NY 160: Terrible Melodrama Mafia (Game Over)

[Plan B]

If you think I'm an SK, then you must be assuming I shot Yoshi. Why would I do that?

Because you thought he was scum and, therefore, a good kill? I dunno, and don't care overly much. Also, Serial Killer is just one option, a different scum faction is another. I made it clear I thought you could be either. Why are you so focused on this Serial Killer thing and want the other scum faction possibility to go away?

Also, I disagree that asking GB for how they would have reacted differently is useless. (Obviously, or I wouldn't have asked it.) Just because I go about looking for motivation in a different way than you do doesn't make it less valid.

Gentlemen Bastard's Post 438
The point is that Post 438 is full of content and reads. You picked some parenthetical advice to a flipped player to dig into and tried to start a theory discussion. I consider that thread derailing and indicative of you continuing to avoid the meat of the game.

But, fine. If you were using that to look at Gentlemen Bastards' motivation, what did his response tell you?

[Plan B]

F-16_Fighting_Falcon's catch up reads to me to be coming from Town mindset. I disagree with the JacobSavage conclusion, but don't pervieve it as a scum motivated attack. Especially given that multiple players have espoused Town leanings on JacobSavage (including Demon Core who is known Town).

New and different viewpoints expressed is more likely to come from Town as opposed to finding an easy path to blend in.

[4nxi3ty]

We're probably going to work on some VCA in the next day or two, but in the meantime: anyone that has suspicion of us, could you point out specific "scummy" posts and provide reasoning? I've noticed a lot of fingers pointed in our direction lately, but few people have said why they suspect us. I think NC has given reasoning and I know DC gave a short description in his scumreads post. A good portion of it seems to be PoE as well, or that's what I'm getting out of all the "scum is in these X people" posts.

Discussion never hurts, after all.

Your initial jump on the senjai wagon. Your 'told you dy was mafia' eventhough you only had dy as a placeholder vote and was more focused on nero cain. Your jabs at plan b for being on more than one wagon and me for being on both pr wagons.

[DeasVail]

Vote Count 2.03

Toon Fighter (4)- 4nxi3ty, Empking, RedCoyote, Gentlemen Bastards
JacobSavage (3)- F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Toon Fighter, Untrod Tripod
Nero Cain (2)- Plan B, N
F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)- JacobSavage

Not voting: Nero Cain, adorkable

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

V/LA

Nero Cain

Deadline

29th November, 6pm AEDT

[Nero Cain]

Also someone said something about how they think its unlikely for both me and piggy to be town prs. Whoever said that is very likely scum.

I think several people said that, including you.

I’m really thinkin’ that Plan B is scum with Piggy. He’s really fence sitting on her. Joins the Jacob wagon then calls me scummy for not finding Jacob scummy then when the Jacob wagon starts to loose steam he jumps off for finding Jacob not scummy. (HELLO CONJETIVE DISSONANCE!!!) And he didn’t answer my last question which really annoys me.

Vote:piggy

If it’s a scum slot then there’s no reason to trust here results so if she flips scum then I bet she has some buddies in the group saying “let her live.”

VOTE: Nero Cain

?????????????????????????????

*slams head against desk*

My finding Piggy is

NOT

the same as "lulz 2 town PRs outted on day 1? unlikely"

Plan B keeps pushing that he thinks I'm a serial killer when there's been nothing to hint towards an SK even existing is also a bit suspect.

The game is too small for a second team and the town wincon lets us know that there's more than just a mafia faction but Plan B

shouldn't

be sk hunting if he's town.

More tomorrow but I’d still like to lynch Plan B, adork, 4nx.

Vote: PLANB

No town SK hunts like he’s doing.

[RedCoyote]

There's likely a scum in the group of N, adorkable, UT, and Toon.

If we're going to assume scum took the very basic tactic of killing off people that suspect them, you should include yourself in that group.

Which, as UT pointed out, is about 42% of the game.

Why would I include myself in my scum suspects...?

Additionally, I agree with GB. I do not see a connection between JS and DY here. Those voting JS should explain how I'm wrong for thinking that or reconsider their vote.

[N]

If you think I'm an SK, then you must be assuming I shot Yoshi. Why would I do that?

Because you thought he was scum and, therefore, a good kill? I dunno, and don't care overly much. Also, Serial Killer is just one option, a different scum faction is another. I made it clear I thought you could be either. Why are you so focused on this Serial Killer thing and want the other scum faction possibility to go away?

Oh, so you're allowed to bring it up and call me an SK, but when I reply it's wasting time?

Also, I disagree that asking GB for how they would have reacted differently is useless. (Obviously, or I wouldn't have asked it.) Just because I go about looking for motivation in a different way than you do doesn't make it less valid.

Gentlemen Bastard's Post 438
The point is that Post 438 is full of content and reads. You picked some parenthetical advice to a flipped player to dig into and tried to start a theory discussion. I consider that thread derailing and indicative of you continuing to avoid the meat of the game.

But, fine. If you were using that to look at Gentlemen Bastards' motivation, what did his response tell you?

(Firstly, I just want to admit that post was mostly a prod-dodge, so that's why it was brief. I'm not saying I shouldn't have made it, but that's why it's all there is to that post. I admit to that much being useless.)

I disagreed with GB's assertion that not fully claiming your role is anti-town, for reasons I said. If they had continued to push that point of view, I would have been more suspicious of them because I feel that that would be giving scum more information than they need.

But I feel like you're just going to continue to call whatever I do a waste of time; you just called me replying to you a waste of time. Why would you post something (an unfounded accusation, no less) in thread if you didn't want people to discuss it?

[Plan B]

I agree that DoomYoshi and N don't make a likely partnership, but this doesn't undermine N as a possible SK, or other scum faction.

Why? Would you be more likely to believe her if she'd claimed 2-shot? I personally would be less inclined to believe a day 1 claim that included how many shots. Claiming the full role makes you more likely to take the nightkill (although I see this might not be so useful d1). Scum fakeclaiming x-shot is more likely, because then they can be lazier

Who cares, at this point, what would've happened had PiggyGal15 full claimed? This is distracting, and doesn't have any impact on Gentlemen Bastards' alignment. Continued pattern of not really scumhunting. However, should Toon Fighter flip scum, N sniping at Gentlemen Bastards needs to be recalled.

First preference is Nero Cain, but I'll gladly join Toon Fighter or N wagons.

If you think I'm an SK, then you must be assuming I shot Yoshi. Why would I do that?

Plan B keeps pushing that he thinks I'm a serial killer when there's been nothing to hint towards an SK even existing is also a bit suspect.

Because you thought he was scum and, therefore, a good kill? I dunno, and don't care overly much. Also, Serial Killer is just one option, a different scum faction is another. I made it clear I thought you could be either. Why are you so focused on this Serial Killer thing and want the other scum faction possibility to go away?

Oh, so you're allowed to bring it up and call me an SK, but when I reply it's wasting time?

That's our conversation on this topic.

It started with me offering my opinion that you weren't likely partnered with DoomYoshi, but are still scummy. That means either Serial Killer or a second scum team.

You countered with asking why I think you might kill DoomYoshi as Serial Killer, dropping the possibility of a second scum team from the converstaion.

You then say that I'm pushing the idea of you as Serial Killer against any evidence. There were two kills on Night 1. That means one of three things. A Town vig, a second scum team, or Serial Killer. So, there is evidence of this possibility and I'm not advocating it as the only answer.

I answer your hypothetical question and ask why you're describing the conversation in a way that doesn't reflect reality.

How in the hell am I saying anything about you wasting time in your reply to me? I find your answer very worthwhile and it strengthens my belief that you do not have a Town role PM.

I disagreed with GB's assertion that not fully claiming your role is anti-town, for reasons I said. If they had continued to push that point of view, I would have been more suspicious of them because I feel that that would be giving scum more information than they need.

But I feel like you're just going to continue to call whatever I do a waste of time; you just called me replying to you a waste of time. Why would you post something (an unfounded accusation, no less) in thread if you didn't want people to discuss it?

I just got through making this point against Nero Cain. I want to know how you think I'm shutting down conversations that I started. I think you saw that it was a valid point I made against Nero Cain and tried to make me look guilty of it. Silly, and not true.

How, or why, would Gentlemen Bastards (as hypothetical scum) be giving information to scum? Didn't we just come out of Night? Don't you think they might've had such a conversation with their hypothetical partners during the Night?

Why didn't you dig into their reads and ideas about the living players? It appears to me that you are working very hard to avoid confrontations with people. At least up until this back and forth between you and me. Why is that?

@ Nero Cain

This serves as my response to you about me Serial Killer hunting. It's a bogus accusation.

Are you just conceding the rest of my points against you?

Look, if I'm wrong about you, you're not making me see it.

[Untrod Tripod]

Those voting JS should explain how I'm wrong for thinking that or reconsider their vote.

I see DY trying to lynch-chain based on JS flipping scum. How do you not find that scummy?

[Nero Cain]

The fact that Nero Cain considers multi-posting a scumtell is hilarious.

So you are a believer in "scum wouldn't do this" type arguments? While it varies from player to player, scum do attempt to clutter up the thread and pretty extremly active at times.

So, here DoomYoshi is trying to link Plan B to his scumbuddy JacobSavage by saying that conditional upon JacobSavage's flip, he will FOS PlanB. So, this is bussing/distancing combined with making someone else look guilty if the scumbuddy flips scum.

And if JS flips town? You should have it in the back of your mind that Doom trying to pair JS/Plan B might have been an attempt to get scumbuddy B some town cred.

You're oversimplifying it. My point is that when many people tend to call someone scum without anyone pushing a wagon on them, it's usually done by scum to blend in or give them a bus-vote to fall back on.

Ok. So in the three quotes you gave 1/3 were scum. To me, this looks like you knew there was scum calling me scum.

I'm cool with a JS lynch because of DY trying to set up lynches based on JS flipping scum

Why are you concerned with JS (and DY) but not adorkable setting up lynch chains?

DoomYoshi is known scum. PiggyGal15 is known town. I'm accusing DoomYoshi of going with the flow while saying you were a better wagon than N, then preferentially voting N over you when your wagon was called into question.

I explained how the relative ease of the PiggyGal15 wagon and her claim at L-1 + hammer threat was enough to take her off my lynch list. Just how are these similar things?

My point was, and I know that you won’t agree with it, but for others…scumDY fence sat between me and N, you fence sat on piggy. I don’t think there’s that big of difference.

Your “I explained how the relative ease of the PiggyGal15 wagon and her claim at L-1 + hammer threat was enough to take her off my lynch list.” Looks like inside information to me.

Also, this is the second time you've thrown out an accusation and tried to shut down an answer before I could respond.

Would you like some cheese with that?

Nero Cain claimed out of the blue in a way that seemed specifically tailored to the game environment to dismantle the wagon.

That’s rank, dude. Both alignments are going to claim prior to their flip. I knew my schedule, I wasn’t going to be back online till the 13th. This “OMG NERO IS SO SCUMMY FOR CLAIMING BEFORE L-1 “

I dunno, and don't care overly much. Also, Serial Killer is just one option, a

different

scum faction is another.

ITT Plan B claims N isn't in his scum group.

Are you just conceding the rest of my points against you?

What are these "points"?

[Toon Fighter]

@ Nero Cain: You claimed Roleblocker, right? Who did you target N1?

Non-response is akin to scum claim.

[JacobSavage]

@Nero don't claim. I assume you know this but don't. save it for later

[Untrod Tripod]

I'm cool with a JS lynch because of DY trying to set up lynches based on JS flipping scum

Why are you concerned with JS (and DY) but not adorkable setting up lynch chains?

i ONLY C

[Untrod Tripod]

I'm cool with a JS lynch because of DY trying to set up lynches based on JS flipping scum

Why are you concerned with JS (and DY) but not adorkable setting up lynch chains?

I only care about DY doing it because HURR DURR we know he was scum. Can't say the same about adorkable now can we? Are we reading the same game?

FIXEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Nero Cain]

Toon, why do you want to know who I blocked?

I'm cool with a JS lynch because of DY trying to set up lynches based on JS flipping scum

Why are you concerned with JS (and DY) but not adorkable setting up lynch chains?

I only care about DY doing it because HURR DURR we know he was scum. Can't say the same about adorkable now can we? Are we reading the same game?

FIXEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Yes we are. A JS lynch was a deffinite possibilty yesterday. It would be risky of DY to try and throw his buddy under the bus like that. IMO, I think Plan B would be the most likely scum. And thats even assuming its a town/scum paring. Its very plausable that its a town/town grouping. I do not like how your so willing to dismiss dorks scummy behavior.

[Untrod Tripod]

I didn't say I was willing to dismiss it, you said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't understand how you can say "a JS lynch was a definite possibility" and then say it would be risky for DY to try to turn a lynch on his buddy into a town lynch the next day. That's like...exactly what you should do ask scum

[Nero Cain]

I didn't say I was willing to dismiss it, you said that. Don't put words in my mouth.

fair enough.

I don't understand how you can say "a JS lynch was a definite possibility" and then say it would be risky for DY to try to turn a lynch on his buddy into a town lynch the next day. That's like...exactly what you should do ask scum

I'll have to go back and look at the time frame but for awhile the JS lynch looked like it was going to go through. If JS was town and Plan B was a scum buddy then using the JS lynch as away to get B some town cred makes perfect sense to me.

[RedCoyote]

UT, what do you say to DY being the biggest advocate for a JS lynch yesterday? That was all pretend?

[N]

How, or why, would Gentlemen Bastards (as hypothetical scum) be giving information to scum? Didn't we just come out of Night? Don't you think they might've had such a conversation with their hypothetical partners during the Night?

I meant that anyone else run up towards a claim would see GB's post and think "I'd better full claim; that's what the town wants."

[Gentlemen Bastards]

@ Gentlemen Bastards and Empking

I'm comfortable with you guys in my Town reads pile. Could you explain how I might be wrong about Nero Cain?

I think it's entirely possible for Nero to be scum, I just don't find your case on him to be anywhere near as strong as the case on F-16 or Toon, think they're much much more likely to flip mafia plus I'm somewhat reluctant to risk mslynching another town pr again after yesterday. I think if there is a SK in the game they'll know that a roleblocker is a role that can seriously fuck them up as we can either PoE clear people via being roleblocked and thus confirmed not SK or they themselves get roleblocked and become confirmed so really I think if there's a SK they'll be forced to shoot Nero at some point meaning it's not worth focusing on for a while.

F-16_Fighting_Falcon's catch up reads to me to be coming from Town mindset. I disagree with the JacobSavage conclusion, but don't pervieve it as a scum motivated attack. Especially given that multiple players have espoused Town leanings on JacobSavage (including Demon Core who is known Town). New and different viewpoints expressed is more likely to come from Town as opposed to finding an easy path to blend in.

I don't find his reads to be that genuine at all and think his attack on Jacob ignores a lot of the reasoning that makes him very obvtown, it's as if he's avoiding that to just continue to push his case. And he's stated a scum-read on Toon so not seeing him as town here not moving across to the Toon wagon or at least hesitating when Toon joined him on Jacob. I really cannot see his play here as town and if we die at some point you need to promise us that he's strung up before lylo.

[4nxi3ty]

I believe both sides of the argument about JS and DY associaton have some merit, yet JS' play by itself was town.

Nero, why do you have me and adorkable as scumreads?

[Plan B]

@ Gentlemen Bastards

Thanks for the reply, and I'll rethink things regarding F-16_Fighting_Falcon and Nero Cain. I asked because I know I can get tunnel vision and wanted to know what players I'm reading as Town might be seeing that I'm not.

That’s rank, dude. Both alignments are going to claim prior to their flip. I knew my schedule, I wasn’t going to be back online till the 13th. This “OMG NERO IS SO SCUMMY FOR CLAIMING BEFORE L-1 “

I think you didn't complete your thought here, but I think you were going for something along the lines of, "... is stupid and unfair in the same way attacking a declared V/LA is unfair." Am I right?

I'll concede this point, and also note that your response attacking the logic behind my thought process is radically different than an AtE of something like, "I owed it to Town, look at how Townie I am for it."

I'll reply to the rest of your post later. Limited time for me, now. Karma's a bitch sometimes.

[DeasVail]

Prodding Empking.

[Nero Cain]

Nero, why do you have me and adorkable as scumreads?

I think you've been active lurking like a boss. You have to read the game instead of scumskim for why I suspect dork.

[adorkable]

v/la till Saturday due to holiday stuff

apologies for being lazy the days prior to this, though