Kingmaker II-Game Over


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Post Post #225 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:16 am

Post by pablito »

spectrumvoid wrote:While Glork's comments are irritating, I'm not sure they show that he's scummy. It sounds more like someone being immature.
Immature? Hell no. Glork has a great record and is trying to improve on his performance from Kingmaker the first. He knows what he's doing and we just need to point to the first game to show what Glork is capable of. It'll only take time before he gets back to his call of greatness. He's misguided for voting me, but I trust him.

I think he's just a little heartbroken right now because his reputation has preceded him. But just give him a chance at being king and he'll make things right. And how does anyone know that his current gameplay isn't a new strategy of his to out scum? It would be tough to find scum the same way in this kingmaker as the last one, so he's surely trying some new crap. Just because he isn't explicitly expressing his suspicions, it doesn't mean he's taking mental notes on everyone.

I think it's time for a
vote: ubertimmy
for getting away with extreme lurking and only saying three words this whole game.
Sup, later.
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Post Post #226 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:19 am

Post by Thok »

Um, yeah.
vote pablito
, way too certain that Glork is town, and way too much sucking up to Glork.
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Post Post #227 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:38 am

Post by Glork »

:shock:
I don't get it. Did Pablito just guarantee that I'll find scum if I'm made King?



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Post Post #228 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:43 am

Post by pablito »

Sigh, I guess Glork didn't get the chocolates from "secret admirer".

I in no way made a guarantee for you, Glork. That's just your assumption and interpretation. "Make things right" was an ambiguous statement. Interesting insinuation though.
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Post Post #229 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:49 am

Post by Ameliaslay »

It would be hard not to insinuate that... so not so much interesting...
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Post Post #230 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:12 am

Post by Glork »

pablito wrote:Sigh, I guess Glork didn't get the chocolates from "secret admirer".
You mean those didn't come from Amelia? :cry:


Also, you said that I would "get back to [my] call of greatness" and that I would "make things right." If that doesn't imply "execute scum," I'd *REALLY* like to know what you mean.
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Post Post #231 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:30 pm

Post by Vaughn »

Let's see...

My experience from KM1. To be honest, I lurked like a bad mofo in that game. I only started picking up the slack in the end when it was down to me and viking. PJ really did drive us to get as far as we did. The Bussing that vikingfan did didn't set well with me. <-- imho, lost us the game)

Now, I'm keeping a close eye on PJ due to the fact that he was so great as scum last game. I want to beleive he's on our side this game, but we all know that PJ is very capable of deceiving us all.

As for Thok, well, I'm not laying down a double-standard, because I also know that he's up their with PJ when it comes to experience and skill. However, I know first hand how PJ-scum thinks, whilst Thok, not so much.

Comment on cardboardbox's "Let's out the Kingmaker" strat:

It doesn't work, due to the change in Kingmaker role (as Yos said).

Comment on the pablito-glork thing:

I honestly think pablito is town. Horribly bad town, but town nevertheless
pab wrote:Also in looking at cardb0ardb0x's statements. I'd like to point out that Dead Rikimaru first introduced the concept of the Pablito-Glork distancing and cardb0ardb0x was the one that took it much further. Dead Rikimaru didn't even bother vote in that post. That would be an amazing scum move if it Dead Rikimaru just wanted to plant a little seed to get further. But right now I think that the Pablito-Glork distancing was something that any lot of people could have introduced. A lot of people were probably thinking it before Dead Rikimaru got to say it, so I won't vote Dead Rikimaru, yet.
and
pab wrote:However, box isn't used to some players' playing styles and FTF mafia does require more urgency and a need to comment immediately rather than later. So I still see that cbox's post 58 seems consistent with his thoughts and does not suggest scummy behavior. The only vote on box that I find scummy so far (aside from MBL...although this is waning) is CDB's. The others seemed to justify their votes enough but CDB went so far to challenge cbox to test his theory. cbox may have had different intentions when he originally voted me. After getting flak for everything, he's forgotten what his original intent was and added the Glork vote.
stand out to me. It's easy to just look at this current uppity "defend who i like most" playstyle and name him scum, but reading the content that he's posted, they have some form of logic and dare i say "contributive" quality to them, which I beleive to be a pro-town tell.

However, if either Glork or pablito turn up as scum, then the other should be looked at closely.

Luckily we're on a Day 1 with almost no information, so I'm willing to assume that we're still easing into the groove of things and bandwagoning with each other in an effort to gain information.
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Post Post #232 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:37 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Mert wrote:
Yosarian2 wrote:And actually, that "citizan" wording makes me wonder. Not that it really matters yet, but could a hero become a king this game, or not?
Heh, you went to the effort of copying and pasting the Kingmaker description from the front page but didn't read the Hero role while you were at it? :lol:

The Hero can become King unless someone tries to execute them and their role is revealed, after which point they can no longer reign.
Heh...:oops:

I guess I fail at reading.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #233 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:38 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Thok wrote:Um, yeah.
vote pablito
, way too certain that Glork is town, and way too much sucking up to Glork.
Actually, that is a good point. It seems fairly likely that Glork will end up as King eventually, if he dosn't get himself killed first, and it does look like pablito might be trying to make friends with him now so he'll have a better shot at manipulating him later.
fos:pablito
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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Post Post #234 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:30 pm

Post by petroleumjelly »

Okay, just read what has gone down since my last post. I'll try to comment on the largest issues in the town, although I should answer this question first:
SpectrumVoid wrote:One question though: did you know this was mountainous when you signed up?
Yes, I was very much aware this game was practically Mountainous when I signed up. Truth be told, I have only played in one mountainous forum game (the one I linked to earlier, as it happens). I am simply counting on the difference of possibilities in this game to allow it to deviate from the norm.

Simply the addition of the Kingmaker is a great help, since it is a role which scum will always fail in lynching (barring special circumstances). Kings which control lynches are extremely powerful positions, who scum will be forced to dance around (in a
true
Mountainous game, every role is just as equal as the next, whereas in this game, the King is very much where each given days' power lies). A possible Hero role will pretty much force both town and scum to be careful in
who
they choose to execute, lest they die instead. In short, although there are no town investigative or protective roles in the game, there is enough power in the town for me not to strictly consider this game as mountainous.

*****

I've read over the Yos2/MoS debate about three times, and for the time being, I am thinking they are both town. I still disagree with MoS on whether or not voting serves a purpose that is worthwhile in this game from his position, but he has not really attempted to blow the argument out of proportion
or
sweep it under a carpet, and I can at least see where he is coming from. And since I obviously agree with Yos2's stance, I find nothing wrong with his pursual, since I can see myself doing the exact same thing.

*****
Twomz wrote:WRONG!!! Always assume they [everybody] are mafia unless you have reason to assume otherwise.
Eh, so long as this subject is being brought up, I play under a different mindset (and I think it's the most rational). I pretty much begin with everybody being "neutral", and they move up and down a laddered rung as I catch things which make me think people are more likely to be town or more likely to be scum. If you came into the game assuming everybody was scum, you would have to vote everybody (to be consistent, anyways). If you came into the game assuming everybody was town, you could not vote anybody consistently. Just assume everybody is a grey blob, who might be town, and who might be scum, and you're set. Depending on what happens when you poke at them (deflation, popping, inflation, a *squoosh* sound, etc.) you should better be able to place them on the ladder.

*****

Cb0x, have you read the Kingmaker discussion thread? And if so, precisely
when
did you read it? I am interested to know if your flash of inspiration came from thinking about the mechanics of the game, or if it was actually just taken from that particular thread.

*****

Okay, I
still
think Pablito is more likely to be town than not. His play is seriously weird (I honestly cannot recall a single game where he has acted like this, though I have only seen him in about three or four games), but if he was actually trying to get into Glork's good graces for the future, I am positive such a tactic has been quashed rather effectively by now. Also, I understand Pablito's response to MBL concerning the cb0x issue, although my advice to Pablito is to read more games which have MBL in them. MBL (in my experience) can make posts look like dripping gobs of ooze when he feels like it. I have yet to see how those sorts of posts correlate to his alignment.

I'm still liking my votes on Bird1111 and Phoebus.
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Post Post #235 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:02 pm

Post by cardb0ardb0x »

petroleumjelly wrote:Cb0x, have you read the Kingmaker discussion thread? And if so, precisely
when
did you read it? I am interested to know if your flash of inspiration came from thinking about the mechanics of the game, or if it was actually just taken from that particular thread.
Well, I partially answered this question before, in post #169.
cardb0ardb0x wrote:
petroleumjelly wrote:Cb0x, have you read the original Kingmaker? I am interested to know.
I read the engame report... I don't have the patience to read anything that huge.
I actually read the kingmaker endgame report before the sign-ups for kingmaker 2 were open in the first place, as far as I could tell. There were so many "kingmaker theory" threads around, I just had to. Again, I only read the engame report, so my flash of inspiration seemed innovative to me at the time. What post did the idea appear in in kingmaker 1? Now I kind of want to read it.
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Post Post #236 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:03 pm

Post by spectrumvoid »

My take on pab: his play is really weird. I've been in a couple of games with him too, and he didn't play like that.

PJ: can you maybe post a LOE for us? I know you mentioned Bird and Phoebus, but its better to get a list of people we should discuss than go around attacking everyone. (This is one of my first large games where I joined from the start because I replaced in most where fewer people were alive, so correct me if I'm wrong.)
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Post Post #237 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Post by Glork »

An LoE already? We're only on page ten, kids...
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Post Post #238 (ISO) » Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:30 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

:goodposting:
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Post Post #239 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:01 am

Post by Mert »

petroleumjelly [148] wrote:Okay, I reread cb0x's posts and the reactions to his posts about five times, and I dunno. He's striking me as townie, even though he was scummy with his logic for his votes and analyses on players. As has been mentioned, this is almost
eerily
reminescent of RandomActs in the original game (although cb0x at least has not threatened the town with being a power role).
petroleumjelly [200] wrote:D.) An overwhelming self-imposed need to execute scum today, since failing in doing so will probably doom me to a similar fate of TSS in Kingmaker I
Generally I have had no problem with PJ being King today, though the above strikes me as slightly odd. I agree that there's some parity between cb0x and RA, but I'm not sure that that should encourage PJ to think of him as necessarily town in itself.

I do understand why those parallels have been drawn, but it's the second quote that makes me worry about it - I don't want PJ to be wary of attacking Cb0x too heavily because it might doom him to a similar fate as TSS. From memory, I think it was the fact that TSS started Day Two by saying "yeah, I knew he was town" that led to the scrutiny, rather than just the fact that he had executed RA. The town had spent a long time discussing whether the King should be instructed by the town rather than have a degree of autonomy and his "I knew he was town but you all seemed to think he was scum" defense never really sat well after all the debate. That was what brought about his demise, not having killed RA per se.

The fact is that RA did look very scummy in Day One and I don't think his execution would have been particularly questioned by anyone if not for TSS's actions the following day. Saying that Cb0x is town because he reminds you of someone who behaved pretty suspiciously in Kingmaker I doesn't sit very well with me as it gets us into cross-referencing WIFOM teritory.

What I am not saying is that Cb0x is definitely scum but what I am saying is that the fact that he looks a bit like RA doesn't mean that he's not. I am also a little concerned that our King might be deliberately playing down his suspicions for fear of being lynched like TSS was.
Phoebus [152] wrote:I have not read the first kingmaker.
I do not have cases against these people.
I do not know whether I will be building cases.
I play by gut.
Vote: Phoebus
- he definitely goes into my "not being very helpful" pile. MoS has become more vocal and now that he is posting his suspicions more conspicuously I am less adverse to his lack of voting. I still don't agree, but I think it's easier to work with than the other way around (ie. Phoebus).
Unvote: Mastermind of Sin
.

Keeping my vote on Bird for the time being.
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Post Post #240 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:39 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

<3 Phoebus
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Post Post #241 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:40 am

Post by Phoebus »

hehe.

it's amusing how even lack of doing anything can be filed under "being scummy" indicating doing something. paradox much?

care to call your vote omgus, mert?

i have nothing to add at this time.
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Post Post #242 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:43 am

Post by Ameliaslay »

Phoebus wrote:it's amusing how even lack of doing anything can be filed under "being scummy"
Have you not done something? If adding votes to the largest wagons while claiming to be doing nothing more than skimming is nothing... sure I can't see any "being scummy"
vote: Phoebus
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Post Post #243 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:45 am

Post by Mert »

Phoebus wrote:it's amusing how even lack of doing anything can be filed under "being scummy" indicating doing something. paradox much?

care to call your vote omgus, mert?

i have nothing to add at this time.
Well, it isn't really. You could well be lurking because you're trying to slip under the radar and saying that you won't be posting any thoughts seems unhelpful at best. My vote stays.

Call it OMGUS if it makes you happy, I maintain that it's because you're not really helping the town at the moment.
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Post Post #244 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:55 am

Post by Glork »

There's a difference between "lack of doing anything" and "calling everyone with momentum on them scum on the basis of 'gut' while stating that you may not make cases for your votes."

What kind of response would you expect, Phoebus? There's no denying that your posts have been demonstrably scummy. The votes are only expected; and calling Mert's vote OMGUS, when he cited a distincnt lack of contribution, is a perfectly legitimate reason for a vote. For what it's worth, I'll
Vote: Phoebus
, too.
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Post Post #245 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:27 am

Post by pablito »

I'm starting to think less of bird1111 being scum because his reasons for voting and unvoting seem justified now that I've re-read his posts. But he's still not contributing. Therefore
unvote: bird1111
but
FOS: bird1111
.

I think bird1111 really needs to re-justify and explain why he calls his votes on Glork and me "joke votes". He hasn't really done much since then.
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Post Post #246 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:33 am

Post by bird1111 »

My votes on you and Glork was just voting for non-serious reasons; as it was at the beggining of day 1, thus why I called them joke votes
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Post Post #247 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:11 am

Post by pablito »

Whoa, that was a bit of a quick lurker jab.

Nonetheless, that's how I've interpreted them on my re-read.

But please, bird1111, please stay and talk about something other than your previous votes.
Sup, later.
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Post Post #248 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:51 am

Post by MrBuddyLee »

Pablito is definitely scum. Who else sees the slightest bit of difference between an FOS and a vote in THIS game? Only jumpy scum.

For the record, I'm thrilled with MoS's policy of not voting. No problem with it whatsoever.
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Post Post #249 (ISO) » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:21 am

Post by pablito »

MBL, for consistency's sake, go ahead and use my below list for your future votes.
Yosarian2 in 233 wrote:Actually, that is a good point. It seems fairly likely that Glork will end up as King eventually, if he dosn't get himself killed first, and it does look like pablito might be trying to make friends with him now so he'll have a better shot at manipulating him later.
fos:pablito
cardb0ardb0x in 195 wrote:well, what you're saying about phoebus does make sense and his votes do seem telling. however, it's possible phoebus has an explanation, or just voted for whoever looked the most obviously suspicious in their posts, so I'll
FoS: phoebus
until he can come up with a response.
petroleumjelly in 194 wrote:I never really went into strategies I pursued as scum (excepting for dealing with the confirmed innocents problem, and the scum's perspective on Hero claims). In fact,
FoS: Glork
, for that and:
ChannelDelibird in 186 wrote:
FoS: Petroleumjelly
No need to keep letting us know. It sounds like you’re anxious.
Ameliaslay in 181 wrote:However, I recognize the attitude behind this post, so that slightly diffuses my sentiment on the other posts, so I'll just
FOS:cbox
spectrumvoid in 141 wrote:Box. I'm not buying the newbieness. Playing on emotion is a scum-tell. Claiming when not under pressure is a scum-tell. Giving up is a scum-tell. vote: cardb0ardb0x.

MMOS: no one is asking for you to conform to anybody. All we're asking is for you to vote. If you don't use your vote, we won't know what we're thinking. If you don't care, why the heck are you playing mafia? And why do we have to take notes on what you say? Pro-town players should make an effort to help the town obviously.

FOS: Ameliaslay and Vaughn
for trying to overplay what MBL said about PJ.
Thok in 126 wrote:It's not as if anybody will be king permanently. If you think there's evidence that a king is scum, you should point it out for town to consider on future days.

(It's also conceivable that putting pressure on a scum king might force him into making a suboptimal execution.)

I think this warrants an
FOS Shaodwlurker
.
pablito in 89 wrote:Also in looking at cardb0ardb0x's statements. I'd like to point out that Dead Rikimaru first introduced the concept of the Pablito-Glork distancing and cardb0ardb0x was the one that took it much further. Dead Rikimaru didn't even bother vote in that post. That would be an amazing scum move if it Dead Rikimaru just wanted to plant a little seed to get further. But right now I think that the Pablito-Glork distancing was something that any lot of people could have introduced. A lot of people were probably thinking it before Dead Rikimaru got to say it, so I won't vote Dead Rikimaru, yet.

*Oh sheeesh, everyone's already commented on cbox before I got to post, so an
FOS
on those that just voted him.
cardb0ardb0x in 84 wrote:The reason I'm not voting for Glork at this point is that the only situations suggested to me by their actions are that either both of them are townies, pablito is scum and glork is townie, or both are scum. Is it all right if I just kind of
FOS Glork
at this point? Actually, I'll Vote: Glork for presure, and then take it off

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