Newbie 1309: Never Say Never - Game Over

[Earlder1]

Well this is surprising. AJ gave intent to hammer and then backed off, putting Mollie in the decision chair. Given how sudden it is, and how little had changed between his intent and his switch, I think it's possible AJ just doesn't want to look bad by hammering. This sort of rubs me the wrong way...

(Don't get your hopes up Mollie, I'm not changing my vote to AJ)

Also, I find AJ's reason that "Majiffy won't stop until Earl is gone" to be mildly annoying. As independent as AJ initially came off, now he seems to be sort of going with the flow. Both of these plays seem anti-town to me.

FoS: AJ

[Aj The Epic]

Earlder, I declared that I would give an intent, so it should be understood that I have nothing against the wagon. Would you view anyone any better/worse for hammering that wagon than if they were on the wagon to begin with?

What DOESN'T make sense about your argument is why would I not just take an intent to hammer and role with it? Easy lynch, if I'm rolling with Majiffy. Suspicion might be cast on me, but I by no means lead that wagon. So, why not just take the easy way out if I was scum? The only counter-argument is that Fuzzy is my partner.

[Earlder1]

Words are words AJ. If I give an intent and then don't follow through, I would argue that saying your intent means nothing. It all seems like it's about appearances with you.

"I gave an intent so I'm obviously fine with this wagon" is just you talking when your action do something else. How do we know you are ok lynching Fuzz? We don't since all you did was 'say' you were ok with it.

Once again, it's about appearances. Not taking the easy lynch would make sense if you don't want the attention. Same with not hammering. You did both of these things and this is why I think you appear scummy. You're riding a fence, not really taking any sides. You say one thing and do another and put another player in the role on making the actual hammer.

I think it is scummy.

[Aj The Epic]

-Suggesting me and Fuzzy are a scum team
-Suggesting that this somehow matters
-Suggesting that words are the deciding issue when I explain intentions prove you wrong
-Invalidating what I said as simply words

I'm putting P_M in the spotlight to see her reaction and choice. In my mind, I know I'm town and thus wouldn't learn anything about me from my own hammer, would I? Plus, I find myself arguing with you far more than Fuzzy. Fuzzy could just be way too new to play as properly as you should be able to.

[fuzzybutternut]

Eh, I'm not too sure how that works, honestly. Though, I suppose you're right. Even in the games I played, the two scummiest players weren't lynched back to back.

[Earlder1]

Should be able to? Am I playing badly? And let me get this straight. You say Fuzz is new and doesn't play properly, and this is someone you want to leave on your town team? You would rather a player with no contribution and no idea what's going on be left alive? I mean, what you're saying seems like you're ok being on the same 'town team' as someone who you yourself says doesn't play properly. That doesn't seem like a town team I'd want to be a part of...

And yes, it is just words. What if I say "Guys, I know who scum is! It's Jason!" but then proceed to vote Fuzz. Well then my words didn't do anything, now did they? I said them, sure, but didn't back them up, didn't follow through. Obvious this game is trying to catch the liars. That's the point. And saying one thing and doing another puts you dangerously close to that category my friend.

[fuzzybutternut]

^That was to Mala, btw.

@Earl,

so, you're basically saying that new people are completely useless in games and they should be auto-lynched?

[Earlder1]

Of course not. What I'm saying is people who have demonstrated they are useless should be lynched.

[pirate mollie]

PM, present a case, but I'm still finding AJ townish.

Only problem earlier in the Day you found AJ and Jason town because they were moving in herds which is you find town and then you switched

.

Fuzzy, just because one flips one alignment and the other hasn't flipped doesn't mean they are going to be lynched. If someone did that; I'd find that person scummy for lining up lynches which is anti-town at the least and scummy at the most.

I would still like to hear why Jason changed his reads.

Off topic: BUT HOLY BATMAN, I'm sneezing nonstop

I never said I found aj townish ever. I did say he was more likeable but that was cos of he dealt with the drama.

you are thinking of dx3 and jason.

jason is being so cagey and is avoiding this game that I just don't know what to think. I don't like either bw I know that much but I doubt their is anything that I can really do.

working on the case. I am not very good at them I simply am reliant on a different skill set and none of them include presenting cases in the same way you guys do on here.

probably also going to start a spreadsheet. haven't done one in a long time.

[JasonWazza]

Also, I'd like to point out that I have, without a doubt, helped town.

A.) Earl is so confident with this decision of his that he's willing to risk his life to take mine
B.) He just really doesn't like me that much and doesn't care either way
C) He is town, not helping town, by trying to Lynch town.

That is for us to decide not you.

With the letters, which do you think is true and why? (also i like how you never implied scum in these 3 options yet i am pretty sure you never unvoted him)

A) that could easily be a town trying to get the person they think is scum and actually shows a town mindset over a scum one
B) Though this is an anti-town mindset it isn't a scum mindset, because scum still don't want themselves lynched.
C) Calling yourself town before your confirmed (or flipped) just makes you seem more scummy.

VOTE: fuzzybutternut

This is why i changed Mala, he gave a situation that earl could easily be town in every single situation he gave, hence i feel this is coming from scum (voting someone when the evidence could easily come from a town mindset)

I will try to make a case for aj later this afternoon when I get home. I would really rather see aj lynched than either of the 2 bws tbh.

Stop sidelining your vote and make a choice.

Sadly again i have to agree with Majiffy.

jason is being so cagey and is avoiding this game that I just don't know what to think. I don't like either bw I know that much but I doubt their is anything that I can really do.

how am i avoiding this game? >.>

[pirate mollie]

Of course not. What I'm saying is people who have demonstrated they are useless should be lynched.

well your approach is pretty useless tbh and you don't want to lynch useless players you should be wanting to lynch scum.

if town is stuck in a crunch then yeah, lynch the useless players. but you have been trying to paint fuzzy as scummy from the get go and have been pretty sticky with it. what you have described as scummy behaviour from fuzzy are not actual scumtells. my problem is the cog-dis piece with him and it hard to tell with newbs which is why I give them a bit more wiggle room which is why I will probably hammer you if it has to come down to it.

[pirate mollie]

jason is being so cagey and is avoiding this game that I just don't know what to think. I don't like either bw I know that much but I doubt their is anything that I can really do.

how am i avoiding this game? >.>

by not posting as much compared to your previous games.

[Earlder1]

I think the only way you can really call my approach useless is if Fuzz flips town. As far as I'm concerned, he's the scummiest player and therefore the most likely to flip scum. I understand the idea to give newbs wiggle room but that's certainly not a strategic mindset. Read an iso on Fuzz. Then ask yourself, as town, will he be helpful day 2? Day 3? If you come to that conclusion and still wish to give him wiggle room, then I can think of only two reasons why. You are either scum and want weaker town players around, or you are just not playing to win.

If you are planning on hammering me, however, please announce intent so I can have some final words to the town.

[Malakittens]

oh god aj is town cos he is fucking nesting and crowing from a game that he just pwned me in as scum.

PM, present a case, but I'm still finding AJ townish.

Only problem earlier in the Day you found AJ and Jason town because they were moving in herds which is you find town and then you switched

.

Fuzzy, just because one flips one alignment and the other hasn't flipped doesn't mean they are going to be lynched. If someone did that; I'd find that person scummy for lining up lynches which is anti-town at the least and scummy at the most.

I would still like to hear why Jason changed his reads.

Off topic: BUT HOLY BATMAN, I'm sneezing nonstop

I never said I found aj townish ever. I did say he was more likeable but that was cos of he dealt with the drama.

you are thinking of dx3 and jason.

Well, actually you did. Located here.

You're right. I was thinking of the D3x/Jason conversation not AJ/Jason. Sorry about that.

[Earlder1]

Btw, in case anyone missed it:

Various AJ quotes:

Okay, no need for stupid scenerios. I think Earlder and Teo are scum. Whenever I see Earlder post, I get this odd feeling that he is trying so very hard to find someone suspicious to draw a lynch on.

Of course, you've also got the same situation with Fuzzy. And I do need to unvote because I haven't been liking the posts by Fuzzy any more than I've liked the posts by Earlder. Fuzzy has basically gone to the point of "He's accusing me of being scum! LAL, because I'm not scum", which doesn't really work for me.

Really, if I was voting on substance and not using any gut feeling, I'd probably lynch Fuzzy after Ant, but P_M's vote and the strong possibility that she's scum has stopped me.

Earlder has defended arguments well. Majiffy, you see it, I see it. Shift targets.

Fuzzy, town involves themselves everywhere they can. Do so as well.

Okay, if I recall, Fuzzy is at a L-1. We have three days and so someone should probably put the intent tonight. That way, he's forced in RC by natural order of having to post within the time to not get prodded. Hammer if he doesn't.

I would like to declare an intent to hammer. Are there any objections for putting an intent to hammer on Fuzzy at this point?

Let's make this interesting.

VOTE: Earlder

Have fun, P_M. I'm fine with either, but willing to go with Majiffy for this one. Your choice, so you get the honors of the intent to hammer.

I haven't seen so many flip-flops since summer. I don't want this to fly under the radar.

[pirate mollie]

I think the only way you can really call my approach useless is if Fuzz flips town. As far as I'm concerned, he's the scummiest player and therefore the most likely to flip scum. I understand the idea to give newbs wiggle room but that's certainly not a strategic mindset.

Read an iso on Fuzz. Then ask yourself, as town, will he be helpful day 2? Day 3? If you come to that conclusion and still wish to give him wiggle room, then I can think of only two reasons why. You are either scum and want weaker town players around, or you are just not playing to win.

If you are planning on hammering me, however, please announce intent so I can have some final words to the town.

wrt the bold: you lynch a null if you are in a situ where you do not have a solid scum read. you both look scummy but unfortunately I have had the experience of playing with players who look scummy all of the time hence my shift on total reliance on objective tells to using meta and relative tells. obviously the meta will be weaker when you are playing with players you do not know.

I think you might both be town for different reasons and it is mostly cos I am looking at who is really side-lining. one of the things you have to learn is how tell the difference between a town flail and a scum flail when the player put under pressure.

I look at the motivation behind the posts. why are they asking that question? what is the motivation behind that post? I try to interact with every player to get a "feel" for them. I have good arguments for both you and fuzzy being town or scum. I am a rhythm player I rely more on how things fall into place in a thread rather than iso. iso is not the be all end all to scumhunting lol. in thread game interaction can tell you far more IMO especially wrt to associative tells which is what I mean when I say "timing". since half of the players site flaked this is hard to do. it puts the whole game out of step which makes it hard to get reads on people.

[pirate mollie]

oh god aj is town cos he is fucking nesting and crowing from a game that he just pwned me in as scum.

PM, present a case, but I'm still finding AJ townish.

Only problem earlier in the Day you found AJ and Jason town because they were moving in herds which is you find town and then you switched

.

Fuzzy, just because one flips one alignment and the other hasn't flipped doesn't mean they are going to be lynched. If someone did that; I'd find that person scummy for lining up lynches which is anti-town at the least and scummy at the most.

I would still like to hear why Jason changed his reads.

Off topic: BUT HOLY BATMAN, I'm sneezing nonstop

I never said I found aj townish ever. I did say he was more likeable but that was cos of he dealt with the drama.

you are thinking of dx3 and jason.

Well, actually you did. Located here.

You're right. I was thinking of the D3x/Jason conversation not AJ/Jason. Sorry about that.

yeah we were both coming off another game.

new info (as in he has posted more) = new read

surprised you are not getting this

[Malakittens]

No, I totally get it. Reads change throughout the game. I don't think I ever played in a game where reads have stayed totally constant.

I'm just stating even though I did mix up two facts. There's truth in my statement that you FOUND AJ town earlier. >.>

[pirate mollie]

I forgot that I said that tbh.

what is it about aj that you find townish?

[Malakittens]

I'll reply to that later. I have to go out for a few hours with more errands.

[fuzzybutternut]

Of course not. What I'm saying is people who have demonstrated they are useless should be lynched.

Okay, let me ask you this. How in the hell do you expect anyone to learn how to play the game if you're all "lets lynch him because he has no idea what he's doing and is useless to town."

That isn't a very good way to pass on new information.

[Majiffy]

Earlder is screaming scum with his misrep of Fuzz, and false dichotomy (and also his "you're scum if you don't do as I say") to Mollie on this page alone should merit a lynch. Fucking hammer already.

[JasonWazza]

jason is being so cagey and is avoiding this game that I just don't know what to think. I don't like either bw I know that much but I doubt their is anything that I can really do.

how am i avoiding this game? >.>

by not posting as much compared to your previous games.

Ok now this is extremely unfair.

It's 3 days to christmas here,

of course i am going to post less

You can't use this to call me scum because of RL

P.S: After Christmas/Boxing day posting should pick up heavily.

[pirate mollie]

Earlder is screaming scum with his misrep of Fuzz, and false dichotomy (and also his "you're scum if you don't do as I say") to Mollie on this page alone should merit a lynch. Fucking hammer already.

why were you perfectly fine with aj misrepping me?

why did you ask aj to trust you? when have you guys played together in order for you to have earned that trust from him?

[Malakittens]

There was a few posts by AJ that I found town-like and due to that I'm having him on a town side of my list.

I did like his Post 198.
- He was reading the thread and explained why he felt both Earl and Teo were scum.

Post 206 was another one that I did like.
- He explained to Earl in detail what he didn't like about his posts against Fuzzy.
- He also took what looks as a town-motivated post towards Fuzzy.

Post 261
- Shows a lot of interest in scum hunting. Gives out reads on everyone.
- He addresses at looking at both Jiffy and PM.
- He explains why Fuzzy decreased to the same scum level as Earl.

288 & 344

- Applies pressure and questions reads.

399

- A lot of analysis on players.