Mini 1404 - Monopoly Mafia - Game Over

[Cheery Dog]

so basically you listened to the person who was suspected as scum and was a potential vig target?

He's still one of my town reads. Just because other people may want him dead doesn't mean I don't trust my own reads.

[SafetyDance]

@Mod: So why say something different in your pm?

Half the time I don't know if you're a player or the moderator...

Safety 1950 was in relation to 1787. The point was how he gained knowledge on his role from the not tracking not what the role is.

His break of plan can be split amongst the neighborhood since they've said they agreed on it together.

So why not say so (that it was in relation to 1787).

Yes, he does need to say what he meant there and what card(s?) he thought LM had.

[Cheery Dog]

How does knowing he didn't target anyone help you in figuring out what his second card is?

It means it's a VT card most probably.

It doesn't mean anything about the colour, but it indicates it's unlikely to be a match of a PR someone else had claimed to have on a colour.

Do the remaining orange/yellow cards have any powers?

[SafetyDance]

[Xisiqomelir]

@SafetyDance

:

That's terrible PoE. For someone that's meant to have a role that deals with absolutes, not including Jake/guille in any scum scenario is terrible.

There is literally zero chance Jake is scum. I am never investigating him this game. Guille is only scum if the rest of his neighbourhood is town.

Your working out here is fantastic, got me convinced. (this is sarcasm)

I've already posted about Guille. Jake's reaction to Uberninja D1 and Jal D2 is consummate town-Jake, from my personal experience of town-Jake.

What? He didn't have a power role day 2, how could he go off the plan? In fact he followed it judging by the lack of extra kill.

Exempting himself as a tracker or vig target was suspicious.

So suspicious, you never brought it up. You didn't claim yesterday so no one was any of the wiser, so why not, when there was ample opportunity to post, did you not mention it? Again, why try to beat down the rest of us for not doing so yesterday?

I wasn't about to make myself a target for scum-TBG.

How are you being "beaten down"?

So you have a narrow-minded view of what scum-hunting is and it has to fit your criteria of "voting".

Of course it does. Town wins by lynching.

Finding discrepancies

is

trying to identify scum.

Helping piece together who has what

is

helping town.

Waiting for you to post before voting

is

waiting to hear what everyone has to say to help form a better opinion on who is scum.

So...have you identified any scum? Who are they? If you haven't, what else do you need?

@Jake

:

@ Xis - why investigate Baby night 1 instead of SC who you were more suspicious of?

Investigating Jal makes no sense either when mehndi or guile were better options.

I said earlier I saw a lurker/xis connection and this claim really sucks. You definitely made it seem like you caught someone when you started the day. Also your comment about nobody slipping makes no sense because you didn't have a guilty.

The only thing keeping me from voting you right now is because if you were scum, why make this claim like that?

My head hurts now

Mafia Theory, but I think it's better to clarify a more ambiguous read than go for a stronger one. I have adopted this consistently for the four investigations I've done on-site.

Discworld Mafia N1, I had Shamrock as top scumspect, but investigated Thor (who was NKed). I then voted Shamrock off the bat D2 and got him lynched (he was town)

Discworld Mafia N2, I had Cherry Nog as top scumspect, but investigated Calcifer and got a guilty.

N1 here, I suspected SC/Cheery most, but investigated Baby because of awkwardness over her "notebook". I voted SC to start the day, but then Monkey's defences unravelled.

Last night, in the end I decided that TBG leaving himself out of his own plan was scummier than Jal wanting to vig her co-wagoners, so I investigated Jal, planning on pushing TBG today.

The NK and investigation make this fairly straightforward for me. We still have the unresolved doc/did-not-doc 1v1 from Mehdi and SafetyDance, and then one of the neighbours is likely scum.

Jake, can you explain your stance on Guille-scum? How do you feel about NumberQ's ISO?

Also, can you elaborate on this point:

Also another thing, in guile's catchup post he pointed to a post that SC made on page 15 and follows it up by saying SC was trying to direct people to vote lurker. But if you actually read pages 15-22 (where SC unvotes lurker) SC doesn't do anything of the sort. I'd almost call it an outright lie.

All SC does is argue about the cards giving power, he never once directs anyone to pit their vote back on him.

@guille2015

:

Cop claim does not follow Alignment.

I cannot parse this sentence.

Results do not help.

I am okay with having a difference of opinion on this topic.

Xis:
Why do you say that Jake is town?

I think I have a good handle on Jake's town-tone. This is a typical example:

You should shoot who you think is scum or who's a detriment to town.

You definitely sound like a SK to me now.

Go ahead and shoot me, just be ok with ridicule post game for your inability to grow a pair.

Bolded is a sincere Jake opinion.

Why did you want to wait for everyone to chip in before you claimed?

I was hoping someone would try something scummy like pre-emptively discrediting me.

Guille is only scum if the rest of his neighbourhood is town.

Also, how do you reach this conclusion?

3/3 scum in neighbourhood is impossible, given that we've lynched Lurker
2/3 scum in neighbourhood would be very unbalanced, and I think it unlikely since we've definitely got one scum in {Safety,Mehdi}
1/3 scum in neighbourhood is the most typical setup on site
0/3 scum in neighbourhood is bastardy, but not something I'll rule out completely (I've seen it once before)

@Lord Mhork

:

Xiquelomeir, why did you decide to cop Jal after a SK flip on Monkey? Why didn't you make the immediate link that she was the obvious real vig and obvtown? That investigation makes no sense at all to me. :/

I have answered this question.

[Jake from State Farm]

Jake, can you explain your stance on Guille-scum? How do you feel about NumberQ's ISO?

couple posts about number that feel weird

I don't see anything inherently wrong with SC's post 257, where he votes Lurker because of Mhork's deconstruction of Lurker's case. Seriously. What the hell was bad about it? Maybe I'm blind but I'm just not seeing it.

it was painfully obvious SC just blindly sheeped mhork, to put a player at L-1. Sure lurker turned out to be scum, regardless of lurker's alignment it was a horrible vote and nothing indicates it was pro town

I still want to look at Mhork and Robert in more detail, and now Baby Spice since I'm seeing people against her, but I'll get to them some other time

The part about baby spice seems odd, it's like he is only interested in looking at people that other people find scummy the motivation behind that doesn't seem town imo

On the other hand, Jal's been pretty convincing with the Baby case, with Baby's statistics and whatnot. So yeah, Baby's my second scum read.

1. he never makes it known he did looked into baby spice's post like he said he would
2. he's blindly sheeping Jal making baby his 2nd bioggest scum read. he doesn't point out what parts of Jal's case he agrees with. and tbh I personally don't think Jal made that good of a case on spice. It seems like he is buddying Jal or trying to anyway.


As for Guile lots of things just rub me the wrong way.

1. saying that SC/myself have to be opposite alignments but when asked to explain why his reason makes no sense
2. the way he basically avoided doing anything useful all of day 2. He basically parked his vote on me for a bad reason and sat there. He didn't really try to convince others to vote me (basically the same thing I accused Monkey of doing, who turned out to be scum)

lso, can you elaborate on this point:

In post 1922, Jake from State Farm wrote:
Also another thing, in guile's catchup post he pointed to a post that SC made on page 15 and follows it up by saying SC was trying to direct people to vote lurker. But if you actually read pages 15-22 (where SC unvotes lurker) SC doesn't do anything of the sort. I'd almost call it an outright lie.

All SC does is argue about the cards giving power, he never once directs anyone to pit their vote back on him.

Guile's exact quote was

SC/Cheery: I started with a scummy read, then that turned town. Post 356 is questioning the claim,then proceeds to direct the votes to Lurker and I think that that in itself is enough to clear him. Cheery dog got his vote remove at the end of the day, Don't know what to think from that.

SC's 356 was this

My interpretation of the claim is that the watcher comes from one of the cards, which, as far as I know, everybody has. If it were not tied to the cards, I don't think he would have claimed "vanilla with a one-shot ability"; I think he would have dropped the "vanilla" qualifier.

The claim itself is not in question as far as I'm concerned

, but the way it's worded, I don't think it warrants an unvote.

He doesn't question the claim first of all (see bolded)
he doesn't really give a good reason why he didn't unvote other than the fact that the possession of the card doesn't indicate alignment, which is a fair point but imo when a person claims a PR day 1 you give them the benefit of the doubt.

secondly guile says that he proceeds to direct the votes to lurker. But this is actually a lie. He doesn't do that at all. That post by SC was made on page 15. I read every single post of SC's from page 15 to page 22 and no where does he direct people to vote lurker. All he does really is talk about the cards. Page 22 SC unvotes lurker. It's like guile just made it up, basically I feel that post about SC from guile is a complete lie.

[guille2015]

Also another thing, in guile's catchup post he pointed to a post that SC made on page 15 and follows it up by saying SC was trying to direct people to vote lurker. But if you actually read pages 15-22 (where SC unvotes lurker) SC doesn't do anything of the sort. I'd almost call it an outright lie.

It's true that he did not outright request everyone to vote for Lurker, but rather he remain with his vote on Lurker until he found Baby scummier... and he kept saying reasons for which he found Lurker scummy. My interpretation of that is that he wanted him lynched. Then the topic died down and he discussed things with others finding town reads.

I would think that if SC was busing Lurker, he would find someone scummier much more quickly. Though it appears that his motivation for this game was off at the time so that might be the reason.

Unless SC is the kind of player that would buss like this, he is town. I looked back at a game I had with him as scum (Judge, Jury and Executioner) and it was hard for me to notice his aggressiveness towards others. Since it was a game with everyone having three votes, he used that to place votes on some of his buddies. But it doesn't feel the same way. I don't really have time to Meta him though. Maybe later.

[guille2015]

And guille can you show yourself being really calm as town when faced with pressure similar to being told you'll be killed? I know you were calm as scum in marketplace mafia under similar, but town meta for how it's null and not scummy?

I'll show you the way, You do the legwork.

Latest game Newbie 1301: I played badly and was lynched day 2 for that.
3831 iniM: Objective was to revive town. So I accepted my fate that many said they did not want me revived early, which is effectively a lynch in that game. I got revived later, though.
Micro 28: It was a kingmaker and I was a Hero. I don't know if this counts because I was invulnerable to being lynched. But I point this out because in this game the King was someone I correctly thought was town, so I did not want him to execute me and die.

These are the games I recall. I don't remember any other completed games I was threatened to be killed as town.

[guille2015]

3/3 scum in neighbourhood is impossible, given that we've lynched Lurker
2/3 scum in neighbourhood would be very unbalanced, and I think it unlikely since we've definitely got one scum in {Safety,Mehdi}
1/3 scum in neighbourhood is the most typical setup on site
0/3 scum in neighbourhood is bastardy, but not something I'll rule out completely (I've seen it once before)

This assumes that the cards were distributed non-randomly according to setup design and balance. We have concluded that they were handed randomly, so this does not apply.

[Jake from State Farm]

Also another thing, in guile's catchup post he pointed to a post that SC made on page 15 and follows it up by saying SC was trying to direct people to vote lurker. But if you actually read pages 15-22 (where SC unvotes lurker) SC doesn't do anything of the sort. I'd almost call it an outright lie.

It's true that he did not outright request everyone to vote for Lurker, but rather he remain with his vote on Lurker until he found Baby scummier... and he kept saying reasons for which he found Lurker scummy. My interpretation of that is that he wanted him lynched. Then the topic died down and he discussed things with others finding town reads.

I would think that if SC was busing Lurker, he would find someone scummier much more quickly. Though it appears that his motivation for this game was off at the time so that might be the reason.

Unless SC is the kind of player that would buss like this, he is town. I looked back at a game I had with him as scum (Judge, Jury and Executioner) and it was hard for me to notice his aggressiveness towards others. Since it was a game with everyone having three votes, he used that to place votes on some of his buddies. But it doesn't feel the same way. I don't really have time to Meta him though. Maybe later.

where is the reason he gave? because I don't remember any real reason other than him sheeping mhork

[Lord Mhork]

But yeah that's the second tracker report where the person tracked is saying something is wrong. Ignoring the me/safety + cheery/mhork scum possibility by 1 vs 1 stuff this pretty much confirms there's a role that can mess up tracker reports (and me + mhork isn't possible either so me + cheery or safety + mhork are the only choices that let the 1 vs 1 work).

Just marking this. I don't like him discussing himself as a scum possibility.

What do you mean by actual result?

That I didn't get a no result response from the mod. I got a didn't see anything response which means that you didn't go anywhere.

Egasp I'm shocked.

Dude, I'm not gonna play the 'but you posted right when I mentioned your name' game. I posted there when I remembered about it, then didn't get another chance afterward. I apologized about that. You got a response because I felt like talking could be helpful, but at that point it was too late. If you want, tonight we can get together and a have a severe heart to heart between the three of us. >.<

I find it odd when people forget their powers, and it was possible that you were trying to ignore it during what you thought was the remainder of the night (because rules posts says they are 48 hours), and you either came back after finding out we were still in night, or you're possibily telling the truth, which given that you didn't visit anyone, I think is quite possible.
Let's just focus on catching the remaining scum out here in the thread I don't think heart to heart tonight will be necessary.

I'm sorry you find it odd. I forgot. Simple as that.

Also why do you say I was 'trying' to ignore it. If I had wanted to flat out ignore it, why would I have posted at all?

In the hopes of seeing if he'd try to fakeclaim something maybe, but that obviously didn't happen.

What made you think I would try and fakeclaim anything? What would I have tried to fakeclaim, from your perspective?

Bu..bu..bu.. Jal is obvtown!

: I thought so at the end of D1, but this was such a weird contradiction I thought I should check it out:

Okay, I am shooting from a list including all opposed with Mhork included no matter what.

Current Vote Count 2.05

MonkeyMan576 - 5 (TehBrawlGuy, Lord Mhork, Jal, Jake From State Farm, Xisiqomelir) (L-1)

Additionally, with both N1 kills having strong suspicions/votes of Jal, I thought it was worth clearing up before LyLo

You mean this? Great, except for the fact that all you did was confirm something that was already essentially confirmed. Jal was all but mod confirmed as a vig and yet you investigated her anyway? Why? I don't understand this whole 'contradiction of yours.

[Mehdi2277]

It's about the worst thing to fake claim unless xis is just the type to bet on I'll wifom the town with horrible power usage. So yeah I'm taking it as a town tell under that logic.

Mhork it's pretty clear the point of me calling myself scum is to try to show the reason not working well since I was expecting cheery to be redirected then which would make the 1 strange result from n1 have a fairly understandable explanation and kill one annoying fos reason on me.

[Mehdi2277]

Admittingly I'm less confident on cheery being town but I'm still at a point where I'd like guille most as a lynch (and if cheery is scum why protect basically his whole neighborhood unless one of them is scum too?).

[Mehdi2277]

I realize that reasoning works for guille to but specifically mhork isn't really lynchable because of the tracker report (if he's scum then there's at least 1 scum not him with him and it'd also imply he's the most town looking scum) and then continued guille is town push vs guille just having both as town. That and honestly my town read on him from day 2 isn't really dying easily.

[SafetyDance]

V/LA next 2 days

[Jake from State Farm]

@ xis - after lurker claimed scum why did you not switch your vote to lurker and also why did you still entertain the idea of lynching Jal?

[Cheery Dog]

Dude, I'm not gonna play the 'but you posted right when I mentioned your name' game. I posted there when I remembered about it, then didn't get another chance afterward. I apologized about that. You got a response because I felt like talking could be helpful, but at that point it was too late. If you want, tonight we can get together and a have a severe heart to heart between the three of us. >.<

I find it odd when people forget their powers, and it was possible that you were trying to ignore it during what you thought was the remainder of the night (because rules posts says they are 48 hours), and you either came back after finding out we were still in night, or you're possibily telling the truth, which given that you didn't visit anyone, I think is quite possible.
Let's just focus on catching the remaining scum out here in the thread I don't think heart to heart tonight will be necessary.

I'm sorry you find it odd. I forgot. Simple as that.

Also why do you say I was 'trying' to ignore it. If I had wanted to flat out ignore it, why would I have posted at all?

In the hopes of seeing if he'd try to fakeclaim something maybe, but that obviously didn't happen.

What made you think I would try and fakeclaim anything? What would I have tried to fakeclaim, from your perspective?

I can't prove if you did forget or not, I assumed you hadn't forgotten and were just ignoring, then you felt it better a idea to actually respond since I had rebrought it up. If I read what you were doing wrong, then that's fine, but that's what I felt when I decided to track you.

You may have tried to fakeclaim as with so much power around already, any claims may have should you be scum progress furthur in the game.
Yes you probably wouldn't have fakeclaimed since I had outed that I tracked you, but with kills like Baby, scum may not actually be following information around, and you could have made a mistake. There's always the 1% success chance of a 99% fail likelyhood plan.

Anyway, it does probably mean that my day 1 read was right on you, you're definitely not scum with Mehdi after safety's track of mehdi anyway.

[Jake from State Farm]

@Mod: If I use a 1 shot power and I am roleblocked, will my card go away?

Mod - can you answer this please?

[Guy_Named_Riggs]

@Mod: If I use a 1 shot power and I am roleblocked, will my card go away?

Mod - can you answer this please?

~Yes~

[guille2015]

...
where is the reason he gave? because I don't remember any real reason other than him sheeping mhork

I checked his ISO, and yes, he doesn't explicitly say any reasons. But the does say this:

Right now why I think you're not making sense of my post is because you understand my refusal to unvote Lurker incorrectly. Let's set the record straight: My vote is a basic sheep of Lord Mhork's defense/counterattack (he's established it's a bit of both) of Lurker in #227, which basically accuses him of not reading the game. Why I didn't unvote Lurker is because cards can end up with absolutely anyone regardless of alignment as far as I know. I never said anything to the effect of disbelieving that cards give powers, which is why I questioned your understanding of my Lurker read in #478.

It is implicit that he finds Lurker scummy enough to have votes and that he is wondering why everyone is unvoting after lurker claims. He spends most of the time defending why he did not unvote.

[Jal]

Has everyone claimed they got cards over night/start of day yet? Safety I think you're keeping track.

[Xisiqomelir]

@Jake

:

@ xis - after lurker claimed scum why did you not switch your vote to lurker

Uberninja asked us not to:

Actually....

I would be

more

than happy if people just unvoted everyone, and didn't lynch anyone until after this weekend.

Wait! Hear me out, hear me out...

That will give me a chance to read the game, gauge interactions, and be useful as fuck (which I just haven't had time to be ... sorry mod and players! I've been working on a dark theme for mafiascum.net which you can see a preview of here ... I promise it's not because I don't care about the game!) so that we can get scum lynches and in general have an awesome rest of the game.

This is a 100% serious offer. 30 pages over 1 weekend = fucking CAKE.
Especially because the dark theme's almost done and it's time for PAYBACK up in this bitch.

Please confirm or deny that you are agreeable to my request by typing

Unvote; Vote: In Uber We Trust

in your next post.

Thank you.

I acquiesced, but I wanted him to get it over with.

and also why did you still entertain the idea of lynching Jal?

I don't know how you get that from this post Jake:

Ubes I would much rather lynch Lurker today, and will hop him after I see whether more people have received +/- votes lately.

If you're interested in pushing Jal you'll need something more substantial.

@Mod

: Votecount please.

That's "I'm not sold on your Jal case", not "I could go for Jal too". After Uber died and flipped town, it became more credible, along with Baby's Jal-push.

@Lord Mhork

:

You mean this? Great, except for the fact that all you did was confirm something that was already essentially confirmed.

I dispute this.

Jal was all but mod confirmed as a vig and yet you investigated her anyway?

Jal still has yet to vig anyone, and certainly hadn't by the end of D2 when I made my decision. How was he "mod-confirmed"?

Why? I don't understand this whole 'contradiction of yours.

Here it is again:

Okay, I am shooting from a list including all opposed with Mhork included no matter what.

This makes zero sense for town to state if everyone on the list is with you on the same wagon, unless one thinks that they're all possibly bussing scum.

@Guille

:

3/3 scum in neighbourhood is impossible, given that we've lynched Lurker
2/3 scum in neighbourhood would be very unbalanced, and I think it unlikely since we've definitely got one scum in {Safety,Mehdi}
1/3 scum in neighbourhood is the most typical setup on site
0/3 scum in neighbourhood is bastardy, but not something I'll rule out completely (I've seen it once before)

This assumes that the cards were distributed non-randomly according to setup design and balance.

We have concluded that they were handed randomly

, so this does not apply.

Who is this "we"? Please do not presume to speak for all of town. It's reasonable enough to assume that the cards were divided relatively

evenly

, but there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest that they were handed out

randomly

. The fact that the SK started with killing power, along with many other players beginning the game with PRs, suggests to me that it's more likely that the cards were allocated by mod design. That being the case, your neighbourhood probably contains exactly one scum.

[Jake from State Farm]

1. Why the hell would you listen to anyone else when we had caught scum
2. That post does imply you want him to atleast make a better case on Jal. That implies you aren't sold on a lurker lynch cause why else would you encourage him?

[Jake from State Farm]

@ xis

The mod even said that the cards were handed out randomly after alignment. This has been discussed already by number iirc

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4539221

[Jake from State Farm]

^ that's to the link from the theme que.

Here's a link to where number mentioned it - http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p4552352