Ok, catching up on this day. Sorry for not more constructively contributing earlier. I've been all over the place this week, and my other games have demanded a lot of time due to deadlines. My activity will definitely pick up as I move past finals. Apologies for wall catch-up in advance. Won't become a habit.
Are you sure this isn't hindsight now that you know Shamrock flipped scum? Wanting to wait for a claim with a week before deadline is rather standard, and I don't see it as abnormal. Shamrock's six posts were not bad enough to warrant not waiting for a claim, in my opinion. If Shamrock flipped town, would you consider this questionable still?
In post 368, Jabberwock wrote:Still not lynching Bacde - him claiming BG and then starting up a counterwagon on his goon buddy is suicidal and non-sensical from a scum PoV.
I don't think Bacde's vote put much pressure on Shamrock. With it did do was twofold. First, it served to allow Bacde to put his vote in a position that is totally non-controversial. I mean, no one would argue with him for wanting lurkers to speak up, especially in this game. This could lessen pressure on him or at least prevent an increase in pressure, and he was certainly under fire. You can actually see how this worked well for him in the very next post by Ice:
In post 188, ICEninja wrote:PEDIT: I'm a bit conflicted now regarding this most recent post. The first paragraph once again seems to be him recognizing that he simply has no case but still wants Nacho lynched. I approve of lurker hunting as a rule, though.
Second, it served as a subtle indicator to Shamrock that he needed to get his ass in the game, which was definitely true at this point. No real pressure was put on Shamrock by this vote because Bacde didn't provide any case against Shamrock - he identified him as a lurker, which was going to happen anyway.
Also, Bacde was trying to put pressure onto Nacho for much of the end of that day. He also didn't keep his vote or pressure on Shamrock. I don't think he intended to put real pressure on Shamrock, and the pressure certainly didn't come from him. The real case on Shamrock came from others.
In post 371, Bacde wrote: In post 369, Rob14 wrote:
Post #344 - The first bit is Bacde essentially screaming "Look! Someone's taking me seriously and thinks I'm town! I AM scumhunting! Give me all of them town-points!" Also, this "case" made me want to throw my computer out of a window. If you are
town
(highly unlikely), then you're tunnelling on Nacho because you know that a switch at this point would give you away. If Nacho dies during the night, I strongly suspect Bacde because he's backed himself into a corner with his overly aggressive Nacho attack.
That's a weird thing to say. Why would I care about "giving myself away"? I think you meant scum here. What about my previous case made you want to "throw your computer out of a window"? I appreciate your rhetoric but don't see your logic.
That sentence by me is borderline incoherent. Hell if I know what it was supposed to read. I was on very little sleep when I wrote that. Sorry 'bout that. I explained what I meant more coherently in my case on you posted earlier today.
In post 371, Bacde wrote:What about my previous case made you want to "throw your computer out of a window"? I appreciate your rhetoric but don't see your logic.
In post 344, Bacde wrote:Nacho, I like how you are finally addressing me as a threat to your scumship. I'm not someone to be "hahahaha'd" lightly away, and you are finally realizing this aren't you? I really like how you are concentrating on your read of me as town (as though that will affect you being scum in any way). You KNOW I have a good case on you, so you finally have to address my points. I KNEW I'd catch you.
Blaming other people, focussing on having a townread of me. Guess what, having a townread on me won't stop the thunder. Why is it so important for you to emphasize both that YOU specifically have a townread on me, but that other people don't?
This doesn't indicate alignment. He just pointed out that your post #339 didn't make much sense. You acted like him thinking you're town and him identifying that other people don't like your claim is a contradiction. It isn't.
You didn't say that, and now you are backtracking. Its ok, go ahead and flail loud enough for everyone in the thread to see. You got away the first time but now you are seriously caught.
A whole lot of rhetoric and very little substance. You fail to acknowledge that Nacho's post was specifically in response to a post that asked "What if Shamrock is a PR?" It was obvious from the context of the question he was responding to that he was talking about a hypothetical.
Again, something you were caught on. I like how you respond to my really good arguments in all caps. It lets me know that I'm hitting close to home.
Again, a lot of rhetoric, little substance. Townies can't assume specific night kills because they don't know who scum will target. Indeed, if we acknowledge that Shamrock's claim wouldn't be well received, then it's possible that scum wouldn't kill them off because they are targets for mislynches.
My vote is on shamrock, no need to tell me to hammer him. Why would you imply that only one out of me/shamrock is scum? You slipped bro, plain and simple.
He clearly identified in his post that this hypothetical was if we got to a LyLo situation in which we have to choose between the two of you.
In post 340, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 339, Bacde wrote:How can he make those three assumptions without outside knowledge?
Assumption 1: How would I know with outside knowledge? If I told Shamrock to claim PR if he was wagonned? But now I am pushing Shamrock to be hammered now, and not give my scumbuddy with a fakeclaim a chance to claim. Why would I do that?
Assumption 2: How would I know as scum? You're a bodyguard, right? Which means that you could successfully protect someone and die overnight?
Assumption 3: Okay, let's assume that I'm making this assumption. And I am pushing to lynch Shamrock. And I lynch Shamrock. He flips scum. Now you are town and I cannot push you because of my assumption. So...?
you say that I am making assumptions that I am not
you say that I have outside knowledge to be making this assumptions
but that knowledge doesn't help at all
1) Yes, exactly those things. And because you are worried about looking town, which you have been interested in doing the WHOLE GAME. And lets be real, you just slipped that Shamrock is scum.
This is a clear hypothetical. He's typing from the POV of scum-him and asking you to identify why he would do what you've claimed he's done as scum. It's frankly funny that you're claiming that he slipped and said Shamrock was his scumbuddy.
2) Scum know more about who is going to die at night than town do.
True, but again, he was clear in his post that he was looking at a hypothetical situation. He was looking at the worst case scenario, as he's already explained to you. And scum doesn't know for sure who's going to die. Doctors, bodygaurds, roleblockers, bulletproof, etc.
3) Why are you focusing on your belief that I am town, rather than my argument that you are scum? You see, I'm not worried about looking like I'm town. And I really don't give a
[removed]
if you read me as town, because you are scum. You are focusing on the wrong thing. I caught you
slip
bro. How would you know that only 1 out of me and Shamrock are scum?
Again, he clearly identified in his post that this hypothetical was if we got to a LyLo situation in which we have to choose between the two of you. That's why his hypothetical situation has only one of you as scum.
Why is your defense that "outside knowledge wouldn't help me" rather than "I don't have outside knowlege"? This post reeks of "I'm caught but disagree with your reasoning" mentality.
He's arguing that your premises of your post on him don't even make sense because the outside knowledge you claim he must have had in order to make those assumptions wouldn't even help him make those assumptions. Disproving your argument by disproving the basis of it is a valid way to prove you wrong.
Responses in bold.
In hindsight, I shouldn't have posted my notes. I kind of did it out of laziness so that I could tell myself I didn't need to write a more formal catch-up post with quotes, but I'm always kind of lazy while writing my notes, so it didn't really help make it clear where my reads came from and why I like certain people as town or scum.
In post 373, Cheery Dog wrote:
I'm not seeing this from that post, it still is just a weird post to me (and in my reasoning for voting absta yesterday), what makes absta super town?
In post 53, absta101 wrote:VOTE: Disturbed
Hit a wall with jmo, i'd be okay with a lynch of him.
This post struck me as an attempt to see how Disturbed reacted to pressure because he hadn't been under pressure from anyone but iam yet. Absta kind of sided with Disturbed against JMO early on. I think this is an appropriate reaction to the JMO argument, which wasn't getting Absta or Disturbed anywhere, and the fact that Disturbed's switch to ice was a bit odd and deserved looking at.
In post 380, jmo16mla wrote:I was shit loaded with finals. I know I didn't give my fair share of scum hunting. I even acknowledged it. I will re read thread and probably post tonight.
Okay, look forward to it.
In post 382, Mirhawk wrote:Also, there's no merit in lynching someone who's very survival (or lack thereof) could prove their alignment in the later days. Lynching him before day three at the very least is stupid.
I don't have much experience (read: none) with bodyguards and hadn't thought of this. I still think Bacde is scummy, but if he'll be dead in a future day as a result of a PR claiming, then I have no problem moving to pressure others instead.
Unvote
In post 386, ICEninja wrote:Mirhawk wrote:
He's claiming a role that has double the chance to die at night as any other player. Just being alive makes him suspicious.
Not at all. The likelihood of scum shooting Bacde is just about zero. If he's scum, obviously. If he's town, then he's going to be an easy mislynch. So the only way he's going to die is if he correctly guesses who scum is going to shoot. I guessed Jabber was going to eat the bullet, apparently Bacde (if he was town) thought so also. Scum shot someone who wasn't the obvious protection. Duh?
Well, scum may shoot town-Bacde early (probably Night 1, which notably didn't happen) in order to free themselves up to kill a claimed PR later in the game without having to go through Bacde first. As scum, I would have shot Bacde Night 1, even though he was the "easy" mislynch. The benefit of potentially killing a claimed PR later in the game that could have horrible effects on scum would outweigh the mislynch of Bacde.
In post 391, Mirhawk wrote:ebwop
@Rob
I don't see it that way. Scum don't know who is or isn't a PR at this point, why worry about accidentally killing the only known PR. I doubt this was the reason they targeted Disturbed.
I concede this point, now that I think about it more.
In post 401, ICEninja wrote:Jabber just spent an extensive amount of effort buddying up to me. This feels sketchy as hell, as since there was no pressure on me what-so-ever, the only reason I can think of someone would want to do this is to continue to get me to follow along with their reads.
Identifying you as a town read and supplying reasons isn't buddying.
In post 406, ICEninja wrote:Jabber I'm not saying it's suspicious that you've got good reasoning for having a town read on me, but Nacho's "still liking ICE for town" is pretty much all town needs to say. Scum on the other hand would want to make me feel good by really delving in to why I'm town. Now if I was on the chopping block, then yeah you'd need to convince people that I'm town, but I don't think very many people need much in the way of convincing.
It's just as pro-town to explain why you're town now as to explain why you're town when you're about to be lynched, if not more so. If Jabber spends time convincing others you're town now, then town won't potentially waste a huge block of time considering your lynch. See what I mean?
In response to Posts 410 and 411: I don't think a doc should claim until the day before LyLo. If the doc is NK'd, then we lynch Bacde the next day and he's no longer a problem as scum. If the doc makes it to the day before LyLo, then he more days to try to prevent a NK (and hopefully succeed) and he still calls out Bacde and Bacde dies. We are down one scum either way, but a doc waiting to claim gives us a higher chance of a protect.
In post 413, Mirhawk wrote:@iam
Well you're completely wrong for the record but if you don't want to discuss it anymore that's fine.
Also Robs "catch" on Jmo is terrible. Any town player who acts scummy and gets lynched is regarded as a bad player, but somehow mentioning that you're trying to avid this is a scumtell.
There are other reasons I think JMO is scum. I'll write up a case on him Soon (TM). Probably tomorrow after my last class.
Post #414 by Ice feels like it comes from town to me. I already had a town read on him, but this confirms it further. I can go into this if needed.
I gave my reason for liking one of his posts for town above. I can respond to specific points in my write up earlier if you want, or I can respond to any posts you bring up about him if you write a case on him. I'm not going to go through his ISO and explain why every single post doesn't look scummy. He has a near absense of scummy posts from my first read-through.
In post 416, jmo16mla wrote:
I feel like this is a fabricated reaction.
And also rob, your case against me about voting, tell me you have NEVER in RVS, even as town, tried to not vote someone who was already voted. Same theory.
Your reactions were bad, not your vote.
That post was bad before the flip too. On page 11, he's still focused on the reasons why people were voting him on page 1 rather than on scum-hunting. That doesn't look good at all.
In post 420, Cheery Dog wrote: In post 405, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 393, Cheery Dog wrote:The nightkill is making me definity think jmo town though, he had his vote on disturbed the whole way through day 1, and if he would then go and nightkill him, it would be a waste of their cheif suspect.
Dangerous reasoning. It's called a scumteam for a reason, and a scumpartner choosing who to kill and jmo going along with it is not outside the realms of possibility.
That could be the case, I just don't see it when jmo had been on him all day yesterday. (unless it was to get him to move onto someone else I guess)
Watch out with this reasoning. It's WIFOM. I've used this exact reasoning to kill someone before as scum. See
Newbie 1295. I killed N because I had pressured him all day and felt I had nowhere left to go with attacking him. I then argued that I would never have killed N because it left me with little chances of winning in LyLo when the other two players were people that I had said were strong town reads of mine all agme. I wound up winning mostly because the confirmed-town casting the deciding vote didn't think that it was likely that I performed both that gambit and another where I claimed to accidently have soft-claimed (when in reality I soft-claimed VT somewhat on purpose).
Note to self: Need to return to Post #422 and re-read Cheery. This will take a while, so I'll post the results of this later.
In post 425, Bacde wrote:@Rob13 has JMO had any actions that you consider scummy or is it just this interaction that is throwing you off? Cuz I'll admit I have a townread on JMO so I've been cutting him slack in places such as his WIFOM logic post because I see him as a weaker player. I said "Good Post" because he said he thought nacho was fishy. I still don't see him as scum and he hasn't been trying to lead anyone astray, as a scum player would.
There are other reasons. Will write a case tomorrow. I think I said this earlier in this post. Not sure, so putting it here too.
Why?
In post 433, Bacde wrote:Something about saying that you
have
to lynch me makes me uneasy. Why am I a necessary lynch?
You can't make it to LyLo, in my opinion. If you get that far in the game, then you'll be lynched because you aren't dead yet as a bodyguard. So we lynch you a day earlier, which gives us a chance to focus on other people in LyLo just in case you're town.
In post 434, Mirhawk wrote:@Jmo
Who are your current scumreads? I see no mention anywhere of a single person you suspect other then disturbed.
@Rob
When you wrote your thread synopsis did you read the thread and then write it, or did you write it as you read the thread?
I want to see the scumreads of JMO as well. Preferably an explanation of his reads on everyone, actually.
I wrote my catch-up thing as I read the thread. I was lazy, and it is next to useless now that I look at it more closely. I can explain anything vague in it upon request.
In post 435, Cheery Dog wrote: In post 422, ICEninja wrote:
Cheery wrote:
I was just about to come and hammer him though
And it just feels really faked to me. It's the only emoticon I've seen him use all game, and reading the context of everything, it just doesn't make sense. ESPECIALLY considering how the rest of the post is his little "case" against absta, and he hardly mentions Shamrock from that point on. It reads very much as a fake reaction to me.
That would be reading take because out was, as per my second line of said post.
If I had actually wanted to hammer,i would have done so anyway even with someone requesting that we didn't hammer straight away. I don't think I ever use emotes seriously.
Please explain the bolded sentence. Not sure if English.
Also, please supply an example of you using an emote in a town game. A few, if possible.
In post 437, Jabberwock wrote:Rob13--that case on Bacde is nice and all, especially the bits where you blatantly parrot us, but have you actually noticed all that discussion that says Bacde is not an optimal lynch Today? Why did you jump over that discussion without mentioning it, and instead keep pushing at a vote that is worthless because it won't lead to a lynch?
Bacde is not Today's lynch. Move your vote elsewhere.
Hadn't really read this day much yet. My attention has been elsewhere. Hence this catch-up.
Would like more of an explanation of the Melmond case from Jabber, which he promised in #441.
In post 445, Cheery Dog wrote: In post 436, ICEninja wrote:Still feels weird to me. Care to explain why you're responding to things but not scum hunting? Who do you think is scum, and why?
I'm working on that (in my head anyway)
Also have been waiting for Rob's call on why post 53 is super town, since it hasn't happened, I'll have to put him down as plausible scum, he had time to right a case on bacde but not to answer a simple question.
My small case still stands on absta.
VOTE: Rob13
Can't respond to what I haven't read yet. Sorry?
In post 446, Jabberwock wrote:The point is:
he was drunk and made a move he perceives as scummy.
Do you think such a self-conscious person would have been posting in a game while drunk if he was worried he was giving himself away? No, he wouldn't--the fact that he was posting then is indication that he lost some of that inhibition and posted because heck, he's Town and can do whatever he wants.
Drunk people to silly things regardless of their alignment in an online forum game. I don't agree with this reasoning.
@447: Sorry. I didn't know you were trying to quit, or I wouldn't have shoved a wall right in front of your face.
All caught up. Will get to writing up something on JMO and looking at Cheery tomorrow, as well as deciding where to place my vote. Probably will look at Melmond too, since Jabber seems to see something in him.
that