Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy (Game Over)

[zabriel]

MoI, that is true, we can use one of our talky PRs like Nero to target Aco, but we're gambling with a life to test that, and his death wouldn't even prove Aco's role since we'd have to have the mafia kill and the reactive kill. If Aco is fake-claiming mafia shoots our tester, he dies, and the lack of a mafia kill is explained away by a protection or mafia just deciding not to kill, and if Aco is town mafia leaves our tester alone and points out the lack of a second kill and we charge forward. Basically to test outside a lynch one of our guys has to target Aco at night without telling us and hope that mafia shoots somebody that isn't him so he can report or be dead with the mafia kill. And we're down another two townies if Aco is telling the truth. Possibly more if a couple people get the idea to sacrifice themselves at night. Assuming anybody does want to risk it.

[Yates]

And who gives a shit about Acosmist once saying that he isnt _technically_ an exact PGO. Do you honestly think that was a slip?

I'm not calling anything a "slip." What I am pointing out is an inconsistency in Acosmist's play/strategy. Sure, strategies can evolve over the course of a game. My concern is that Acosmist is supposed to be playing like "Captain Uber Town" [TM] but instead is pulling off gambits like the one I pointed out. It makes no sense and contributes to my unsettled opinion on his slot. I'm not trying to "catch him on a technicality" so much as point out that his play has been inconsistent, terrible, and AT BEST null Town [leaning scum]. Do an ISO on Acosmist with the inconsistency I pointed out in mind. It's much more than him flaking on his claim in an attempt to... what? I don't even know. Try to "discredit" [Mastin - all rights reserved] a legitimate point against him because it happened to serve his purpose at the time?

Also, for the record, you probably *SHOULD* go back and reread the context if you think he was simply saying he wasn't exactly technically a PGO. Because that's not what he did. He back peddled on his claim to pretend he had the ability to kill a Day Vig/Day SK - which is not something a PGO can do. Now that it serves his purposes to call himself a PGO again, all of a sudden he *IS* a PGO? Am I the only one that thinks this is more than "a technicality?"

[Yates]

Scum motivation for scum-Mastin to carry on in an attempt to lynch town-MoI when he can focus all his juice on an easier target and just NK MoI. Doctor is obvious non-existent or complete moron.

Why would he have killed MoI last night? Think about it. If scum-Mastin had a chance to kill Cop-Benmage there is no way he is picking MoI over Benmage. Save this argument for another day.

[Yates]

I needed a good night's sleep to figure out how to deal with this:

Spoiler:

I can't tell whether it is Stupid Town or Stupid Scum. It's stupid regardless because

Nero Cain is a proven Neighborizor

. Aka someone who targets people at Night and establishes a QT with them. So as long as Nero has a living body (or two) to speak with at Night

he can definately test Acosmist by targetting him and explicitly telling his QT members he is doing so

.

If he lives (and thus Neighborizores Acosmist) Acosmist is clearly lying.
If he dies then whoever is alive afterwards can convey this to the thread.

The only flaw to the plan, of course, is if he Neighborizes scum who choose not to expose the information. But based on Benmage's kill flavor I'm guessing each death source has its own unique flavor that isn't duplicated.

Not to mention we have an unclaimed Messager who could also test out this theory

(telling the person they message Night 3 that they intend to test Acosmist Night 4). And any other roles that might be able to test this.

So - are you stupid Town or stupid Scum who are not thinking things through?

So let me get this straight - you were

against

letting Tammy [who you were convinced was an anti-Town role] testing Acosmist's claim BUT you have no problems allowing two confirmed TOWN roles testing the claim?? Would you please explain to me how

ZAB

is the one being dumb in his game plan?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Eloscuta – Still waiting for your answers to those questions. Why are you dodging?

(yes, this is ironically using your own tactic against you …)

--

So let me get this straight - you were against letting Tammy [who you were convinced was an anti-Town role] testing Acosmist's claim BUT you have no problems allowing two confirmed TOWN roles testing the claim?? Would you please explain to me how ZAB is the one being dumb in his game plan?

I’m putting this up front since it needs direct attention.

1. Please link to where I said I objected to Tammy testing Acosmist. I’ll be waiting since I never did. Now perhaps you are meaning that I was against Tammy living another day to do so. That I was. Tammy had already been outed as a Serial Killer. She had proven she wasn’t going to test Acosmist’s claim when she shot ThAd. So this point of your argument is moot and rather stupid. Letting Tammy live another day to ‘force’ her to test Acosmist was just going to result in her shooting someone other than him and then being lynched for not following orders.
2. So how exactly are Nero and the Messenger confirmed Town roles again? I don’t recall seeing anything from Benmage saying he scanned Nero. You do understand that neither of those roles is close to being alignment confirming at all, right?
3. I at this stage would have no problem with EITHER of those roles testing Acosmist. Neither one is powerful at all in regards to finding scum on their own. Thus if you are someone who is in the “I think Acosmist is fake-claiming scum” I would think you would have little problem with having someone who inherently can’t find scum with their role directly (and who can be scum, natch) confirming Acosmist is a PGO.

--

MoI's showing a survivalistic attitude--again, very uncharacteristic of town.

Look, more completely fabricated bullshit …

--

Mykonian coming across as town, but haven't read his predessor recently.

Did you read Post 2238 Peregrine? How exactly does that string of reasoning come across as Town? Please explain in detail how that looks Town to you.

--

MoI, that is true, we can use one of our talky PRs like Nero to target Aco, but we're gambling with a life to test that, and his death wouldn't even prove Aco's role since we'd have to have the mafia kill and the reactive kill. If Aco is fake-claiming mafia shoots our tester, he dies, and the lack of a mafia kill is explained away by a protection or mafia just deciding not to kill, and if Aco is town mafia leaves our tester alone and points out the lack of a second kill and we charge forward. Basically to test outside a lynch one of our guys has to target Aco at night without telling us and hope that mafia shoots somebody that isn't him so he can report or be dead with the mafia kill. And we're down another two townies if Aco is telling the truth. Possibly more if a couple people get the idea to sacrifice themselves at night. Assuming anybody does want to risk it.

Um given that both kills we have seen are flavored (Exploded for SK Tammy, eaten for whoever killed Benmage) why do you think that Acos’s claimed PGO response would not be flavored and thus able to be differentiated from other kills. Your “Well the Mafia could just shoot the tester” theory fails on that end and also fails given the Nero / the Messenger would not have to publicly announce his test (has a QT / can messeger a person with that intent the Day before).

Furthermore – why are you assuming (like Yates I note) that both the Neighborizor and Messenger are Town. Neither role is alignment indicative?

Lastly you never answered these …

So you thought it was a good point about Nero being possible scum but since no-one else ran with it you just dropped it?

So there is no strong Town motivation to want scum dead?

Also – what is your Mafia experience Zab?

[Elscouta]

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

Enough with the bullshit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: MagnaOfIllusion

Enough with the bullshit.

What? Me calling you out on your failing to answer questions is bullshit?

Eloscuta has now quite nicely established that he wants no part in actually attempting to assess whether the cases on Mykonian have merit. Thanks for making that clear for everyone!

[Elscouta]

Wasn't it already clear?

[Yates]

Alright, thanks for addressing this quickly because this has been bothering me.

1. Please link to where I said I objected to Tammy testing Acosmist. I’ll be waiting since I never did.

What's interesting is that you don't really address the Acosmist lynch directly AT ALL in your ISO. I suppose you could be correct and that I am making an assumption that you were against the Tammy-Acosmist test due to your vote and, frankly, by avoiding the subject entirely. I do disagree on the rest of that defense, and would ask you how you know Tammy wouldn't have tested Acosmist's claim [despite saying she would] but it isn't worth arguing about since Tammy is dead and the point

is

moot.

2. So how exactly are Nero and the Messenger confirmed Town roles again? I don’t recall seeing anything from Benmage saying he scanned Nero. You do understand that neither of those roles is close to being alignment confirming at all, right?

Are you taking the stance NEITHER of these roles are Town? I guess your response will inform my opinion on your point 3:

3. I at this stage would have no problem with EITHER of those roles testing Acosmist. Neither one is powerful at all in regards to finding scum on their own. Thus if you are someone who is in the “I think Acosmist is fake-claiming scum” I would think you would have little problem with having someone who inherently can’t find scum with their role directly (and who can be scum, natch) confirming Acosmist is a PGO.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Acosmist's play thus far?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wasn't it already clear?

It was clear you have dodged actually commenting on his alignment directly that I can see. Last thing you mentioned mykonian in your posts was this -

I have no clue about the mykonian case and i don't have the time nor the will to read enough to get a good opinion on it.

What's clear is that you are saying here you haven't read anything on it and aren't willing to spend the time to make an assessment. Hardly a rock solid commitment to a read.

So, again - why aren't you willing to read the mykonian cases or actually commit to a read with reasons Elo?

[Acosmist]

we're gambling with a life to test that

MoI why aren't you voting zabriel?

[Elscouta]

Because reading any of your posts is so annoying that the simple thought of digging through pages of them give me shudders.

I already have enough people to focus on. No, i won't suddenly start analizing Yates, jason, mykonian, AP or whoever just because one of my scumreads ask me to do so (exception can be made if a good and clear point is being made, but that's something that you seem unable to do). If the mykonian wagon starts to really take steam i will look at it, but i would rather see votes pile on you for now (or mastin, or Asco)

In case it's not clear, I consider you either scum or bad town that enjoys drowning the thread with walls. Don't expect me to follow anything you say.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Because reading any of your posts is so annoying that the simple thought of digging through pages of them give me shudders.

I already have enough people to focus on.

No, i won't suddenly start analizing Yates, jason, mykonian, AP or whoever just because one of my scumreads ask me to do so (exception can be made if a good and clear point is being made, but that's something that you seem unable to do)

. If the mykonian wagon starts to really take steam i will look at it, but i would rather see votes pile on you for now (or mastin, or Asco)

In case it's not clear, I consider you either scum or bad town that enjoys drowning the thread with walls. Don't expect me to follow anything you say.

I'll translate this for you -

1. Reading is hard - aka 'I don't want to justify my stance on Mykonian so I'm going to pretend that reading post

IN A GAME PREDICATED ON THE WRITTEN WORD

is too difficult to me.
2. The bolded comes from a scum standpoint since I asked him about mykonian before he 'officially' moved me from Null to Scum. So the "my scum read is asking me to do it" didn't apply back when he first dodged. But now he's retroactively trying to justify that as the reason.

Nope.jpg. Not Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI why aren't you voting zabriel?

Because of the last vote-count mykonian had more votes than Zab and I'm more sure of mykonian as scum than anyone else. Do you think mykonian is scum?

[Acosmist]

Can Elscouta replace out since he's said he's not going to play the game? That'd be fantastic.

Also, seriously, zab is scum.

I don't know whether mykonian is scum.

[Elscouta]

@MoI

1- you definitely seem stronger at writing than reading at least.
2- And? Doesn't it sound logical that while i'm analyzing someone i don't let myself sidetracked? Especially as the analysis lasted like 4 hours?

Because of the last vote-count mykonian had more votes than Zab and I'm more sure of mykonian as scum than anyone else. Do you think mykonian is scum?

rewritten for you: i don't want to vote for people that are attacking me and that look hard to lynch. I'd rather take the easy target for the lynch and simply call my attackers scum without doing anything against them.

@Ascomist: lol. I have played the game more in 10 pages than you in 100.

[Elscouta]

Also i like how Ascomist knows that i'm sincere in my intentions and not scum faking to focus. I wonder why...

o wait i know

[WrathChild]

I'm sorry guys, I'm in middle of a work transition. I don't have a lot of time and will be V/LA for thanksgiving break. I'll try to catch up if I get caught up in real life.

[mykonian]

I needed a good night's sleep to figure out how to deal with this:

Spoiler:

I can't tell whether it is Stupid Town or Stupid Scum. It's stupid regardless because

Nero Cain is a proven Neighborizor

. Aka someone who targets people at Night and establishes a QT with them. So as long as Nero has a living body (or two) to speak with at Night

he can definately test Acosmist by targetting him and explicitly telling his QT members he is doing so

.

If he lives (and thus Neighborizores Acosmist) Acosmist is clearly lying.
If he dies then whoever is alive afterwards can convey this to the thread.

The only flaw to the plan, of course, is if he Neighborizes scum who choose not to expose the information. But based on Benmage's kill flavor I'm guessing each death source has its own unique flavor that isn't duplicated.

Not to mention we have an unclaimed Messager who could also test out this theory

(telling the person they message Night 3 that they intend to test Acosmist Night 4). And any other roles that might be able to test this.

So - are you stupid Town or stupid Scum who are not thinking things through?

So let me get this straight - you were

against

letting Tammy [who you were convinced was an anti-Town role] testing Acosmist's claim BUT you have no problems allowing two confirmed TOWN roles testing the claim?? Would you please explain to me how

ZAB

is the one being dumb in his game plan?

No, you don't need sleep for things like this. I see this so often, in every kind of game. The more excuses you have to make for someone, the more likely he's scum. Simple as that.

This game also gets a lot simpler if you vote with every case.

Can Elscouta replace out since he's said he's not going to play the game? That'd be fantastic.

Also, seriously, zab is scum.

I don't know whether mykonian is scum.

Yes you do. I'm not. The only reason you are even thinking about it is because MoI is having a crusade and I stood on Pidgeys toes. That happens, I have big feet.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes you do. I'm not.

The only reason you are even thinking about it is because MoI is having a crusade and I stood on Pidgeys toes.

That happens, I have big feet.

Ooops … another case of “Mykonian is treating his scum suspects as Town”.

Look carefully at the bolded. He’s saying that Acos (who he calls scum in that post) is only thinking about voting him because I am “crusading” against him (aka he is getting an unexpected avenue of possible attack from an unexpected source). Yet I’m scum (that where his vote currently is). So why is Scum-Acosmist only considering voting mykonian because Scum-MoI is on a crusade? It wouldn't be unexpected if we were scum together. That doesn’t make any sense if Mykonian actually believe that.

Yeah, mykonian is scum and needs more votes.

--

What's interesting is that you don't really address the Acosmist lynch directly AT ALL in your ISO

. I suppose you could be correct and that I am making an assumption that you were against the Tammy-Acosmist test due to your vote and, frankly, by avoiding the subject entirely. I do disagree on the rest of that defense, and would ask you how you know Tammy wouldn't have tested Acosmist's claim [despite saying she would] but it isn't worth arguing about since Tammy is dead and the point is moot.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Acosmist's play thus far?

So Yate, in regards to the bolded and the second quote – are you actually reading the thread? I ask because the bolded indicates you ISOed me and found no mention of Acosmist at all.

Yet ISO and Control-Fing for “Acos” yields my interactions with KK where I say my read on Acos is Town and this post where I basically do the same thing to Acosmist I am doing to you here.

So Yates – did you just lie about saying you ISOed me?

Are you taking the stance NEITHER of these roles are Town? I guess your response will inform my opinion on your point 3:

Nice dodge. You didn’t answer the question but attempted to turn it back on me. So I’ll bold it for you here

Yates – Why did you say both Nero and the Messenger are confirmed Town in Post 2453.

Now since I’m Town and am open to discussion – I never neither role is Town and you know that. I said that neither role is AUTOMATICALLY confirmed Town via role. Messengers and Neighborizors can be both scum and Town and I can find you examples of each. I do find it likely that one of them is scum and one is Town given the fact that an anonymous Messenger (and both Tammy and mastin have said the person is anonymous) and Neighborizor could create a rather potent synergy with a Cop if all are Town (Cop and Messenger are Neighborized – Cop gets results and Messenger relays those results via anonymous message to an outside party which also serves as a scum-hunting tool the first time by seeing the reaction of the play to the message).

So a Town Messenger flip would make me think Nero (dayplay aside) was very likely to be Scum and a Town Nero flip vice versa to our hidden messenger.

[mykonian]

I knew you didn't forget about me. I was a bit worried there.

btw, I wonder about this, if I make a huge sentence moi and put your name in the middle of it, does that mean I get quoted?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Eloscuta gets his own posts because Post 2465 needs specific attention.

It isn’t often that something drops into your lap like mana from Heaven. But 2465 does that in a big way. Let’s look at this ‘translation’ that Eloscuta does in an attempt to say I’m scummy (and quite funny that directly swipes the formatting of this from me) –

rewritten for you: i don't want to vote for people that are attacking me and that look hard to lynch. I'd rather take the easy target for the lynch and simply call my attackers scum without doing anything against them.

This is literally a Christmas gift to Town. It can’t be put any other way. It’s a nice little box stuffed to the gills with scumminess. I’ll address each scummy point individually –

First we have the “He’s afraid to OMGUS” element (afraid to vote for those who attack him). Is that true? Not at all given Mykonian is voting me] and called me scum yesterday. So strike one here for actually being even close to factually accurate.

Second we have the inherent assumption that OMGUSing is scummy (otherwise why would scum be afraid to OMGUS per the first point above). Well then clearly Eloscuta is playing just like he thinks scum do since he only voted me well after I called his play scummy in multiple posts. So we have some Cognitive Dissonance going on there which is a sign of scum alignment.

Third we have the opinion that Mykonian is an ‘easy lynch’. How is someone who joined Mafiascum in 2008 and clearly isn’t a VI an easy lynch? That fails to make any logical sense. So this is just trying to smear my scum-hunting on mykonian in any way he can.

Third part two – who are the players I’m ‘afraid’ to vote who are suspecting me? Mastin – that can’t be true since mastin himself readily admits he knows he can’t win a 1 on 1 wall war with me. No-one else comes to mind. So this is just rhetoric meant to show I’m scummy that fails to stand up to scrutiny.

Fourth part - the inherent premise that I should be voting my attackers as opposed to pushing my top scum read doesn’t come from a Town perspective. Town are going to be suspected by both scum and Town. That’s how mislynches happen and they happen every game. Town’s job is to not get distracted in simply saying “Player X says I’m scum … they must be scum” and should continue to pursue their suspects while scum-hunting. Which is what I am doing – voting mykonian while pursuing other lines of inquiry to help get even more refined Town and scum reads. Yet that Town-motivated behavior is an indication I am scum in the above.

So all in all that little line is chock full of clearly incorrect assertions and attacks based on premises that aren’t scum-tells.

As for the rest of the post –

1- you definitely seem stronger at writing than reading at least.

Dodge, dodge and dodge and use insults to do it as well. Do you think calling me stupid is going to get you off the hook for your clear fabricated response (as I pointed out in Post 2462?

2- And? Doesn't it sound logical that while i'm analyzing someone i don't let myself sidetracked? Especially as the analysis lasted like 4 hours?

Where is this mystery analysis you claim lasted 4 hours? No indication in thread any such analysis that I can see. Please link to the post that shows this long analysis.

[Yates]

So Yate, in regards to the bolded and the second quote – are you actually reading the thread?

No you are misinterpreting. I didn't say you were ignoring Acosmist, I said you ignored the discussion about the Acosmist lynch. Specifically, you never said anything about this post or this post or this post or really anything concerning the Acosmist train that went into motion on page 71.

So a Town Messenger flip would make me think Nero (dayplay aside) was very likely to be Scum and a Town Nero flip vice versa to our hidden messenger.

Exactly. While I don't 100% agree with you, I obviously know that they don't both HAVE TO BE Town [in the same way one being Town/Scum doesn't mean the other is the opposite]. Still, I am inclined to believe that AT LEAST one of them is Town. And in any scenario presented, the chance of Town being killed by testing a PGO claim would be infinitly higher than the ZERO percent chance Town would die if TAMMY had tested it since you were 100% convinced she was scum/SK. THAT was my point. Feel free to assign whatever odds you want to losing Town to testing the PGO claim, it's going to be a number higher than 0% - and that's what Tammy was offering - a 0% chance at losing Town by testing the PGO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

An in doing that response I have another thing I’d like everyone to take a look at –

In Post 2419 Eloscuta response to my question about mastin’s 1v1 with the following …

I don't speak about the fact that a 1v1 is good or bad.

Of course it's dumb

. But claiming you'll go in a 1v1 then retracting your statement is the whole different thing.

I’ve bolded the important part … he says clearly it is dumb.

Yet if he thought that why did he say the following at Post 2344?

I still would be up for a snifit or Ascomist lynch, but i'm interesting in seeing the MoI vs mastin fight.

He made that post at the start of the Day. Why, if mastin’s 1v1 is stupid, does he want to see more of the fight? Keep in mind at Post 2404 he gives reads of “Mastin scum overdoing his Town meta, MoI null”? So what advantage does Eloscuta have as Town to want to see the fight continue? Clearing one of us? That clearly hasn’t happened since we are both now scum reads of his.

Also - keep in mind he continues to refuse to give a read on mykonian.

[Yates]

Also - I wrote this note earlier but haven't had a chance to post it and don't want to forget:

Jesus. I'm Johnny Sasaki.

Tammy was Fatman

I think it is safe to assume scum have fake claims if the 3rd party had a fake claim.