A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Zdenek]

Well maybe he wouldn't anymore.

[Timeater]

What were they?

[Timeater]

Ohh yeah well if he was scolded maybe he learned his lesson. Anyway I got the impression from him that scumteams should usually be balanced.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 4, Votecount 21

Thor665 (5) - 4nxi3ty, Minimum, Zdenek, Tyene Sand, Lyanna Stark
Timeater (4) - Magua, Feysal, kortul, Regfan

Feysal (6) - Plums Yo Mamma, BBmolla, Pandora, Benmage, AuororusVox, Timeater

Zdenek (1) - Thor665

Not Voting (1):

Shinori

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Deadline

: 9th October at 19:30pm Ireland time. (GMT+1)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-10-09 14:30:47)
kortul is V/la

[Minimum]

Okay, recap for myself
Thor = Jal who was obvtown, check
AurorusVox = MoS who was looking charttown, check
Timeater = The VT town slot check

I'm sorry was someone else claiming all the replacements were obvscum? Minimum you just don't give up do you? Speaking of naive where's your emotional partner or did she catch the same disaster in Dreamland that Quilly got steamrolled under?

Not all the replacements - just Thor, AV and Anxiety. CES is busy.

(You only think Jal is obvtown because she was smart enough to stick to the stuff she had genuine opinions about; this is multiball, you know. Note how this theory explains the weird Edd interactions.)

[Thor665]

-Asking a player why he hasn't replaced out... scumhunting... and when he says the same response I just did... What have you ascertained?(As it'll probably be a few RL days before he posts again... and I'd wager a million hats he doesn't bother with your (imo) useless question when there's so much more to be concerned with.)

-Ah yes weighing in... sorry couldn't stop laughing at the initial pointless redunculous assertion. But uhmm we'll go with Slight town-N/A(forgetwhozedreplaced)-and scum... and once again mention I have much to read if I ever eventually get to it.

1. If it's so meaningless to you, then simply accept my answer of not wanting to tell you my call till after I get his reaction. ::shrug:: Wosrt case you can call it scummily bad scumhunting, best case I get a read, everything inbetween seems Jake for you in any case. If you think there's stuff I should be commenting on that I'm not - you're allowed to ask me about it instead of derp question answering.

2. You smell bad and probably have an ugly face.
Zdenek replaced - pappums rat/Amrun/Seraphim

What do you think of the wagon on me? Is it awesome and makes sense, as those voting say - or is it unsupported and derp as I say?

You don't think that after being caught for something as scum, Feysal would try to correct for that?'

You have examples he's done this in the past?
It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

As far as I can tell, that's because of a misrepresentation on your part of what I said.
[quote="Thor"}Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.

This is multiball, so that's bullSmurf.[/quote]
You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

Because you said:

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

which implies in part that you think he is town, and that you think I am scum for pushing a wagon on town. The argument that he'd be cleared as town because someone scummy is pushing the wagon is wrong because this is multiball. Implying that you needed to have a town read on him before hand.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!

[Thor665]

-Asking a player why he hasn't replaced out... scumhunting... and when he says the same response I just did... What have you ascertained?(As it'll probably be a few RL days before he posts again... and I'd wager a million hats he doesn't bother with your (imo) useless question when there's so much more to be concerned with.)

-Ah yes weighing in... sorry couldn't stop laughing at the initial pointless redunculous assertion. But uhmm we'll go with Slight town-N/A(forgetwhozedreplaced)-and scum... and once again mention I have much to read if I ever eventually get to it.

1. If it's so meaningless to you, then simply accept my answer of not wanting to tell you my call till after I get his reaction. ::shrug:: Wosrt case you can call it scummily bad scumhunting, best case I get a read, everything inbetween seems Jake for you in any case. If you think there's stuff I should be commenting on that I'm not - you're allowed to ask me about it instead of derp question answering.

2. You smell bad and probably have an ugly face.
Zdenek replaced - pappums rat/Amrun/Seraphim

What do you think of the wagon on me? Is it awesome and makes sense, as those voting say - or is it unsupported and derp as I say?

You don't think that after being caught for something as scum, Feysal would try to correct for that?'

You have examples he's done this in the past?
It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

As far as I can tell, that's because of a misrepresentation on your part of what I said.

Considering your push both actions compounded on each other - making a Catch-22 strengthening cycle as well.

This is multiball, so that's bullSmurf.

You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

Seemed pretty clear what I meant to me - and I can't figure out where you think I was saying I had the read *earlier* than that, wanna clarify that?

Because you said:

I see him as obv. town - that seems self explanatory at that stage.
You are pushing the wagon.
You are doing so with questionable logic.
QED

which implies in part that you think he is town, and that you think I am scum for pushing a wagon on town. The argument that he'd be cleared as town because someone scummy is pushing the wagon is wrong because this is multiball. Implying that you needed to have a town read on him before hand.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!


EBWOP - there, that fixes it. You need to use [ not { !

[Zdenek]

You have examples he's done this in the past?

It is my belief that most scum are caught by derp and luck rather than legit tells, I see players occasionally adjust but changing play meta is a difficult task and would usually require you to aim to do it first in town games to establish it as 'meta' in any case. So, if he is changing, the real question is 'is he changing to match his already existing town meta' and if we accept that his town meta and scum meta are now identical...it's still pretty scummy to cite meta as worth anything when trying to lynch him.

I don't need examples of him adjusting his play in the past to think that he would do it now, because it makes sense for him to try to do adjust his play by making sure to have a solid suspect because it's something that he just got caught as scum for failing to do.

The rest of your post is complete bullshit and doesn't apply to what I've been saying because guess what, I'm not citing meta as being worth anything when it comes to reading Feysal, in fact my whole point has been that it isn't.

You seem to have more issue with my town read than with my scumread - which makes your vote shift less sensible, and this also proves no misrep on my part. It does prove that you think my logic is bad, I suppose, but that is meaningless to what you're saying it means.

I think that your town read on Feysal is absolutely bullshit.

The misrep is here:

@Zdenek - this is how your last post reads to me;

I did research on Feysal's scum meta.
It doesn't match his play here.
I would like to lynch him here.
Therefore I'll say the meta doesn't matter because he could have changed it.

The first post is a blatant misrepresentation of why I think Feysal's the meta arguments about Feysal aren't strong. Namely the fact that he was caught as scum for main thing that I see as a difference, not having strong suspects, it's an easy thing to account for, and in attempting to account for it, he could have over done his attack on the Timeater slot.

How does that imply I needed a townread on him beforehand?
How does that logic work when i clearly said I just got the town read right then?
Again, as far as I can tell you're proving that what I've said happened did happen and then acting like it somehow...doesn't?
Oh, it's because you *think* I must have done it beforehand and ignored when I said I didn't, is *that* what is making me scummy? That would make as much sense as I think this case does.

If I'm wrong, please clarify where and how, thanks!

It doesn't make any sense for you to gain a town read on him because I am attacking him because this is multiball. So either you had one on him to begin with or your reasons for having one are garbage.

I do not believe that you are this stupid, so my only conclusion is that you are scum pushing nonsensical bullshit.

Thor is obviously scum.

[Thor665]

It doesn't make any sense for you to gain a town read on him because I am attacking him because this is multiball. So either you had one on him to begin with or your reasons for having one are garbage.

I do not believe that you are this stupid, so my only conclusion is that you are scum pushing nonsensical bullSmurf.

Thor is obviously scum.

Ah, okay, if you repeat bullSmurf enough it totally derails my case and helps yours - natch.
But at least now I know what the case is, it's "Player X is too good to neener-neener-neener"

Which is one of the worst inherent cases in all of Mafiascum no matter how you fill in the blanks, and every time it was ever the case on me I've been town, so...
I like my meta twisting case on you better, it also sounds sexier.

[Benmage]

-Asking a player why he hasn't replaced out... scumhunting... and when he says the same response I just did... What have you ascertained?(As it'll probably be a few RL days before he posts again... and I'd wager a million hats he doesn't bother with your (imo) useless question when there's so much more to be concerned with.)

-Ah yes weighing in... sorry couldn't stop laughing at the initial pointless redunculous assertion. But uhmm we'll go with Slight town-N/A(forgetwhozedreplaced)-and scum... and once again mention I have much to read if I ever eventually get to it.

1. If it's so meaningless to you, then simply accept my answer of not wanting to tell you my call till after I get his reaction. ::shrug::

Wosrt case you can call it scummily bad scumhunting

, best case I get a read, everything inbetween seems Jake for you in any case. If you think there's stuff I should be commenting on that I'm not - you're allowed to ask me about it instead of derp question answering.

Check.
-You don't have a read on Feysal? (all things considered-everything he's said thus.. asking why he hasn't replaced will suddenly manifest a read?? )

[Thor665]

Also, because I hate those cases;

I did some Google-fu, the two most recent completed games I have with Zdenek are Atom Mafia and Mirror mafia.
I was scum in both and he was town in both.

@Zdenek - what is this "better" Thor you're familiar with...is it scum Thor?

=====================

Oh wait, this gets funnier. Looks like in Storm of Swords Thor *was* town...with scum Zdenek, let's look at some interplay;

"Thor has not answered my questions about the "logic loops" that he's claimed that I've made, and yesterday he said that he thought I was town and voted me in hopes of preventing a Feysal lynch. "
Thor changes scum and town reads quickly and without explanation. Scummy Zdenek hops on this.

"[Thor] say

meh to someone who thinks that I am scum, which appears to agree with your feelings, and then you vote for me, providing no reason, when yesterday you thought I was town?"
Again, Thor with sudden reverse reads - look how scummy Thor is.

He also kept demanding that I explain how I saw holes in his logic.

That is, again, SCUM Zdenek responding to TOWN Thor.
Any similarities?
Any evidence of Zdenek expecting me to be "better"?

Knock my socks off everyone.

[Thor665]

Check.
-You don't have a read on Feysal? (all things considered-everything he's said thus.. asking why he hasn't replaced will suddenly manifest a read?? )

I've used that question as scumreads before - again, whether or not you think it's good is meaningless to me.
Yes, I have a read on Feysal, but reads can and do change, and even if they don't I like to give them a chance to be reinforced.

What's yout take on the Zdenek vs. Thor situation?

[Benmage]

What do you think of the wagon on me? Is it awesome and makes sense, as those voting say - or is it unsupported and derp as I say?

I'm fine with seeing you hang.

[Benmage]

Check.
-You don't have a read on Feysal? (all things considered-everything he's said thus.. asking why he hasn't replaced will suddenly manifest a read?? )

I've used that question as scumreads before - again, whether or not you think it's good is meaningless to me.
Yes, I have a read on Feysal, but reads can and do change, and even if they don't I like to give them a chance to be reinforced.

What's yout take on the Zdenek vs. Thor situation?

-What is your read?

-I haven't read your back n forth.

[Thor665]

@Benmage - considering how obviously little you've read of anything, your opinions seem kinda derp to me now. The case on me is explicitly tied in to my opinion on Feysal and has been an ongoing thread in practically half of my posts - how can you want me lynched and have missed that?

[Benmage]

What is your read on Feysal?

[Thor665]

I forget.

How;d you miss it?

[Benmage]

Now your just being useless.. way to be protown(internetsarcasm). I'm being fairly useless yes. I've accepted this. There is a mountain of work to catch up. You clearly know your read, and would be alot easier for you to restate than for me to try and comb through and find it. Plus scumhunting 1-0-1 that I enjoy is getting people to repeat reads or rephrase/bullet the highlights. As reads being jumbled through several posts can be hard to piece together, and easier for scum to wiggle with.

And I've seen plenty of scum appear ego-stubborn

"Oh go back and read I've said it I've said it"

ZzzzZZZ

Like I said. I'm down to see you hang.

[Thor665]

I've called him town.

Why do you have a read on me if you're unaware of that - what have you read from me besides whining that I might be slightly more useless than you?

[Lyanna Stark]

Here is the real deal this game - I start saying you might be scum and your first reaction is to start attacking me as a player. THAT is the mark of a weak player.

I'm going to respond to this once as I'm totally not going to get into a fight with you but as you've been all she started it, it needs to be pointed out.

My first reaction to you was not to attack you as a player. You said you were going to tunnel on me, and I told you to have fun with that. You also compared me to a previous game and said you didn't know why Regfan had a read on me, and I addressed that...sure I pointed out that you read me wrong in the game you compared me to, but neither of these is attacking you as a player. You then said that I was lying about how you read me, and I gave you a summary of your reads towards me which showed that I was not lying. You read me wrong. That is a fact. You even said as much when you admitted that you read me as scum at first. Like this shouldn't be a debate at all. There is no attacking you as a player by pointing out you read me wrong when you actually did. The only only way you could even stretch that I attacked you as a player was me pointing out how ridiculous it was for you to suggest that the three of us who voted for Thor last night was fueled by your interaction with Thor. I'm sorry if you feel like this was attacking you as a player, but I wasn't. I was attacking the notion that your interaction had anything whatsoever to do with our votes. Your response was to immediately start attacking me not only as a person but also as a player. This is absolutely unacceptable, and I feel very sorry for you that you can't see that. You can call me as many names as you want, it won't make the stuff you say true, but I hope it makes you feel like a better person for doing it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Thor - I've barely skimmed your back and forth because I think it's largely meaningless, but I'd like you to answer a couple things.

1. What purpose would scum!Zdenek have for analyzing the meta defense for a wagon that he was already on?
2. Where are you getting that Zdenek had not talked about Feysal before this instance? A quick iso and Ctrl-F demonstrates that Zdenek has talked about Feysal on multiple occasions, earlier coming to the conclusion that he was by PoE likely scum.
3. Did you not recognize that Zdenek was responding to Regfan's meta defense of Feysal in the first place and doing his own research to see if this held water?
4. How in multiball, can you legitimately claim to have a town read on someone, you haven't even iso'd, because you have a scum read on someone who is pushing him?
5. Feysal early on day one discussed how scum often have trouble finding scum and voted someone else for it, discuss how it's implausible that Zdenek could determine that he could be correcting a scum issue of his own.
6. Did you miss the part where Zdenek is NOT saying Feysal is scum because of the meta but is saying that the meta can't be used in his defense because of very plausible issues x, y, z?
7. In your meta comparison of Zdenek and you in past games, did you compare how Zdenek reacts to people as town in addition to how he reacted to you when he was scum?

[Lyanna Stark]

The main reason I find you scummy is, ime, you are much more objective with your reads as town. Here it feels like you are much more concerned with portraying someone's actions as scummy rather than looking at the motivations behind them.

Where do you see this specifically?

In Regfan's attacks against me, mos, and tim.
His overall tone is "this is scum!" and I am not seeing much of "is this scum?" from him; It is like every single argument we make is automatically wrong and scummy, If that makes sense.
Also, tim is correct with his overdeveloped attacks feeling contrived. It feels like Regfan is over-justifying his stances.

Another thing that bothered me is there are times when it looks like he is actively trying to appear the most pro-town -- "everyone we need to be more active" "yeah lets extend deadlines for the replacement"-- stuff that he doesn't neccessarily need to say.

tbh I would prefer a Regfan lynch over Thor at this point yet there has been zero momentum.
.

Have you ever played with regfan as scum though? The thing is I've seen him act this exact way as town, and I've only seen him as scum a few times but it's loads different. When he has a scum read, he has a scum read and while he's willing to change it it doesn't come that easily.

I'm not reading his attack on any of you as scummy though. A little tough maybe and I'm sure that it's frustrating to you (I've been on he end of a regfan scum read so I know that it is) but it doesn't read as scummy to me. I dont think his point on you is accurate as im reading you as genuine and your play is reminiscent of abarat where you were town. Also I don't think the point about mos is right as he did look like he was genuinely trying to read him, and Tim hasn't been around enough to really do enough for regfan to read him but I can see where he's coming from based on scumhunters play.

Regfan as town has a tendency to say stuff that doesn't necessarily need to be said, so I'm not sure how this is a scum tell. The only way I can buy regfan as scum is if since he's taking a break he decided to go all out, but this doesn't make too much sense either as he hates being scum and I doubt he'd be spending this much time on the game or being as forceful with his reads as he is.

[Thor665]

Thor - I've barely skimmed your back and forth because I think it's largely meaningless, but I'd like you to answer a couple things.

1. What purpose would scum!Zdenek have for analyzing the meta defense for a wagon that he was already on?
2. Where are you getting that Zdenek had not talked about Feysal before this instance? A quick iso and Ctrl-F demonstrates that Zdenek has talked about Feysal on multiple occasions, earlier coming to the conclusion that he was by PoE likely scum.
3. Did you not recognize that Zdenek was responding to Regfan's meta defense of Feysal in the first place and doing his own research to see if this held water?
4. How in multiball, can you legitimately claim to have a town read on someone, you haven't even iso'd, because you have a scum read on someone who is pushing him?
5. Feysal early on day one discussed how scum often have trouble finding scum and voted someone else for it, discuss how it's implausible that Zdenek could determine that he could be correcting a scum issue of his own.
6. Did you miss the part where Zdenek is NOT saying Feysal is scum because of the meta but is saying that the meta can't be used in his defense because of very plausible issues x, y, z?
7. In your meta comparison of Zdenek and you in past games, did you compare how Zdenek reacts to people as town in addition to how he reacted to you when he was scum?

This should be amusing.

1. What purpose would town Zdenek who had already obviouslly assessed the situation before voting have in doing so afterwards? You answered this yourself no matter what his alignment was - he was ASKED to. Derp.

2. When did I claim this in any way?

3. I did recognize this, it is meaningless to my reads.

4. Because no one is actually explaining how Feysal is scummy outside of vague "derp, playstyle" type commentary. Even when I asked. If he was scum, then probably a buddy is bussing him, or desperate to hard defend him at this point - in either situation someone should have chimed up to put their stamp on th elynch or to decry it as derp. No one did.

5. For someone screaming about how it's multiball, I am amazed Zdenek doesn't think scum can just scumhunt normally. Again, derp.

6. Did you miss the part where his claim is that Feysal is scumhunting how he scumhunts but that he's doing it as a scum gambit via switching up his meta even though we are in a game type where he can just legit scumhunt regardless?

7. No, because it was meaningless. Zdenek cited meta of his experience with me "Thor is 'better' than this" So all that matters is his interactions with me. The one game we had (a actual predecessor to this one) he, as scum, used functionally the same case on me as he is now. All his other experiences with me are as scum, in which case if I'm 'better' then he should think I'm better as I was in those games if he thinks I'm really scum.

Ergo: he is lying or incredibly bad at this game - what's your take?

[Thor665]

I will say in the games where I was scum and Zdenek was town he thought I was town for the most part, and at least never really attacked me except by noting once how I was perhaps chainsawing/trying to back off of a read (I forget which)

But the scum vs. town situation played out quite different. Natch.

[Lyanna Stark]

Jal obv. town is something I totally don't see considering her pushes on almost conf. town, after they were almost conf. town.

Examples of this?

Jal 1044 - Snowstorm after the mason claim.
Jal 2118 - D. Edd after he'd just dueled scum.

not buying it really...though maybe i need more context, idk

Context:

Snowstorm issue can't remember details of but pretty sure she was still talking to him like a scum rad after saying she believed his mason claim.

But the d. Edd situation is really special. Edd had a scum read on jal and jal had a scum read on edd. Day two was largely lost because bvoigt was scum caught by active role cop night one. Sapo basically scum's lipped on day two and was up to be lynched on day three. However, edd was a day VIG so rather than leave us with another lost day to doing nothing, he challenged sapo to a trial by combat so we could still have a normal lynch. His role and use basically confirmed him as town. Jal, for some reason started an argument with edd over why he didn't choose her for the combat if he suspected her and looked like she was trying to cast suspicion on him for doing so. The argument was intensely silly with her again talking to near confirmed town as if they were scum. In the process she was lashing out in really weird ways at others, and was playing largely reactionary.

This event has been interpreted two ways. There are those who thinks she looks town because scum would never behave the way she did, and there are those who think her behavior was contrived. It looked to some of us that she was arguing for the sake of arguing to look busy. I was trying to determine if her reactionary play and attitude was based on her relative newness to the game and trying to find her way, but she replaced put before I could really solidify that read.