read my first post in full instead of just the first sentence you would see that I don't like the feysal choose wagon either. My choice for you is, as shadow stated earlier, an active choice to make sure feysal is not chosen. And yes, I'm making this choice even though I'm more confident that you'll flip town than he will. This does not mean I have a scum read on feysal, as I said I don't have a read on feysal right now nor do I have a strong town read on you. If I had a scum read on feysal I'd be choosing him, no doubt, but I don't.

I said I would be more trusting of who feysal would choose over you, not vote.

This post right here that I'm responding to is yet again another example of why I'm actively choosing not to send feysal in favor of you. You have selectively responded to, misinterpreted, and used faulty premises to come to a faulty conclusion that doesn't take into account the entirety of play. I've seen you do that with other reads.

There are exactly two viable choose wagons right now. I'm not happy with either of them, nor do I have strong reads on either of them, so I have to look at who I would prefer to choose based on something else - namely your contribution in this game and my past experience with you both. Feysals contribution has been more comprehensive compared to yours, and I know that feysal is a careful player. In GvE, he was a big reason our town ultimately won and we were able to work together in lylo to make the right choice at the end. I don't have that kind of positive experience with you (I don't think youre a bad player, but a couple of your choices in otherworld make me a bit wary).

Is it fair? Probably not. Does it suck? I'm sure it does, and I'll feel really bad if it turns out that feysal is scum. But as long as I believe there's a chance that feysal is town, I'm not going to make it more likely for him to be chosen today.

Tl;dr

You said that you think I am more likely to be town, yet are choosing me over feysal, one long post doesn't change that obvious contradiction.

If I am more likely to be town why the hell would you rather want me dead?

As far as my play in otherworld, my play in that was fine besides the use of my pr. Let's see, I hammered scum day1 (I correctly chose red instead of mos) and then after you died I was the one who went through the trouble to re-read your iso and find your breadcrumb.

[kortul]

So for my last words: Not yet. In a few hours.
I can only say sorry for inning and at last it would be good for Cersai at last (which should give away who I am)

And please don't give me a gun.

Kortul I will take care of that problem, I may not do it today, but will so after the lynch.
This slot shut be more readable tomorrow.
I won't do anythink now, because it would be a hell of unfairness towards someone else so short before deadline.

One moment you are resigned to die, and several hours later you are sure to be more readable and be able to do something on Day 2. That's the spirit.

On a more serious note that means that i don't really believe your claim now. You posted something 2 hours later, which means that your claim post wasn't the last chance to post during the day, and wagons don't grow on trees when there's night in US and deadline is nearly 2 days ahead. Though, do you, by chance, remember any other games where you've done the same in a similar situation?

[Saporerint]

If you go back and reread Stefan, it's pretty clear what character he is softclaiming here. Which is a bit weird, since that character seems a rather unlikely member of the Lannister Alliance (in this book).

It looks like Tyrion to me:

To make it short.

I can only say sorry for inning and at last it would be good for Cersai at last (which should give away who I am)

And Tyrion is basically Aegon-aligned in ADWD from what I understand (i.e., only have wiki-tier knowledge of books 3-5).

- Iec

[Shadow1psc]

On a more serious note that means that i don't really believe your claim now. You posted something 2 hours later, which means that your claim post wasn't the last chance to post during the day

Seriously, you've been misrepping people all game. You either have very poor selective reading, or you're scummy scum mcscummerson. I like to start my first impressions of people as "they're probably not that dumb, they're probably scum", and work down. Ergo, if you're town, you need to read more thoroughly, or not join 28 player games.

[Lyanna Stark]

Tl;dr

You said that you think I am more likely to be town, yet are choosing me over feysal, one long post doesn't change that obvious contradiction.

If I am more likely to be town why the hell would you rather want me dead?

As far as my play in otherworld, my play in that was fine besides the use of my pr. Let's see, I hammered scum day1 (I correctly chose red instead of mos) and then after you died I was the one who went through the trouble to re-read your iso and find your breadcrumb.

You just keep proving my original point. There is no big glaring contradiction, you just don't like my conclusion, and I don't blame you for that. I wouldn't like it either.

I think there's a chance both you and feysal are town, hence not liking either wagon.

I'm a little more confident in my belief that you will flip town, but this does not negate my belief that feysal will likely flip town.

All things considered, I'd prefer to take the chance with feysal for the reasons stated so I'm not going to take an action that will put feysal out of the game, a player I view as an asset if town.

Your day one hammer was a good choice; however, your day three quick hammer of pere based on a soft claim before he could even post or have a discussion over whether or not the night action proved he was scum was not. Your use of your pr was actually a bit funny, but not fussing up before massclaim was a bad idea. Neither of these actions hurt town as town did great in that game, but its part of what factored into my choice, as they had the potential to.

I think you have me confused with plum. I replaced into a scum slot and lurked and found out people had strong scum reads on my predecessors and lurked some more before being lynched.