Mini #367: Endgame'd

[Norinel]

Wuffles is interesting, I'm going to re-read all his posts tonight, and see if he doesn't strike me as scummier than arafax, but I doubt it because arafax is looking really scummy to me.

My impression of Wuffles is that he's all over the place in the various conflicts, and relatively aggressive. I think as soon as we have a few confirmed innocent/guilty, seeing how he's treated everyone will help judge him a lot. In the meantime, he's contributing to the discussion, and any scum-driven harm that comes from those contributions the rest of the town should be able to sort out.

But he just needs to realize that it would be beyond stupid, BEYOND retarded, hell, even beyond WIFOM for a mafioso to DELIBERATELY put anyone at -1 to lynch that early in the game.

That argument is actually a textbook case of WIFOM, even more so if it were phrased in the first person as "I wouldn't have done it because it's 'beyond stupid, BEYOND retarded, etc'". Plus it gives fellow scum an opportunity to call them on something that's easy to call and makes pressure on the votee seem like more than it is.

norinel: has made very few posts. would like to hear more from you.

As I already said, I'm only on Scum once per day, and will usually post when I'm here. To compensate, I try to post with quality (If not length), and address the most pertinent things that've come up. If the only way to seem active is to post something every six hours, I'll never seem active.

I suppose I'll go with my policy and

vote: Thestatusquo

unless someone can give me a very, very good reason to get a claim from someone else. Bandwagoning/lynching anyone else can only hurt us unless that someone else is scum, and I don't see any cases that are that strong.

[Thestatusquo]

I tend to agree with you norinel, unless we can assure scum, which I don't think we can, I am probably the best play for the town at this stage.

[Arafax]

I tend to agree with you norinel, unless we can assure scum, which I don't think we can, I am probably the best play for the town at this stage.

A statement like that makes me think that he is totally not scum, but I guess that would become WIFOM...However I think we need to look away from TSQ for now.

[Wuffles_II]

TSQ - You know damn well that the reason why I was willing to hammah you. You weren't making any logical sense and were not

Now, I'm going back to do the biggest freaking PBPA ever. One on both WUFFLES and TSQ. Also, maybe one of TDB and Arafax.

[Wuffles_II]

EBWODP - Last post should read:

TSQ - You know damn well that the reason why I was willing to hammah you. You weren't making any logical sense and were lashing out at anoyne who voted for you (calling them "bad players" or "scum").

Now, I'm going back to do the biggest freaking PBPA ever. One on both WUFFLES and TSQ. Also, maybe one of TDB and Arafax.

[ziliu]

I have to agree with Lowell that TSQ's policy of attacking whoever attacks him is really scummy.

I'm not that sure about Wuffles any more. I still think his posts about setting Arafax up for lynch if TSQ is lynched and found town is scummy, so the vote will stay. But looking back, Wuffles has posted quite a lot and made some valuable contribution to the game, which makes me slightly more inclined to believe he is town.

As for Arafax, yes, I think he's been confusing and incoherent. But not to the extent that TSQ seems to claim it is. I get more confused townie vibes than scum vibes from Arafax.

Right now, I get this weird feeling that maybe we're all just a bunch of townies attacking and confusing each other, while scum is laying low and watching. I'll look into those who haven't posted so much. (And yes, I know that list might include me as well, but whatever)

[spectrumvoid]

I'm really sorry for disappearing so soon after I replaced. Basically, I had to replace someone on a mega project because he went down with dengue fever. About the game proper:

Interesting... Arafax is a pretty good mafia player. So it's kinda hard to believe that he'll have 'confused townie vibes.' But then again, that's meta-gaming, and I don't like meta-ing because it's way too easy to change playstyle. I don't have a read on Arafax at the moment though. But I see TSQ trying to amplify on arafax.

It's wrong to say that a person is townie because he posts a lot and contributes. Wuffles could very well be muddying the waters, by directing us to focus on attention on the 2 people he keeps mentioning. Clarification: this is in response to ziliu's comment on why he's inclined to believe Wuffles is town. About my own view: I read Wuffles as an aggressive townie, nothing more. The case for him being scummy focuses on him trying to set up a lynch for Arafax D2. Well, setting up lynches rarely work in mafia, and Arafax did look pretty bad, so I didn't think he's scummy for pointing that out.

TSQ's latest comment that he's the best play for town sounds like he's giving up and trying to appeal to our emotion, making us think he's 'noble' and 'sacrificial.' He has presented 0 effective defense so far.

FOS TSQ Mod: VC please?

I don't want to hammer TSQ/put him at lynch -1 (for scum to pile on) accidentally since norinel just added a vote.

[Norinel]

IIt's wrong to say that a person is townie because he posts a lot and contributes. Wuffles could very well be muddying the waters, by directing us to focus on attention on the 2 people he keeps mentioning. Clarification: this is in response to ziliu's comment on why he's inclined to believe Wuffles is town.

I'm a little bit worried about that too, but I don't think it'll drown the town out as long as people other than him actually post, and it'll potentially give lots of info once we have an idea of the alignments of the people he's talking about.

[Thestatusquo]

How the hell have I presented 0 effective defense? I have responded to every point brought against me.

As to 'having given up' It's true. I'm town, but just vanilla. I feel like it's the best play to kill me then risk outing a power role.

[Arafax]

I have to agree with TSQ...As of recent, I think that he has defended himself well and I find his not so scummy anymore.

Mod

- I second the VC...Thanks!

[Wuffles_II]

'fax, just so you know, TSQ's last two attempts to appeal to emotion should NOT be taken at face value. You appear to be misinterpreting that as proof of his innocence.

I'm about halfway through my PBPA, and thus far I'm getting a town vibe from TSQ, and a scum vibe from Arafax.

Very interesting.

Unvote, Vote MOD

Votecount please, or we may be forced to lynch you.

[Primate]

OMG Wufflessux Vote Count

Thestatusquo -

2

- (Luna, Norinel)
Wuffles -

4

- (Ziliu, Lowell, CDB, TSQ)

6

to do what must be done.

I'm moving back into uni this week. I should still be on daily, but I thought I'd give you guys a heads up that I'm not always availiable atm.

[ChannelDelibird]

'fax, just so you know, TSQ's last two attempts to appeal to emotion should NOT be taken at face value

QFT

Wuffles, I noticed earlier that you were including me in particular in your "big check". Could you expand on why?

unvote

because I've been fairly satisfied by Wuffles' posts since I voted him.

Still very interested in a TSQ lynch.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm wondering where elias has went. Do we need a prod on him?

[Elias_the_thief]

sorry for not posting recently. ive been busy the past couple days. interesting you would focus on me. there are some worse lurkers than me about.
anyways, i still find TSQ the scummiest, but definately not enough for a vote. oh well. ill try to post more in the future.

[Thestatusquo]

Who exactly is more lurking than you, Elias? Everyone has posted at least 2 times since you have.

[Elias_the_thief]

posts like those of luna's cant really be called posts. what i mean is not that there are people who havent posted more recently, i mean that there are some people that are posting absolutely nothing of value or relevence, while i was just absent for a couple days.

[Thestatusquo]

Yes, you have been absent for several days, which is rather interesting because I have seen you post several times on starcraft mafia.

Also, at least luna is contributing to the conversation, which is more than you're doing.

[Arafax]

Does anyone else notice this, but are there only about 6 or 7 people posting while the others "lay low?"...There are probably 3 or 4 who rarely post....It's hard to find scum when almost half of the town is'nt particiapating that much.

[spectrumvoid]

Yup. I feel like not voting TSQ, and choosing some lurker instead. I'll think about it some more.

[Elias_the_thief]

Yes, you have been absent for several days, which is rather interesting because I have seen you post several times on starcraft mafia.

Also, at least luna is contributing to the conversation, which is more than you're doing.

i didnt say i was absent. i said i was busy. my responses for starcraft mafia were not in depth, they were only responses to keep myself from being modkilled, because the mod decided to kill off anyone who didnt post wihtin three days. if i were to make a response for this game, it would take more time because i would post something relevant. also, my internet was down last night, so i couldnt post anything then in my spare time. i apologize for that.

My question is why you are even looking at starcraft mafia. youre not in that game are you? youre really stretching to make a case against me for reasons i cant explain.

[Thestatusquo]

No, I'm not stretching. Lets look at the timetable here:

1) I point out we might need to prod you.

2) You immediately post for the first time in days, almost immediately after being called out, saying that you haven't had time to play much mafia, and that somehow explains your abscense from the game, which it would, it it were true, and in the meantime call my motives into question by stating there are 'people lurking much worse than you' This all seems a bit overdefensive seeing as I never used the word lurker, but rather enquired if we ought to prod you.

3) I politely enquire who has been lurking more than you, considering everyone has posted way more than you recently.

4) You respond by trying to shift the blame to luna, who admittedly, could be scum, but I think it's more likely a distancing technique, and saying that well...She's not posting content. This is inconsistant with your earlier claim that a) there are MANY of "them", and b) That "they" are lurking.

5)I point out that it isn't true that you have no time for mafia, because you've been posting in other threads, thus proving your claim a lie. I also point out that everyone else has posted at least 2-3x as much as you have recently, thus proving your claim of worse lurkers to also be false.

6) You respond by questioning my motives in looking at other threads

(for future reference, I didn't, I can see when you are the last person to post in a given section, lets say little italy for one, I go in, to check to see if someone has posted in this game, notices you haven't, but have instead posted in the thread right above it. but ALSO, people frequently check out other players games, both previous and current, in order to get a better read on them. It's called meta gaming.)

instead of responding to the fact that your two earlier claims have been proven wrong, and you responded to a thead that you hadn't responded to in days after a period of about an hour after being mentioned, proving you have been checking the thread frequently.


So heres the list of scummy things you just did (aka just read this part if you want to know the condensed reason for my vote, see above for more in depth stuff.)

- Overdefensive reaction to being mentioned as needing a prod.
- Proved that you have been watching the thread carefully enough to be able to post an hour after being mentioned.
- Shifting the blame, (wrongly) to luna.
- Were proved lying about 'the many people' 'lurking' which turned out to be luna posting more than you.
- Were proved wrong about not having any time for mafia.
- Instead of responding to all that, you question my metagaming in an attempt to once again shift the blame off of you and on to me.


And that was in the sequence of a few posts. I think it more than warrants an

Unvote, Vote: Elias

[spectrumvoid]

Interesting argument about meta gaming. A couple of days ago I was rushing out a big project, so I only posted in games where I was under pressure or we were close to a lynch.

But I agree that Elias timing is incredibly coincidental, especially where he posted an hour after being mentioned. And he is over defensive about the prodding issue.

But then again, TSQ has responded, but his responses are not EFFECTIVE. (reference to my earlier post). Appeals to emotion + giving up are not good defenses.

FOS both of them

[Lowell]

mod

I'm voting TSQ, not Wuffles. Thanks.

[Norinel]

sorry for not posting recently. ive been busy the past couple days. interesting you would focus on me. there are some worse lurkers than me about.
anyways, i still find TSQ the scummiest, but definately not enough for a vote. oh well. ill try to post more in the future.

TSQ hit the good stuff, but I for one can't think of a worse way to respond to a "Do we need to prod X?" post. Still, I'm a little disturbed by how TSQ threw the actual response to the "Why are you posting there but not here" question under the rug. I'll grant that Elias' response to the attacks wasn't a great one, but he did respond to both of them with a reason why they shouldn't go straight to "proven wrong".

Does anyone else notice this, but are there only about 6 or 7 people posting while the others "lay low?"...There are probably 3 or 4 who rarely post....It's hard to find scum when almost half of the town is'nt particiapating that much.

Do I fall into this category? If so (As I said in post 250), if the only way to seem active is to post every six hours, I'll never seem active. I'm doing what I can otherwise.