Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[Smashbard]

You know what, TBM? I'm gonna go with you on this. I will defer to your experience. If this is a scum gambit to win the game, good gambit. But I don't see the scum motivation for wanting to tunnel a player for three day phases when you could of just killed him if you were scum that wanted him dead so bad.

Vote: Hiraki

I've let him slide for as long as I had because I had a gutread that told me he was just a power role laying low. But at this point I'm pretty much convinced this set up had nothing more than 2 masons and 2 roleblockers.

[mykonian]

votecount

thebuttonmen (3): 10506670, pappums rat, buldermar
hiraki (2): Thebuttonmen, smashbard
buldermar (1): NJAC

not voting (2): dividizzle, hiraki

With 8 players it is 5 to lynch (4 to no lynch)

deadline is november the fifteenth

[buldermar]

I think if we are both speaking rationally and logically you can agree that every single lynch so far this game was performed against people who were acting anti town and refusing to properly defend themselves or contribute meaningfully to scumhunting as a whole.

Yes, but I disagree that this is always sufficient reason to lynch someone.

So rationally speaking my logic has not been flawed, but rather we have all been victims of a game where the majority of the playerbase were all newer players who didn't have a firm grasp on what it means to be pro town. Even Enigma, the one lynch you have truly opposed this game that went through, was not contributing positively anymore to a town win condition.

I still feel like lynching CE was a fundamental mistake because to me it was obvious that he was town.

I think if we can come to that much of an agreement, regardless of your alignment, I can apologize for my own misgivings and bad attitude thus far this game. Even if we are doomed to lose this game, I don't want you to think negatively of me as a person, and I don't want to think of you as any lesser of a person either. As players you may have no respect for me, and that's fine I suppose. But I feel as if our recent attacks on each other have gotten far too personal, and if we both want a town victory, we should cool our jets and see what reads we can agree on, rather than just harping on each other on what we disagree on.

Deal?

I don't think negatively of you as a person, but I'm frustrated with some of your decisions in this game. I agree that we should cool our jets, as you put it, and focus on trying to win this game still. I think we have a shot at it.

I think Maenara would want us to lynch Dividizzle, or at least give him another objective look and try to see what it was that Maenara saw in Dividizzles possibility of being scum. So I think that's where we should look.

I'm always down for a Dividizzle lynch and have been ever since we lynched Shinori.

[buldermar]

You know what, TBM? I'm gonna go with you on this. I will defer to your experience. If this is a scum gambit to win the game, good gambit. But I don't see the scum motivation for wanting to tunnel a player for three day phases when you could of just killed him if you were scum that wanted him dead so bad.

Vote: Hiraki

I've let him slide for as long as I had because I had a gutread that told me he was just a power role laying low. But at this point I'm pretty much convinced this set up had nothing more than 2 masons and 2 roleblockers.

Ok.
VOTE: Hiraki

[NJAC]

NJAC, since you are here what is your opinion on TBM's hammer yesterday?

His VC looks bad, as I said he supported every mislynch since he replaced in. He also put CE at L-1, and his hammer on Mae was just not necessary as deadline was far enough to get more discussion going on. Also he hammered a player whose top suspected scum was voting for, so it makes no sense at all. I agree he could have tried to push Hiraki lynch instead of hammering to avoid discussion.

Telo's play is also suspect imo, she tunneled CE and voted Mae IIRC.

I don't know what you all think but imho this guy is obvscum. I just don't want to get a quickhammer until we discuss what we've got here, so I'm not voting him yet, but know that I support his lynch.

In other news: what do you think about buldermar?

[NJAC]

@TBM and @Buldermar, do you realize Smash is confirmed mason? Attacking him as town makes no sense. Also he hasn't been wrong alone, we ALL have been wrong with the lynches, so stop ignoring/attacking him and answer his (and other's) questions. Also a claim from your part would be nice...

I'm not attacking him

per se

, I'm pointing out all the retarded things he is saying, some of which is aimed directly at me. Tell me - what questions do I need to answer?

Actually I think the whole thing he was asking was about TBM's "case" on Hiraki, and I realize now there were no questions to you.

But here, some questions to you:

1) Why do you think scums have not NK'ed you when you've been very pro-town and have been in almost everyone's townreads?

2) WRT 1636: I think it's clearly TBM instead of Jun/rat. You choose numbers over Hiraki, and you vote numbers. I'm not sure about dividizzle, he's more null leaning town to me atm. Q: what happened with your case on numbers, do you still think he's scum?

3) You don't vote TBM because Smash was voting him. Q: Was that your true and sole reason to refuse voting TBM or there was another motivation, even when you considered him one of the scums?

4) Why are you following one of your suspected scums (namely TBM) with the Hiraki wagon?

5) What's YOUR case on Hiraki?

[buldermar]

@TBM and @Buldermar, do you realize Smash is confirmed mason? Attacking him as town makes no sense. Also he hasn't been wrong alone, we ALL have been wrong with the lynches, so stop ignoring/attacking him and answer his (and other's) questions. Also a claim from your part would be nice...

I'm not attacking him

per se

, I'm pointing out all the retarded things he is saying, some of which is aimed directly at me. Tell me - what questions do I need to answer?

Actually I think the whole thing he was asking was about TBM's "case" on Hiraki, and I realize now there were no questions to you.

But here, some questions to you:

1) Why do you think scums have not NK'ed you when you've been very pro-town and have been in almost everyone's townreads?

2) WRT 1636: I think it's clearly TBM instead of Jun/rat. You choose numbers over Hiraki, and you vote numbers. I'm not sure about dividizzle, he's more null leaning town to me atm. Q: what happened with your case on numbers, do you still think he's scum?

3) You don't vote TBM because Smash was voting him. Q: Was that your true and sole reason to refuse voting TBM or there was another motivation, even when you considered him one of the scums?

4) Why are you following one of your suspected scums (namely TBM) with the Hiraki wagon?

5) What's YOUR case on Hiraki?

1. Because I've also been more likely to be protected by a protective role.
2. I don't rule it out, but there seems to be no interest in lynching numbers.
3. I also did not want to make a mistake and have scums quickhammer.
4. Honestly I'd rather have Dividizzle lynched - especially because it confirms TBM to be scum if Divi is scum. I'm following because I fear that if I don't, it may lead to someone getting lynched that I consider town, such as myself or you.
5. I don't have one. What do you suggest? That I try to convince the masons to lynch Dividizzle?

[NJAC]

Well I wouldn't mind if you explain a little more about the case on dividizzle and how it relates to TBM.

I think there's only one mason so you must try to convince us the remaining townies instead, and the mason of course, who fortunately has decided to stop arguing with you.

I'm also interested in the hypothetical protective role, I think if there's one then they have useful info for us... But I agree with what you said in 1636 about it's likely there's no other PR in the game, because three scums are too few I think, so your response to my first question is not enough in that case.

[NJAC]

Now that I think it better the protective role has no info and it's pointless in your response, because he has not succeeded... what means mafia has simply not targeted you for some reason, right?

[10506670]

5. I don't have one. What do you suggest? That I try to convince the masons to lynch Dividizzle?

The only person that would remotely support a dividizzle lynch is me. TBM and dividizzle are still my top scum reads. I have no idea about Hiraki, especially since TBM is advocating his lynch.

[dividizzle]

I would like to hear more about this dividizzle case as well. All I hear is fencesitting, which I apologize for doing, but given the terrible mislynches we have all embarked on, maybe we should have done a little bit more fencesitting.

@TBM: Why is not reading the game such a huge scumtell? Sorry if I am slow here.

[TheButtonmen]

Not reading the game and just getting pushing lynches through is basically scum 101. Town players have the motivation to read the game, they worry about mislynches and their looking for scum. Scum players just need lynches.

[buldermar]

Well I wouldn't mind if you explain a little more about the case on dividizzle and how it relates to TBM.

I think there's only one mason so you must try to convince us the remaining townies instead, and the mason of course, who fortunately has decided to stop arguing with you.

I'm also interested in the hypothetical protective role, I think if there's one then they have useful info for us... But I agree with what you said in 1636 about it's likely there's no other PR in the game, because three scums are too few I think, so your response to my first question is not enough in that case.

Well the 2nd part of the response would be that nightkills are WIFOM. You can't deduce that player A is scum because player A has been most pro-town and didn't get killed - not even in an open setup with no power roles.

I made an error and temporarily forgot that there is only one mason left. The fact that it relates to TBM is quite simple: Dividizzle did not hammer TBM when TBM was on L1 and Dividizzle was online, therefore TBM must be scum if Dividizzle is scum, and Dividizzle must be town if TBM is town. We don't want to lynch town-TBM to confirm town-Dividizzle, but we do want to lynch scum-Dividizzle to confirm scum-TBM. Makes sense?

[buldermar]

Not reading the game and just getting pushing lynches through is basically scum 101. Town players have the motivation to read the game, they worry about mislynches and their looking for scum. Scum players just need lynches.

This applies to most games, but not this one. If you want an example look at CE.

[buldermar]

^^ Or shinori.

[buldermar]

@mod

hiraki did not post for over 5 days. Please prod.

@mod
Now 6 days+.

[dividizzle]

Buldemar, your logic is incomplete.

If TBM is town then I must be town agreed. But if TBM is scum it wouldn't prove that I am scum.

If I were scum it would prove that TBM is scum. Me being town doesn't prove that TBM is town.

You wanting to lynch me ignores the option of Div(town) and TBM(scum), which is consistent in either scenario.

[buldermar]

Buldemar, your logic is incomplete.

If TBM is town then I must be town agreed. But if TBM is scum it wouldn't prove that I am scum.

If I were scum it would prove that TBM is scum. Me being town doesn't prove that TBM is town.

You wanting to lynch me ignores the option of Div(town) and TBM(scum), which is consistent in either scenario.

Dear Dividizzle

I'm sorry that you so utterly fail to read. I'm also getting annoyed with having to repeat every post I make because you and others fail to comprehend even simple sentences. Please, do learn to fucking read, seriously.

therefore TBM must be scum if Dividizzle is scum, and Dividizzle must be town if TBM is town.

This states:
IF
Dividizzle=scum
THEN
TBM=scum

AND

IF
TBM=town
THEN
Dividizzle=town

Do you see me write "If TBM=scum"? Do you see me write "If Dividizzle=town"? No? So, my kind friend Dividizzle, it is not my logic that is incomplete, but your reading abilities.
VOTE: Dividizzle
Because you're scum, not because you fail to read.

[TheButtonmen]

Hiakri>Numbers>Other for lynches.

Divi is a terrible lynch for today, he's conf town.

[TheButtonmen]

Stop trying to move the wagon Bul.

[dividizzle]

Dear Buldermar,

In case you were wondering, incomplete is different than incorrect. Incomplete refers to the fact that you DIDN'T write those options. Thus you were absolutely ignoring several possibilities while pretending that me and TBM are somehow inextricably linked. It tickles me that in the same sentence you would point out what you DIDN'T do and then defend yourself for not having used INCOMPLETE logic. So instead of falsely accusing my reading abilities, perhaps you should stop trying to misrepresent cases. Trust me, you aren't some super-genius that is forced to stoop to the level of us normal humans.

[TheButtonmen]

pretending that me and TBM are somehow inextricably linked.

We are linked, it's lylo and you didn't hammer me that's what makes you conf town.

[buldermar]

Dear Buldermar,

In case you were wondering, incomplete is different than incorrect. Incomplete refers to the fact that you DIDN'T write those options. Thus you were absolutely ignoring several possibilities while pretending that me and TBM are somehow inextricably linked. It tickles me that in the same sentence you would point out what you DIDN'T do and then defend yourself for not having used INCOMPLETE logic. So instead of falsely accusing my reading abilities, perhaps you should stop trying to misrepresent cases. Trust me, you aren't some super-genius that is forced to stoop to the level of us normal humans.

Dear Dividizzle,

I shall once again repeat myself.

You and TBM are inextricably linked, as explained in three previous posts made by me. No possibilities were omitted in my analysis. In case you disagree, feel free to provide an example of a forgotten or ignored possibility.

Thank you for your time and understanding.

Sincerely,
Buldermar

[buldermar]

Hiakri>Numbers>Other for lynches.

Divi is a terrible lynch for today, he's conf town.

You're biased because you'll obv argue from the vantage point of you being a confirmed town which, in turn, makes Dividizzle a confirmed town.

[TheButtonmen]

I'm town it's fine.

Stop dillydalling around and lynch Hikari.