Mini 1413 - The Mind Reader Mafia - Game Over


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Post Post #550 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:09 pm

Post by Lastsurvivor »

@Mehdi: I C. Fair enough I suppose.

In post 541, Jal wrote:What do you make of her vote on Guille, LS?


looks like a bus. Mala had no real suspicion of Guille beforehand (remember, gut-town null), and then she suddenly votes him once it was pretty obvious that Guille was going down. I think that's why she stuck in that "I still think Adam's scum..." comment at the end...in an attempt to justify her switch.

In post 542, Malakittens wrote:@LS: I did say usually. You happened to pick the one scum game where I didn't bus because there wasn't a need to do so.


Which totally brings your meta defense into question. What makes one game more necessary to bus in than the other? Looking in some of your previous scum games, it looks like you bus one partner more heavily than the other (I'm looking at Murder on the HMS Regalia where you bus BK much more than you do Image). Who's to say you haven't been bussing one partner this entire game while ignoring Guille, who was absent most of yesterday?

Point is: You do not have some conclusive "uber bussing" meta that somehow forbids you from creating a fence-read on Guile.
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Post Post #551 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:48 pm

Post by Malakittens »

Yeah, I realized that after I posted that PA wasn't a hammer vote, but an L-1 vote. I tend to screw things up after going by memory rather than actual facts.

PA did not hammer and you gave PA a town read for similar thinking.


Actually I never said I gave her a town read. Please note my "tentative" town read. Meaning it would be after the flip that I would solidify my read on Penguin. Just because someone is in the same mindset doesn't mean they are scum. It was clear that she read my post before voting which means that she could have taken my post and changed it to her will before voting.

---

Also to me GreyICE is not cleared to me. The fact he wasn't killed when he was a huge contributor to Guille's death is astounding. He didn't find Guille scum at first, but then later on changed Guille to a scum read for his catch-up posts. During the following posts he gives an explanation on why he wants Guille and I dead. (Catch-up posts are scummy) Then he raged when he found out that Guille was hammered by Lora.

---

@Jal: Can you link me to the scum game on LS?

---

Which totally brings your meta defense into question. What makes one game more necessary to bus in than the other? Looking in some of your previous scum games, it looks like you bus one partner more heavily than the other (I'm looking at Murder on the HMS Regalia where you bus BK much more than you do Image). Who's to say you haven't been bussing one partner this entire game while ignoring Guille, who was absent most of yesterday?

Point is: You do not have some conclusive "uber bussing" meta that somehow forbids you from creating a fence-read on Guile.


It doesn't. It depends on the type of town that we have and how badly the partners are in danger.
I haven't. Try taking my word and I wouldn't ignore Guille. I know how he plays as town, but barely know how he plays as scum. I literally have only played with scum-Guille once and I was barely around for that game. When Guille is town - he's good to have around and not worthless. He was absent during another town game I was in, but he came and contributed. This game he was different and I thought it was the V/LA, but I was proven wrong. He's sometimes a lot more absent as scum then he is as town - though I noticed him V/LA and a shit-ton of catchup posts as town too, but those have a lot more content.

Yeah - I guess my "bussing" is more commonly when there's only another scum partner then when there's multiple.

I'm starting to think you are just being arrogant now. You tried building a meta-case against me earlier in Day 1, but was proven wrong by looking at ISO's.
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Post Post #552 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:20 pm

Post by Jal »

How did Guille's flip exactly make PA a scum read? I don't get it. What if he flipped town?

He didn't rage either. I don't call that rage. It took him such a long time to even notice.

I am lazy, but a scum game of Lastsurvivor is Buckshot mafia on this forum recently.
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Post Post #553 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:36 pm

Post by Malakittens »

Because how fast his wagon built up - I would think at least one person on his wagon could be scum. She voted him which put him at L-1 because she wanted an explanation. Which looks like bussing to me.

If he flipped town.. Honestly, I'm not really sure. I think it would look worse on Lora mainly due to the hammer because it was sloppy and quick as hell.

It looks pretty ragey and he was catching up Jal. So it took him a few posts to get to that part.
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Post Post #554 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:38 pm

Post by Jal »

How would the town flip look for PA?
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Post Post #555 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:40 pm

Post by Jal »

In post 551, Malakittens wrote:Please note my "tentative" town read. Meaning it would be after the flip that I would solidify my read on Penguin.


Were you expecting a flip?
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Post Post #556 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:44 pm

Post by Malakittens »

I was expecting someone's flip, but I wasn't sure it would be Guille, but since Penguin put him at L-1.. I was expecting someone to express intent to hammer yes. Did I expect Lora to hammer like that? No.

I'm not sure if he flipped town how it would look on Penguin. She was previously leaning null to me anyways, but I was watching for her usual scum-meta-tells. (I did answer that question)
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Post Post #557 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:49 pm

Post by Malakittens »

I swear I feel as if you are just grilling me right now to see if I answer a question not to your liking so you can vote me. >.>
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Post Post #558 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:56 pm

Post by Jal »

I'm having trouble seeing how a scum flip reflects more badly than a town flip for PA. In either circumstance, PA voted right after you, put him at L-1, used the same vote reasoning (and saw your prior post), and you gave a tentative town read. You obviously thought Guille was scummy enough to vote for, so I assume when you say tentative town read on someone based on a flip and their reasoning, that you think it'll be a scum flip. Otherwise, why are you voting for Guille in the first place?

If I wanted a valid reason to vote you, all I would need to say is "Sheeping GreyIce" and I don't think people would give a crap. Or, you know, have voted for you right away instead of LS quotign yesterday's reasons.
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Post Post #559 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:18 pm

Post by Malakittens »

NO, we did not vote with the same reasoning. She voted similarly, but not the same. She used one of my own points and put him to L-1 for an explanation. I gave her a tentative town read because at the time she was in my line of thoughts which made me feel like she could be town, but after the flip I'm not certain because the L-1 does look like a bus. Both Guille and Penguin had little interactions.

That is so not a valid reason to vote me by saying "Sheeping GreyICE' when we don't know he's fucking town. I have always disliked sheeps for that reason alone because sheeping the wrong person at the wrong time can equal a loss.

In post 486, Jal wrote:Mala and Penguin aren't scum buddies. Mala isn't a complete derp. She wouldn't have put attention onto Penguin at the start of the day like that - and keep on doing so after no one really cared that much about Penguin's late arrival. She is not a "random busser" on the same level as AP is, if you get what I mean Mastin.


You are so quick to forget you said that. Even though it's mostly pointed at PA-Me as scum buddies and not all connected to Guille.

---

So, let me ask you this? Does my post
look like bussing to you?
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #560 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:50 pm

Post by Jal »

What about the other stuff I listed though?

Wait, do you think I have both you and PA as scum? haha no.

I've been thinking Mehdi and you scum if so.

I did not think it looked like bussing.
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Post Post #561 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:53 pm

Post by Malakittens »

If she really wanted an explanation prior she could have kept following it up - which she didn't.
I wanted an explanation from Adam - Which I kept following up until I realized that he disappeared from the face of the earth.

---

List me your current reads right now. Scum to town please.
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Post Post #562 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:01 pm

Post by Jal »

What does the above have to do with what I said? What explanation could she do once Lor quick hammered? Or do you mean the L-1? Because, you could have unvoted yourself.

I listed just about all my scum reads at the beginning of the day. + or - Penguin as well I guess, but more of a nothing read than scum. I don't have a good penguin read. Everyone else I'm reading as townie to an extent.
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Post Post #563 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:21 pm

Post by Malakittens »

She could have followed it up PRIOR to him hammering. She was in the thread just about the same time he was. Post #469 was around the same time he was posting. If it was so dire of a post she wanted him to explain she could have re quoted it. This was a bit earlier than the hammer. Plus if she really wanted an explanation she could have avoided putting him to L-1 in case someone hammered like Lora did. Basically I'm trying to figure out if she legitally wanted it answered or she just dropped the vote with some semi-distancing question and "pressure".

Why would I have unvoted if I didn't like the feel of his last post? His last post was horrid. I would never imagine a town member mindset to ignore the majority of their highest scum read. That is more in a scum mindset because they are locked on a target and are not allowing anything to change that read. It wasn't my questions that I wanted answered afterall.

I would imagine that by now they have changed a bit. So I was asking for a semi-updated list in some type of order.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.


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Post Post #564 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:45 pm

Post by Jal »

I think I see what you mean now. She didn't vote him for what you did exactly, she voted him for something similar to you, but in her vote reasoning she required that he answer to her as a basis for whether her vote would stay or not..
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Post Post #565 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:50 pm

Post by Jal »

Less sure of LS now, that is pretty much it.

I'm lazy mala and my town reads aren't so much in order.

Adam, LS, and City are in a bigger scum read than Mehdi, Penguin. Maybe switch Mehdi into the bigger group with Adam perhaps, but I need to sleep on that. I don't think my headache and Mehdi posts go together very much. More pepple need to post.
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Post Post #566 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:48 pm

Post by Loranthaceae »

A short recap = guille wasn't exactly a lurker but he had only 12 posts so it's likely he was trying to avoid talking to the MR with the excuse of not being available.

despite having few posts he mentioned the penguin issue a lot - as I predicted it's something that scum can easily get in to.
Mala.. the fact that you let go of this instrument so quickly makes me think you're scum, the other scum who balanced out guille in that you were on the other side of the issue, pushing penguin instead of being protective.


he was on my wagon (started it) and went with it until he met his doom.

Day1 makes me, ICE and maybe maston obvtown

@CityElectric if you think posting once every 48 hours is a fine way to play this game you are mistaking, you are extremely anti-town. It's like you're just a picture on the wall with a slogan: 'I don't give a shit about the game, I'm just here to vote for Loran, lurking is cool'.
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Post Post #567 (ISO) » Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:34 pm

Post by Malakittens »

Yep. I'm totally letting it go. Jal and I are arguing over a let-go Penguin read.
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Post Post #568 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:51 am

Post by penguin_alien »

Malakittens, around the time of #469, guille2015 was indicating that he was in the process of catching up. If that was the case, he would have come across my question and addressed it. Later on, when it was clear that he wasn't addressing it, I quoted it and added a vote to emphasize that I really did think this was scummy (along with the point about his reading Loranthaceae's posts) as I generally find people are more willing to answer questions when there's a vote on the line. Yes, it was L-1, but I wasn't remotely expecting Loranthaceae to waltz in and hammer like that. You say I should have avoided putting him at L-1 in case of a hammer, but in a game where there's a PR to claim, one really doesn't expect a hammer to come like that. Maybe if scum wants to cut off conversation, but usually that's a sign that the lynch in question will flip scum anyways, which reduces the utility of receiving an answer in any event.

As to why I didn't vote guille2015 when my initial question came up in #436, at that point I still had a scum read on Loranthaceae. The only reason I changed my mind there and moved to guille2015 as my top suspect was because of Mehdi2277's argument that Loranthaceae was unlikely to be scum on a team with day talk and still posting in such an erratic fashion. That that argument persuaded me off a wagon I now think was likely town onto a scum wagon moves Mehdi2277 from leaning scum to town in my books.

I find it very interesting that Malakittens managed to go from a tentative town read on me for overlapping on a reason to find guille2015 scummy (and seeming to have no objection to my L-1 vote) to opening the day finding me scummy, if I'm interpreting her posting correctly. Then she confuses my vote with Loranthaceae's hammer, when she specifically commented on the hammer at the end of the day, like she's reaching for reasons to find me scummy. I'm not saying that people don't become genuinely mixed up over the night phase, but I don't think I've ever quick-hammered in a game with Malakittens, even in places where I should (!) so why she'd have me in memory as the quickhammer, I don't know.

I'm also not quite sure about her NK speculation. My understanding through three town-Malakittens games is that she prides herself on NK analysis. I do see that she's speculated a bit that CityElectric might have guided the NK to T-Bone because he didn't like her lurking, but if that's what she really thinks, I'd expect her to spend more time pushing the read, even if she doesn't emphasize where it comes from; instead she's letting herself be diverted into weakly supported arguments.

That being said, Malakittens is correct that CityElectric hasn't been particularly pro-town in her postings, plus #526 is daring us to lynch her. Which is scummy as all get-out. I'm willing to see what CityElectric comes up with under increased pressure, so VOTE: CityElectric
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Post Post #569 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:03 am

Post by mastin2 »

Probably not going to be posting much here in the next day or two (or three) thanks to being preoccupied elsewhere. Will hopefully still get a chance to use my QT, though.
In post 568, penguin_alien wrote:I find it very interesting that Malakittens managed to go from a tentative town read on me for overlapping on a reason to find guille2015 scummy (and seeming to have no objection to my L-1 vote) to opening the day finding me scummy, if I'm interpreting her posting correctly.
Define "interesting".

You go to great lengths to describe why it's interesting, but I want you to describe what, to you, that word means.
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Post Post #570 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:44 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

In post 551, Malakittens wrote:I'm starting to think you are just being arrogant now. You tried building a meta-case against me earlier in Day 1, but was proven wrong by looking at ISO's.


Arrogant - probably.
Also, I think you were the one who brought up meta first.

I'll take your word about guille, if only because this is the only game I've played with him.
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Post Post #571 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:49 am

Post by Malakittens »

Nope. #237 was the first post by you that brought up meta.
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Post Post #572 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:18 am

Post by Lastsurvivor »

Oh well yeah.

I mean you brought it up first today in to explain why you wouldn't say you had a gut-town read on Guille. I wasn't trying to build a meta case on you today, just refuting the one you brought up. I made one yesterday though, ya.
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Post Post #573 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:30 am

Post by Malakittens »

Again. Ice and Mastin are not obstown. You have a slight aura of it, Lora. I still don't want to clear Ice or Mastin as to that read.
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Post Post #574 (ISO) » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:37 pm

Post by Loranthaceae »

@Ls I don't mind you focusing on Mala so much but could you throw in a little diversity? You gave me the impression of defending lurking and you didn't waste the opportunity to comment on penguin's confirmation exactly like some other dude I know who happens to not be among us anymore.

Also I think bussing is overrated and that people who fail to vote for scum are scummiest. Shoutout to Junpei and Adam

@Jal, Why do you feel the need to tell us that you're lazy, twice. Town needs to stay alert and diligent to win this game =/= lazy.
And can you explain to me where you draw this confidence from to say that ICE wasn't angry about me quickhammering
In post 552, Jal wrote:He didn't rage either. I don't call that rage.


Do you know something we don't? From my POV he could be scum bringing guille into the spotlight just to make up some fake towntells for him later and vote for Mala or someone else dodging inconsistency and setting up a nice position for himself should guille get lynched later, I've seen slingshots like that and I'd love to try one. In this scenario the fact that I quickhammered must've made him angry because the best case scenario for him (postponing a guille lynch) evaporated into thin air.
But now you come in and you're saying this is not raging:

In post 508, GreyICE wrote:this is
full motherfucking retard


because we have a single, mod-confirmed town role that is easily confirmable in counterclaim cases without that role needing to out itself

doesnt matter because id bet money on guille scum

but like loran is antitown as fuck

only scummy if guille is scum fwiw

Question for ICE: what was the italic part all about?

and coming down..
In post 509, GreyICE wrote:actually
fuck it
it's really not scummy. loran is prolly town

but i think we have to treat l-2 as l-1 with loran around because we're playing with someone who can't be trusted


Note that his first 4 posts were inside a 1-2 minutes timeframe; then a 7 minute break (where he probably realized what I've done) but writing the next post could've taken about 2-3 minutes; and 2 quick posts after that.
In post 552, Jal wrote:It took him such a long time to even notice.

so not really a long time but even if it would've been a long time.. so what? how does this effect anything?

TLDR: Jal, where do you get these speculations from and what's the intent behind them? Why try to assure Mala that he wasn't raging?

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