A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Eddard Stark]

Scumhunter replaces Starbuck. Welcome him to the game

[Jal]

Also, I've sent in my Jailkeep. Will say more stuff later.

[Lyanna Stark]

I...don't have a case. I was merely noting your voting/choosing patterns along with Feysal's because CDL listed you both as scum. Considering, as I said, he listed one of his partners as scum in the scum game he provided it could point to a pattern as some people do feel the need to list one of their partners as scum and make sure to mention them. And, yes even though you want to argue against it, some scum also feel the need to give their partner a vote early in the game/soon after replacing in. Your arguing that he wouldn't irrelevant if it's a type of behavior that he engages in. It's not an exact science and is why I asked if anyone had any experience with scum DLC before.

For the rest, why am I having to spell out the obvious?

1. I didn't defend you; I was mistaken. I defended Mockinjaye for not voting when Edd was saying it was suspicious. So, I'm not a hypocrite. Yay! I think it's quite obvious that if I'm saying that an action is suspicious now. It's an acknowledgement of a previous stance that (I thought) I was reversing.

2. This one is even more surprising that you need spelled out. Feysal was the only other available wagon counter to DCL. Feysal had 8 votes and DCL had 12. You added a vote to the Feysal wagon. Well now that DCL flipped scum, it looks like you tried to throw momentum onto the counter wagon. This doesn't need to be explained as it's self explanatory. It's like when Zdenek brought up a post of mine and said if bvoigt flips scum then it would weaken the town read on me. I knew exactly what he meant because it looks like I avoided the bvoigt wagon and gave him a weak distancing read. I didn't have to ask for clarification because I knew and answered directly for what I did, and since you've played mafia before I have to believe that you would already know this bit about counterwagons so I'm really not following on why you needed it explained.

More of a case, meaning, you have more of a point to make.

For the rest of your post, don't try to turn this back on me. Spell it out for me, eh?

I had to make you aware of your mistake. Also, I never called you a hypocrite or even insinuated it, so stop that bullshit now. Yeah, when you say stuff which isn't true, expect to be both asked and called out about it. Get over it. Your over-defensiveness of having me point this out to you is scummy as shit. The other problem is, it's that you feel a need to almost somehow distance yourself from me. There's no reason, at all, to bring up how tried to defend me to Edd even though you're wrong.

This

is odd and I don't like it one bit.

For the next part, I'll ask this: Other than choosing Feysal towards the end of the day, in what way would you say I was actively trying to get momentum for his lynch instead of DCL?

Also, did you go back through and reread the part where I said DCL leans town, or did you ISO me?

Oh my gawd this is so delicious I'm actually replying to this idiocy from a bar.

I'd like for you to spell out what you think I turned back on you. Like really spell it put slowly because apparently were playing two different games. I explained myself and my position to you. You don't like that? Too bad.

I have no problem whatsoever that I made a mistake. I said I defended the wrong person. I'd l,Ike for you to explain to me what benefit you think I made by making a mistake in who I defended yesterday. Do you even pay attention to the shit you right. There is absolutely none...zero...scumminess in me thinking I defended you when I actually defended something else, do you actually think you found scum because I mixed up who I defended. Do you seriously think I was defensive? What pray tell would I be defensive about and what do you think you caught? And seriously what is your problem? I exhibited exactly none on the defensiveness scale because I don't have anything whatsoever to be defensive about. Though I am now annoyed...so congratulations?

But you're not looking so good.

I'm distancing myself from you?

Oh my god. Go back to road to Rome you still have a lot to learn doll.

[Plums Yo Mamma]

Plum here. Plum has a new crazy schedule at college, and Nacho has done some posting. Hopefully this will be useful.

Zdenek is fairly scummy. BBMolla says not but well I have a heart and a gut all my own. Also Nacho's (Nacho feels less strongly about Zdenek). But he is not EXCITING NEWS scummy, so in tags as not to distract from that.

Spoiler: Some discussion of Zdenek's posting today

On a related note: the hydra dissonance has to end, and if it doesn't we start lynching them. We have to eventually be able to hold these slots accountable for their reads.

Dear Lord why.

VOTE: Snowstorm. The level of crap being posted by yours truly has reached the point of no return.

This is just incredibly bad for MoI - he's voting some one for posting crap rather than for being scum.

This is just ridiculously disingenuous. The whole post smacks of contrived reasons to say something about MoI - which amounts after a couple of paragraphs to the useless 'Townreads on MoI aren't so warranted'. Seriously.

Vote: Pandora

Choose: Pandora

Fuck anonymous hydras.

MoS isn't reading the thread, and this is a pretty silly policy lynch and he's proposing while there is reasonable discussion going on.

And who's the guy who just suggested a policy-lynch of hydras doing hydra things that make them 'less easy to read'?

And my gosh, everyone ignored our initial case on bvoigt. Seriously. Basically, too much looks too disingenuous for me to be letting this go any time soon. The whole thing, especially the attacks on Tyene, smack of setting up conventional 'tell parameters' of a sort to make his attacks seem sound. They are not. They ignore crucial and obvious factors.

Kortul is pretty damn scummy Day 2. This is more exciting, but this time I'm saving the best stuff for dessert.

Saporeint, i would like to hear the whole explanation, once you will clear it with the mod. And on day 2. Though, for now i fail to see what discussion can lead to this question from town. Still, if you are town, there would be at least two scum parties on you anyway, so there's no reason to hide the information.

Edd, BBmola, are you in a hurry? I think we should hear Saporeint story today. And also give those MIA time to pick up their prods (in case more replacements will be needed), and if there are no more strong objections on jailing Shinori, allow a day or two for everyone to actually send their jail PM votes. Bvoigt wagon isn't going to run away.

This whole post reeks (pun not initially intended) of over-concillatory, artificial reaction to what happened with Saporient's post. It feels like Sapo has absolutely no idea how to deal with what many other players are treating as a sort of scumslip. He's very careful to say that he does want the explanation and we should hear it. He's also super careful to appear to think that Saporient probably doesn't have an explanation that can explain why this happened.
Pless+Zar is worthy of serious attention. Basically, none of this feels right. If Kortul scum, Saporient is not aligned with him. I don't feel uncomfortable giving Saporient the benefit of the doubt for the nonce, as it happens.

Well, last answer from Saporeint doesn't explain anything for me. I hate losing confidence in my reads, and was mulling on possible scenarios for some time, but still don't see good town explanation. Guess, he is scum after all, unless his full claim will suddenly make sense and shed a light on his intentions.

So: dessert is Plessiezarus. Note first this:

Meh.

UNVOTE

. This is yet another claim I don't really believe, but ...

My gut feeling is that bvoigt is lying about his claim, but it's poor play to risk it on D1.

... right.

Okay, fine, sensible. Plessiezarus had a significant scumread on bvoigt for much of the day, much as Nacho and I did. Note merely that the Pless head expressed serious doubts about Bvoigt's claim of (Town) Odd-Night Vig. He says nothing about how Shadow's claimed power might relate to this. Now, in the next relevant post:

So I kind of still want to lynch bvoigt, but if Shadow uses his role on him tonight, he'll know if the claim is true and he'll also block him. That could save us from lynching an innocent bvoigt or from an evil role use. I don't know who else I'd lynch though. Maybe Shinori or Feysal.

I don't understand why you (or MoI, for that matter) thinks this is the best way to go. Vig is already a provable role. We'll likely know if bvoigt is lying or not tomorrow, if he uses his kill. If Shadow blocks him, then we'll only know that Shadow

claims that

bvoigt is a Vig. And if bvoigt is a (town-aligned) Vig, we'll have missed out on a chance to shoot scum.

I really don't want to test one claim I doubt by having to rely on the word of a second player whose claim I'm also not inclined to believe.

Have you commented on Shadow's claim yet? Oh, right, no. Have you commented on

anything

since your alleged Mason partner claimed? Any thoughts on the people who were voting for him? Why has the fact you've (apparently) stopped hiding your role made you

even less talkative or helpful

?

~ Pless

Pless head argues against using Shadow's power to test bvoigt's. He believes it will prove itself on the same level that Shadow's power can (i.e. if the kills match up with bvoigt's claim then we know he has some Vig power presumably), because it will block a Town-Vig kill if that's what it is (remember Pless expressed significant skepticism that bvoigt was truly a Town Odd-Night Vig), and because he doesn't much trust Shadow.

At this point, to the best of my Ctrl-F ability, Plessiezarus has a null read on Shadow (maintained through the game to that point and restated after his claim) and no discussion of his claim, its likelihood, whatever (he did state significant suspicion of the Mason claims, which I now raise my eyebrows at).

He makes no statement about bvoigt's claim as it might have been influenced by Shadow's claim.

3. Do you think bvoigt and Shadow are scum together?

I certainly don't think it's impossible. (And of course, they don't even have to be scum

together

for Shadow to potentially lie about the role.)

Do you think a plan that relies on Shadow being town-aligned, not role-blocked and surviving the night is a sure-fire approach?

Bvoigt is scum. Investigation returned

no active role

.

Weird. Didn't bvoigt claim vig after you'd already claimed your role? Seems a pretty reckless move on his part if so. Obviously happy to vote for him though (won't yet -- still rereading and trying to analyse the Stefan and DCLXVI wagons from yesterday).

Now on Day 2 Pless - yes, all Pless head - makes a statement of surprise at bvoigt's claim in relation to Shadow's claim???

This would mean that despite Pless' strong suspicion of Bvoigt even after his claim, he made no evaluation of the plausibility of it as a claim vs. it as a fakeclaim in light of what he apparently considers relevant circumstances.

This would mean that after expressing significant doubt of bvoigt's claim initially he gave a lot of weight to the possibility of a null-read of his screwing over an investigation of bvoigt's abilities.

For this to make much sense, Pless would have had to not really consider the possibility of Shadow-Town, bvoigt scum despite having a null read on Shadow and a scumread on bvoigt.

EBWOP: Yeah, bvoigt claimed Vig in 1461. But Shadow had already claimed Torturer in 1321. So a pretty reckless move, I'd have thought. Guess he felt had to claim something though - the wagon on him was pretty big at that point.

~ Pless

Pless' approaches to bvoigt's claim don't fit into a picture of consistency or thoughtfully evolving insights. I may be wrong. But.

I don't feel really good about this. But I am not comfortable with the fact that Pless doubted bvoigt after the claim, then argued significantly against testing the claim with Shadow's power by suggesting doubts on

Shadow

, on whom he and they did not have a scumread and on whose claim he and they did not comment, then argued Day 2 that there should have been less doubt on bvoigt's initial claim because of Shadow's power's bearing on that.

Nacho also has more general feelings about Plessiezarus which I believe have significant merit, but I'll let him word them himself, probably. Mostly I will say something closely related: he wallposted some impressive amounts dissecting people and wagons. Came out with a moderate amount of weak read-related information. I guess the way they admit to their 'disappointing' amount of null reads is candid and mildly Townish. But a lot of their stuff has been paragraphs for nullreads.

Nacho and I haven't sent our jailkeep and stuff yet, unless he has.

Intent to vote bvoigt &c. goes here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Plum / Nacho

- I may have a question for you. I need to carefully review the thread so it will have to wait til morning. I may also be extra cryptic when I ask it. Stay tuned and tingly with anticipation

Also regarding your Plessie case - to quote the grand philosopher Homer Simpson - "I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter".

[Lyanna Stark]

For the next part, I'll ask this: Other than choosing Feysal towards the end of the day, in what way would you say I was actively trying to get momentum for his lynch instead of DCL?

Also, did you go back through and reread the part where I said DCL leans town, or did you ISO me?

Oh totally forgot to answer this question here. Um no *wide eyed* I totally did not iso you at all. I didn't catch that. I just rambled off base shit.

Of course I iso'd you. What kind of question is that. Yes, you said he was leaning town, congratulations. That does not negate the fact that you chose the counter wagon to scum.

Deal with it.

You might note that I didn't say you were scum because of it. There's this little thing in mafia in which we examine the actions of people in relation to scum. And when your actions look suspicious, they get noted. Your defensive act here is ridiculous because you're acting as if I'm voting for you and calling you scum, instead of as I said noting the actions of the individuals whom DCL listed as scum. Is that coming across? Do I need to type slower? Cuz I totally will.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Tammy ... is this one of those bitter tunneling deals you sometimes do that you will regret later if Jal isn't scum?

[Lyanna Stark]

No, the weird thing is I've not even called Jal scum. I'm actually kind of at a loss for Jal's reaction to me. The only reason why I even posted anything about Jal was because DCL listed her and Feysal as scum, so I examined both of their actions in regard to yesterday's vote and ended it with a statement that looking at scum patterns wasn't an exact science and asked if anyone had any experience with DCL scum. I even acknowledged and apologized for making a mistake in my first post.

She reacted badly to a really innocuous post, and then seemed oddly offended that I claimed to defend her when I didn't. I said yay I wasn't a hypocrite because it wasn't actually her I defended but mockinjaye, and she totally lost her shit on that. I have absolutely no clue why.

I'm just at a loss at her reaction to it and me, so I'm gonna probe it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, carry on.

[Magua]

Scumhunter replaces Starbuck. Welcome him to the game

*replaces out*

Anyways, I started reading Day 1, and got to page 8 and then said screw it, and jumped to the end of Day 1 and read Day 2. I may go back and read Day 1 someday, but today is not that day.

Let's start with my strong/obvious reads, shall we?

Town

Shinori:

Unbelievably town; don't think anyone's disagreeing with me here. All the people who are like, "Why'd you say anything?" are dumb. All the people who are like, "You should say it now," are dumber. Like, seriously dumb. No, seriously, strongest town read ever, even stronger than Shadow.

Shadow:

I've personally seen Shadow bus his buddy in multiball in the worst way imaginable (in Kingdom Hearts), so I know he's capable of doing it, but I was able to twig him as scum trivially easy there, and I'm not getting the same read from him here. Also, figuring he learned from his experience and would not be eager to repeat it.

Zdenek:

God, I loved playing against him in War in Heaven III when I was scum and he was town, and he managed to just rub everybody the wrong way, and I see him doing it here. I do skip most of his posts, though, because my limit for quote-striping is about on par with a snail's limit for salt, but he's still town.

Dolorous Edd:

Probably the only person who posts walls who I actually have any incentive to read (well, sometimes). Not much meta-experience with Ser Arthur Dayne, but At the very least, whilst reading, I come up with an opinion, and then a few posts later find that he's posted it, which is good enough for me (very low bar).

Plessiezarus:

Sort of like Dolorous Edd, but weaker. I can stomach most of their posts. Don't mind the hydra dissonance -- don't understand people getting upset about it.

Null

MagnaofIllusion:

You think I'd be able to read him better with our hydra and all, but no. I'm applying my usual Magna-rule to him: Listen to him (as much as possible) until D4; if he's still alive, lynch him.
(Footnote: His posts read...nicer...to me in this game than in others that I've played in, but I can't tie that to an alignment tell one way or another.)

Regfan:

If I die tonight, Reg is scum. Also, don't agree with his townread on Tierce (see below). But, if this is multiball, even if Regfan is scum he's going to be decent at finding the other team, so they'll inevitably shoot him. So, MagnaofIllusion-lite, as it were.

Saporerint:

At the very least, the jump over the PM-posted-in-thread I don't buy at all, especially the "Why would town ever have any reason to post that?" that I see coming from Tierce and Regfan. I'm not really a believer in scumslips at the best of times, but the way things went -- *especially* Tierce's "That's an obv mispost from a QT" -- read to me like people trying to make hay that isn't there, which makes me think town. Slot hasn't done anything terribly townie, but I got to be me, so I'll settle for the null pile.

Benmage:

Fuck Benmage.

Scumhunter:

Fuck Scumhunter.

Feysal:

I believe I have read Feysal as scum in literally every game that I've played with him[1], so I absolutely do not trust my current opinion of reading him as scum here.

([1] Super-secret-Feysal-towntell from Good vs Evil excepted, because I was reading him as scum up until that point.)

Scum

bvoigt:

Due to (non-)reaction to Shadow's claim against him. Scum-giveup. Yeah, yeah, Captain Obvious, etc, but there you go.

Tyene Sand:

Don't like the way Tierce jumps on things at all. Reads very much like scum trying to mudsling or sow suspicion. There was the bit with Feysal in the first few pages of D1, and then this with saporerint both make me go "no." Also, Regfan has some super townread on Tierce, which, AFAIK, proves my point.

Jal:

Too many wall posts (though there are plenty guilty of that), but too defensive in his posts. It's not about finding scum, it's about proving to others that he's not scum.
(Footnote: I'm assuming Jal is a Westeros-er immigrant)

People who aren't in the list haven't made enough of an impression on me to have an opinion, though I was sorely tempted to put Tammy into the scum pile just to have something to do, but then I realized I'd develop another case of carpal tunnel from holding down the shift key. Given my insufficient number of strong scumreads, that's a little problematic, but whatever, I wasn't supposed to replace in until D3-ish anyways.

I'm sending in my jailkeep vote on one of my townreads listed above (hint: Shinori). Not going to vote bvoigt.

[Shinori]

The the above posted. Someone has me as one of their stronger scum reads actually. I don't know why.

[kortul]

Jal, your presentation of several of my reads is not even close. Vote does not equal scum read, and you yourself said good words about compromises on day 1. If it wasn't intentional and you were just skimming at that moment and all of this is from memory, then take another look. And i have two questions.

So, which do you think are not presented accurately?

You are right about SnowStorm, Shadow1psc, DCL and Salamance - i considered them as scum or leaning scum after the ISOs. greenknight was a compromise choose. I coudn't read StefanB, so initially voted him as a compromise vote as well, though after he posted later during the same day, i changed my mind about his claim and was more sure in my vote. And you somehow put bvoigt into my town reads, and he never was.

By the way, I wanted your opinion about what I said regarding Benmage and his pulling off Bvoigt's wagon. What are your thoughts?

Benmage, let's see. He coudln't decide on wagons once the Snow claimed mason, and from his comments, wasn't happy with current wagons. We were slowly approaching deadline, and On Thursday (1087) he was ready to "lynch bvoigt or sala I dont care at this point." He was all over the place, but it didn't look artificial. And then deadline was extended. He still was jungling votes, but this time i agreed with him, since i wasn't happy with existing wagons either, they were stuck anyway, so with extended deadline there was enough time to look for alternatives.

1147 (Fri): I think a lot of people on the Sala wagon view Bvoigt town... and a lot on the Bvoigt wagon view Sala town. Shit I got a town read on Bvoigt... and I need to relook at Sala but had a town read there too..
1161 (Fri): Unvote vote Bvoigt I guess him over Sala... Sala's post of YES UNDERstAND ME screams town to me.... zzzzzzz.. still think bvoigts town too tho...
1179 (Sat): I'd prefer Shadow over either of these 2. Unvote vote Shadow
1220 (Sun): The icecrint lynch is shattering... and Bvoigt is town. There's plenty of time before deadline, if you think we won't achieve a lynch you're paranoid.

In 1241, that you mentioned, Benmage didn't just called bvoigt wagon bad and asked everyone to vote Shadow. He gave his understanding of why each player was on bvoigt wagon. If he gave false reasons or misrepresented them, that would just reinforce bvoigt wagon, bring attention to Benmage and he would be blamed for misrepresentations. I checked all the players: Nacho switched his vote, green and Snow didn't react, Dolorus Edd switched his vote in the next post, Tyene switched her vote, Pandora didn't want to switch to Shadow, MoI switched his vote, Seraphim disappeared, StefanB switched his vote. So they didn't argue with his understanding of the reasons for vote.

So, my answer is - i like Benmage play in that situation. It is consistent with his previous posts and behavior, he didn't misrepresent or lie about anything, and he pushed a wagon on my suspect over those i wasn't happy about. Yes, it can be interpreted as scummy (hell, after reading opinions of Pless and Plums about me today i feel that any phrase or post can be interpreted as scummy), but i think it was a town action on his part.

[kortul]

Saporeint, i would like to hear the whole explanation, once you will clear it with the mod. And on day 2. Though, for now i fail to see what discussion can lead to this question from town. Still, if you are town, there would be at least two scum parties on you anyway, so there's no reason to hide the information.

Edd, BBmola, are you in a hurry? I think we should hear Saporeint story today. And also give those MIA time to pick up their prods (in case more replacements will be needed), and if there are no more strong objections on jailing Shinori, allow a day or two for everyone to actually send their jail PM votes. Bvoigt wagon isn't going to run away.

This whole post reeks (pun not initially intended) of over-concillatory, artificial reaction to what happened with Saporient's post. It feels like Sapo has absolutely no idea how to deal with what many other players are treating as a sort of scumslip. He's very careful to say that he does want the explanation and we should hear it. He's also super careful to appear to think that Saporient probably doesn't have an explanation that can explain why this happened.
Pless+Zar is worthy of serious attention. Basically, none of this feels right. If Kortul scum, Saporient is not aligned with him. I don't feel uncomfortable giving Saporient the benefit of the doubt for the nonce, as it happens.

At least i learned new words while reading this comment. Because the content itself is nuts, like you were reading and thinking on something else but decided to quote me. I wrote a simple question to Saporeint, saying what i want to hear and why. Period. If i didn't come to immediate conclusion that Sapo is scum and asked a question instead, that's how i play. And it is more clear than yours "I don't feel uncomfortable giving Saporient the benefit of the doubt for the nonce, as it happens".

P.S. And what Pless+Zar has to do with it?

[Tyene Sand]

Okay, bugger that. I can't be bothered to muster the patience to show Zdenek the amount of crap he's throwing in hopes it sticks.

Whatever your alignment: you're wrong. Plum put it quite well, and considering there is a grand total of three people calling me scum, it's going to be a long time before I can be convinced to spend time defending myself from a lynch that's not going to happen.

I think Magua is town. While that post is heavily lacking, I can see the way he achieved some of the non-obvious reads. The main thing I dislike

s

the way some of his reads are connected without substance; going over his read on me, for example, you'd expect him to develop the Regfan line more, but you go back to Regfan and it's just an empty loop. However, I

do

understand how he's getting the read he has on me, and it's called Paranoia Mafia, where I was scum and was blatantly calling out town on not knowing their own role PMs. There's an issue here, Magua--in Paranoia, I was clearly not giving a damn about the players' motivations in doing Stupid Shit. Here I've been trying to reason them out and making up my mind about it.


Iecerint and saporovirus have been online since the PM stuff. So have Faraday and Nexus--they have certainly received info on how to address such a PM concern, if they are actually discussing it with the mods. The fact that they don't see any urgency in sharing it doesn't sit well with me.

The same goes for bvoigt. After that prod dodge, he has been online and hasn't even commented on

anything

? I'm not buying it, and I would lynch him without further questioning at this stage.

Sending in my jailkeep vote. Will compile a list of who has sent votes and post it in a moment.

[Tyene Sand]

BBmolla - unknown

Benmage - sent

bvoigt - unknown

Dolorous Edd - sent

Feysal - unknown, probably unsent

Jal - sent
kortul - sent

Lyanna Stark - unsent

MagnaofIllusion - sent
Magua - sent

Mastermind of Sin - unknown

Minimum - sent

mockingjaye - unsent

Pandora - sent
Plessiezarus - sent

Plums Yo Mamma - unsent

Regfan - sent
Saporerint - sent

Scumhunter - unknown

Shadow1psc - sent

Shinori - unsent

Staeg - sent
Tyene Sand - sent

Zdenek - unknown

That's 10 out of 24. Please don't rush this day phase without their input.

[Lyanna Stark]

Oh my god. Go back to road to Rome you still have a lot to learn doll.

Jal I just realized that you are rather new, and therefore this was really mean. I'm sorry for that, I didn't mean to be mean.

[Eddard Stark]

Prodding Mockingjaye

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scumhunter replaces Starbuck. Welcome him to the game

Oh dear god ... (that does count as a welcome, right? You didn't specify a warm welcome.)

Prodding Mockingjaye

Given that she links pretty strongly vote-count wise to bvoigt I'm not surprised about this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Saporerint: At the very least, the jump over the PM-posted-in-thread I don't buy at all, especially the "Why would town ever have any reason to post that?" that I see coming from Tierce and Regfan.

I'm not really a believer in scumslips at the best of times,

but the way things went -- *especially* Tierce's "That's an obv mispost from a QT" -- read to me like people trying to make hay that isn't there, which makes me think town. Slot hasn't done anything terribly townie, but I got to be me, so I'll settle for the null pile.

In regards to the bolded … remind me again what recent game it was we were NOT Hydraing together in and we debated whether a scum-slip was valid and whoever it was flipped scum and I was right and all in your face about it. I’m being lazy but am pretty sure this actually happened and I’m not imagining it.

([1] Super-secret-Feysal-towntell from Good vs Evil excepted, because I was reading him as scum up until that point.)

This wouldn’t work for you anyway this game …

And frankly he's not displaying it.

Jal: Too many wall posts (though there are plenty guilty of that), but too defensive in his posts. It's not about finding scum, it's about proving to others that he's not scum.
(Footnote: I'm assuming Jal is a Westeros-er immigrant)

Hey look, I’m building a wall post in asking you these questions. Totally ironic!

Would you not have assessed Snowstorm’s play as very similar (too defensive and not worried about finding scum)? Because at a gut level I’m not getting Jal-scum (yes, I am not really reading her that closely) and wonder if this is a “Westros import” symptom.

--

So Plessiezarus – after re-reading Plum’s missive on you as scum I have a question regarding some of your analysis …

(10th vote): MagnaofIllusion: votes for Stefan after Bvoigt's claim in 1468 - no other opinion on Stefan given
(12th vote): BBmolla: votes for Stefan in 1534: no reason given and no prior opinion about him

Here you are allocating scum intent (as indicated in this line from your summary) …

I'm also slightly suspicious of people who joined the wagon with no reasoning, or who seemed to encourage it without ever joining it.

I see you indicting both myself and BB for voting without reason. Yet you are specifically ignoring the context of those votes. Both were made within 12 hours of deadline after bvoigt had claimed Vig.

Are you suggesting that there is some mystery to why I (and BB) moved our vote other than to secure a lynch? You yourself voted for a Town read to make sure no-lynch didn’t happen. What is any different about these two votes than yours or Jal’s other than explanation (it’s deadline and he claimed VT) which frankly were obvious given the circumstances?

[Regfan]

Scumhunter replacing in means this game is going to turn into a trollfest, if I die at some point make sure that everyone ignores everything he says.

Pless, I think most of the people rushing and pushing for the day to end sooner rather than later are doing it because they're too lazy to contribute and are happy for the game to just ride out, don't think it's an alignment tell though. Also I still think Kortul is town, much lesso than yesterday because his play today hasn't been super townish and his Stefan vote wasn't as natural as others but still overall I'd slot him in the town category.

Magua, explain to me why Shinori revealing whatever information he has now is dumb because I don't see it that way at all. Think it's better if everything is just laid out on the table now and we have time to assess it and evaluate it while there's little other discussion points going on. Not just that though but wasting a jailkeep on him over players that are obv-town and actually contributing is stupid as well as the fact that if we reveal it now scum have less chance to plan and react towards it whereas waiting for a future day means scum might be able to work out what he's talking about and know how to deal with it. Oh and you should totally grow some balls and learn how or at least attempt to read me plus you should and better go reread D1, there's a shitload of content there and a lot of obvtown reads to get.

MoI, think the game you're thinking of was Lost Butterflys Scummies game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua, explain to me why Shinori revealing whatever information he has now is dumb because I don't see it that way at all. Think it's better if everything is just laid out on the table now and we have time to assess it and evaluate it while there's little other discussion points going on. Not just that though but wasting a jailkeep on him over players that are obv-town and actually contributing is stupid as well as the fact that if we reveal it now scum have less chance to plan and react towards it whereas waiting for a future day means scum might be able to work out what he's talking about and know how to deal with it. Oh and you should totally grow some balls and learn how or at least attempt to read me plus you should and better go reread D1, there's a shitload of content there and a lot of obvtown reads to get.

MoI, think the game you're thinking of was Lost Butterflys Scummies game.

First off thanks ... that was the game I was thinking of.

In your face Magua!!!!

And I agree with Magua here ... the deaths of Snowstorm and Greenknight (especially him given that DCL could have killed ANY obv-Town he wanted) means that to me there definitely is scum in the obv-Town group. So your "lets protect obv-Town" leaves me a little confused and cold. If obv-Town from Day 1 was such why those two dead? Yes, I understand that it is possible this is Multiball and a obv-Town got protected last Night. That still can happen tonight then.

[Tyene Sand]

Magua, MoI? I believe Minimum and I are the ones saying that there is something wrong with the pseudo-universal obvtown reads, and Tammy and I are the ones who think the mason deaths are somewhat odd and point to scum among those.

(Well yes, Magua is calling me scum, but I still have to see

you

do that.)

[Regfan]

And I agree with Magua here ... the deaths of Snowstorm and Greenknight (especially him given that DCL could have killed ANY obv-Town he wanted) means that to me there definitely is scum in the obv-Town group. So your "lets protect obv-Town" leaves me a little confused and cold. If obv-Town from Day 1 was such why those two dead? Yes, I understand that it is possible this is Multiball and a obv-Town got protected last Night. That still can happen tonight then.

I think it's fairly likely that the mason deaths are both from the same faction with a doc save being on an obvtown from the other faction. I also think the mason deaths are scum attempting to eliminate PoE clearances and prevent a potential cross-kill, think I went into this earlier but scum crossing killing early in a large game like this kills both teams chances of winning so shooting people they're super confident flip town such as masons make sense. At the same time lets say that there's 1 scum in the 'obv-town' pile, blocking them isn't actually a bad move at all since it'd prevent them from sending in the kill which would force scum to either 1) Take a gamble having the 'obvtown' person send in the kill and possibly be blocked or 2) Have their scummier member send in the kill and potentially be caught by a watcher/tracker/alternate roleblocker.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magua, MoI? I believe Minimum and I are the ones saying that there is something wrong with the pseudo-universal obvtown reads, and Tammy and I are the ones who think the mason deaths are somewhat odd and point to scum among those.

(Well yes, Magua is calling me scum, but I still have to see you do that.)

That's wasn't worded the best ... I agree with Magua that Shin should be Jailkept and not reveal his information. And the reason I agree with that stance is I believe the the 'obv-Town' have scum in it.

Minimum isn't really saying that to my mind. They are saying "the strong players are playing meh" which

A. isn't true.
B. is a cop-out excuse for why the Nightkills happened as they did.

So I'll relook at them but I actually see them arguing the opposite of what you are IMO.

[Benmage]

Magua, how do you not have me as the townest of the town?? You know Faraday hates me right?