Kingmaker II-Game Over

[CrashTextDummie]

I really don't remember what that logical fallacy was. Other than general stances/attitudes, I don't remember much of anything that happened during the crash. What did Twomz do?

I asked him if he had any real reason to vote me other than to satisfy Fritz, to which he responded by asking me if I had given him any reason NOT to vote me. Burden of Proof.

[MrBuddyLee]

Seriously. Explain the entirety of this post, rather than going "oshit, Glork has come to a decision. He's 'rushing' things." I fucking dare you. Because I don't think you can legitimately back up the kind of assertion you're making.

"This post":

Oh, and for the record, I now know who I will be executing today. I won't make an execution yet, and I will not announce my victim right now. I think the discussion right now is going very well (although I really wish that more people would participate actively in the discussion). I'd like to see this continue.

Discussion is oriented towards FINDING SCUM. Once you've said YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE EXECUTING, do you really expect

most people

to continue discussing things the same way they were? You already have a lurker problem, and once you seal your little black envelope of doom with someone's name inside it, it's probably only going to get worse. You're naive if you think your rushed pronouncement was good for town and has no chance of having a negative impact. If scum wants to be safe right now, they can pick someone off that list and agree with you that that person is scummy.

Glork, you've gotten two people to agree with your reasoning behind putting me on your LOE. Zindaras, who gave no reasoning, and Nightson who misread a post of mine and reached an erroneous conclusion the day after he explicitly stated he thought I was pro-town. The lack of support for your points from this large town is extraordinarily notable. Once again, I request that you find a significant number, say five players willing to support my execution. I don't take being on your list lightly, as you can tell, and I plan to fight it.

I'm going to pipe down for a bit. There's a lot for other people to comment on, and no one likes reading endless walls of text from the same players.

[Glork]

Actually, MBL, there's one more thing that bothers me. For your ranting about how I haven't handled lurkers well enough, you've done nothing yourself to promote activity in this game. You have not asked for a single modprod or replacement request. You have not asked a direct question to a lurker. Only just now, as you tried once again to rip into me, did you even make a focused attack/case against a specific lurker. Explain the hypocrisy behind your allegations that

I'm

not doing enough, when I've asked for prods on a semi-regular basis, and asked specific questions of Mert and Der Hammer to get them to read and post. Explain how you can justify your attack when you yourself have made

EXACTLY ZERO

requests for modprods or replacements.

This paragraph is propagandist bullshit.

1) I've commented on lurkers in 477, 745, 749. I don't lynch in this game. The king does. The king therefore is the only one with the muscle behind threats against lurkers. Nightson's even said you shouldn't give a shit what your town thinks. You're the lyncher. You make the threats.

Is it propaganda? Is it really? Let's look at the insinuations that I made:
You haven't made any prod/replacment requests.
You haven't asked direct questions to lurkers.
You haven't made a focused attack/case against a lurker.

To accuse me of propaganda, you must refute my assertions with hard evidence. 477 is the only example you have provided that actually shows you giving reasons against lurkers. Go back and find, prior to our lurker discussion, any direct questions you had to lurkers during D2 or towards the end of D1 (when the identities of some of the lurkers were apparent). Go ahead. Prove me wrong. In 745 and 749, you made side-comments about what lurkerscum might be doing. You even downplayed your knowledge, though, by saying in 749 that you didn't know if that was even the case. Neither of these posts contain the kind of request, question, or attack that I described.

2) You saying I've done nothing to promote activity in this game is an utter load of horseshit. I expect a few people will take you to task on this one. I've probably addressed more players directly than anyone else. I've probably promoted more theories and connections for people to comment on. What are you talking about?

Talking about theories and connections is not promoting activity in the sense that I mean. It is true that you have provided a lot to talk about, that you have inspired a lot of discussion. But you and I both know that whether it's through general attacks/theorizing or specific "homework assignments," that there is only one way to actually promote activity in lurkers. You must apply

direct pressure.

Voting for lurkers, making attacks on lurkers, asking for prods/replacements, and interrogating lurkers; that's the only way you can actually apply pressure to them. You must actively *DO* something to get them to post. I assert that you have not done this enough to accuse me of failing to do my job.

3) You're the king. It's not hypocritical for me to expect you to do a better job of prodding and asking for lurker replacements than me. That's absurd. I think you're trying to APPEAR like you give a shit about lurkers, but the fact that you made a LOE when you did speaks otherwise. By the way, those homework questions that you're so proud of didn't jump out at me as particularly insightful.

I am the king. That makes me responsible for the execution. But

every single player

has a responsibility to contribute and to help find scum. Part of that task is maximizing activity, since more discussion theoretically promotes scumfinding. You, MBL, along with every other player, share this responsibility. To sluff the activity/health of the game onto the king is ludicrous. If you look back on the early-game discussion in KM1, you'll see that many players ultimately wanted to keep the game as collective as possible. Make the king responsible for executing somebody. Otherwise, try to normalize the game as much as possible. It makes the most sense, it gives the best odds of the town finding scum, and it means that

each and every player shares a responsibility to promote activity within the game.

4) I don't have to ask for prods or replacements to be doing my job. And I certainly don't have to ask for them in order to find you slack for the way you're approaching the lurkers in relationship to this game.

You're missing the point. No, in general, you do not have to ask for prods or replacements to "do your job." But if you are going to criticize another player about handling lurkers, while *NOT* actively outing lurkers yourself, then you are in fact a hypocrite.

I will seriously do a jig if you turn up scum.

Huh? I don't even understand this comment.

*** Oh, also. Fritzler's been pushing CTD all game.

You haven't asked him for more.

This implies you're thoroughly satisfied with that contribution and are pretty sure CTD is scum.

Is that accurate, and if so, why isn't CTD on your list of execution? If he DOESN'T belong on your LOE, then why haven't you pressed Fritz for an opinion on the four people on your LOE? ***

The statement in red is factually wrong. I'm too lazy to go find the post right now, but I asked Fritz who he thought CTD's scumbuddies were (right here). I have in fact asked him to contribute more. I believe I made another post later on, asking Fritz again who

else

he thought was scum.
Even if the statement in red were true, that does not mean that the statement in blue holds. There is no logical basis for that statement. I have already stated that I believe Fritz is pro-town. That does *NOT* mean that I agree with the conclusions he has drawn. I respect those conclusions (especially when you take into account his play in Lights Out, which was strikingly similar and proved to be accurate as he attacked SpeedyKQ), but I to say that I am "pretty sure CTD is scum" is a flat-out lie. I am willing to put off pressure on Fritzler until a later time, since I believe that he is pro-town. Pressuring a pro-town player doesn't make much sense when there are scum to be found.

Hay kids, your homework will still be due on the last day of school. It won't count towards your final grades, cause I already calculated them, but turn it in anyway, K? Huggles.

Excuse me? Who is using propaganda? The homework is not only relevant today; it is releveant for the duration of this game. Knowing who I will execute today should have no impact on the purpose, meaningfulness, or seriousness of the homework assignments. I still expect them to respond to me to the best of their abilities. I still expect them to participate in discussion and to prepare for criticism and responses. A much closer analogy would be "Okay, school's been out for a few days and some of you have been sick. I'm giving you all an extension, but I still expect you to do the work. Get it in to me soon or I will start taking off for it being late." Nice try, though.

[LuckayLuck]

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

[Glork]

Discussion is oriented towards FINDING SCUM. Once you've said YOU KNOW WHO YOU'RE EXECUTING, do you really expect

most people

to continue discussing things the same way they were? You already have a lurker problem, and once you seal your little black envelope of doom with someone's name inside it, it's probably only going to get worse. You're naive if you think your rushed pronouncement was good for town and has no chance of having a negative impact. If scum wants to be safe right now, they can pick someone off that list and agree with you that that person is scummy.

Don't be so goddamned fatalist, MBL. Finding scum is a process, and people still discuss to find scum even if they think that they have settled on a lynch for that day.


Consider a game where a cop comes out and says "So-and-so is guilty. We should lynch them today." Any halfway decent town will hold the lynch and continue discussing, so as to possibly find additional scumbags on that same day. I did this multiple times in Covert Ops, where I was about an investigation ahead of pace almost the entire game. Did that stop us from discussing and debating? No. It did not. To claim that "the lynch has been determined" means "people will just stop trying to find scum" is yet another completely erroneous assetion.

[Yosarian2]

Explain to me how you think that is, in any way, a good idea. (And I don't want to see you say, "lynching a lurker will force the other lurkers to participate." Lurkers will be lurkers. And as people get more behind on the game, they will be less inclined to want to catch up. Experience has taught me that sad fact time and time again, so while the idealist in you might want to "set an example" by executing a lurker, I can just about guarantee that it won't be the case.)

No one said you should execute a random lurker, Glork, although it wouldn't be a bad thing to kill someone who is both scummy looking AND a lurker. However, we do need to have the king put pressure on lurkers, and there's no reason there shouldn't be some lurkers on your LOE.

"Lurkers will be lurkers" is simply not true; many or most lurkers will start posting if they feel like continuing to lurk will put them in danger.

[MrBuddyLee]

Sorry, I promised to stfu but there's more to respond to:

I'm not particularly worried about Glork executing me. He'd only do it as scum at this point (without town backing him), and it'd probably be his death sentence tomorrow. I'm more interested in understanding why his LOE sucks so bad and why he feels he's done enough work to be able to declare he's decided who to execute.

MBL, Yosarian, and Pooky currently make up my tentative Execution List.

I think it's apparent that MBL and Pooky are atop my list (

Yos has slipped just a tiny bit

, and Pablito is beginning to rise), and barring something fairly significant, I will be executing one of the four of them.

You should know my thoughts on Yos. He's on my execution list; I am definitely leaning towards him being scum right now.

Oh, and for the record, I now know who I will be executing today.

Glork, please explain how Yos made your LOE, then he slipped down your list, then you're leaning towards him being scum, and in the midst of all this fluidity, you achieved certainty over who you'd execute. All in a span of four days. What events caused this fluidity in your opinion of Yos? Please answer this question without going back to reread the thread--it's the past four days I'm concerned with here, and they should be fresh enough in your head to recite your thought process from memory.

[MrBuddyLee]

Don't be so goddamned fatalist, MBL. Finding scum is a process, and people still discuss to find scum even if they think that they have settled on a lynch for that day.

Yeah, maybe five of us. The rest will be happy that you've made your decision and lay back and eat cake.

[Glork]

The answer, is simple, MBL. I have, for the first time in a while, had a lot of spare time in the past few days. I have read over this thread in incredible detail and in different manners several times now. I have referenced some other games, gathered some meta info, done a little research. I have come to the conclusion that I have in fact found a scumbag. I'm basically saying "I'm making an execution and making almost solely my responsibility." You need not worry about my actions or my intentions.

[MrBuddyLee]

I have already stated that I believe Fritz is pro-town. That does *NOT* mean that I agree with the conclusions he has drawn.

Fritz's actions this game:

1) CTD is scum, lynch him NOW PJ!
2) CTD is scum, lynch him NOW, Glork!
3) Pooky is a good guy.
4) PJ is scum and omitted analysis of his scumbuddy. (maybe a joke by Fritz, dunno)

You disagree with every post of substance Fritz has made.

*He finds CTD above and beyond scummy, you don't have CTD on your execution list.
* He finds Pooky gg, you have Pooky atop your LOE.
* He commented that PJ was scum, you defend PJ actively as pro-town.

So please tell me what evidence you have that Fritz is gg. You disagree with EVERY point I make pretty much, and I am bg. How are you finding Fritz to be gg?

Please give us specifics on what's changed your opinion of Yos back and forth in the past four days.

[Yosarian2]

For the rest, I find MoS's way of playing not in any way to hurt the town. I have quite a few entries in which MoS stated opinions, so your attack on him is based only on "he won't vote", while votes aren't even that relevant. You seem to find deliberately not casting votes as scummier than deliberately not posting.

Hardly; if someone stood up and said "I'm going to basically just lurk all game and never contribute anything useful, and only post just often enough so as to not get replaced", I would certanly vote for them, because that's anti-town behavior, and the town should never put up with anti-town behavior.

Now, later in the day he did start participating in a useful way dispite the bizzare self-imposed limitation he put on himself, at which point I backed off on attacking him, but I certanly don't think I was wrong to attack him for that early on.

I don't like how you post conflictingly here. You state Phoebus, pablito and bird as both scummy and townish. I don't like the general tone of your post.

(shrug) The game was dragging, people were not posting, and there was a deadline coming up. I didn't feel like I had much to say either, but we needed to get conversation going, so I just re-read all of the posts of the people on the execution list and wrote down my thoughts as they came to me. I was trying to stir discussion on those three people, becuase it seemed clear that the king was going to execute on of them, and it apparently failed as most people still didn't comment on them. This game has been pretty frustrating for me pretty much all the way through, and all game I've felt like I've been talking into an echo chamber where everyone ignores me and nothing I say or do seems to matter.

You ignore everyone but those on the scum list, as if you're happy with whatever happens. You think inside the box. That's not something I'm used to from you.

Again, based on PJ's earlier thoughts, it seemed clear that he WAS going to execute someone on that list, and there was nothing I could do about that. Anyway, if someone picks three people they think are suspicious, the odds are very good that at least one of them is scum, so there's certanly something to be gained by wieghing in on which one looked most suspicious to me.

Now, if I had looked at PJ's list and thought that all three of the people looked townie to me, I would have said so. I did not.

I think you should always try to do your own job, instead of asking others to do it for you.

I think that in this kind of game we need to have at least some support from the king in order to put pressure on people. No one really feels pressured unless they really think they're at risk.

Now, it dosn't have to be active support; if the King just said something like "Anyone with 8 votes will be automatically added to the LOE", then votes would be a useful form of pressure. But without at least the passive support of the King, it's very hard to pressure people.

I don't.

Ok. What has Phoebus done that makes you think he's pro-town? Use specifics, please.

he attacked Yos Day 2, an attack against Yos defended himself very awkwardly

I "defended myself against very awkwardly"? How so? What in my defense did you disagree with?

[/quote]

I think your defense against the attacks on you and your attacks on Glork aren't very strong.[/quote]



I was asking for specifics here. What about my defense do you disagree with?

[Yosarian2]

Yos has been primarily defensive, and suspects Twomz and Phoebus, two people who haven't said much. For bad votes with no stated reasons on bad wagons. He finds PJ pablito bird cbox townish. He's gone from finding Glork explicitly pro-town to finding him suspect over the past three weeks.

That's another reason that I don't like to declare that I think certain people are pro-town; because then it makes it harder for me to later attack that person if I change my mind.

[Yosarian2]

I also have to say that I agree with MBL's comment; Glork's decleration that he's "already decided who he's going to execute" is hardly likely to stir dicussion. There's no more reason for anyone else to attack, or defend, or share thoughts at that point, unless perhaps they thought they might be executed or nightkilled and wanted to get their thoughts down on paper before that happened (which is basically what I'm doing now). Otherwise, though, it's pretty much just giving permission for the lurkers to keep lurking, secure in the knowlege that they're not going to get killed today for lurking and that if they get attacked for lurking later then they can just post then, and it completly takes away the motivation for people to scumhunt today, when today's already been decided and tommorow they'll have more information. It means that the scum no longer have any reason to try to manipulate you, and that good guys no longer have any reason to stick out their neck trying to defend someone they think is a good guy (after all, why take the risk of doing that if you've already made up your mind?) or to attack someone.

[spectrumvoid]

I missed some interesting discussion.

Skimming through, I caught pab's comment about my change in king. For the record, I believe that the king is slightly scummy. For many reasons, e.g.: the one MBL and Yos said about he's already decided etcetcetc. In response to Glork's earlier question, I also think picking out specific people is scummy.

I don't think we should discuss this today, since he won't be executed today. Mainly because I predict the discussion going around in circles, and I think it's more productive to discuss someone who may be executed. It is something I will bring out tomorrow if I'm alive after night.

I've done my HW, just let me go dig up my word doc.

[spectrumvoid]

Oh I missed this. Zindaras: i think you missed out on a couple of posts when you say I didn't give opinions. Before you replaced in, I've discussed Phoebus when he was under fire, the people on the LOE, the ex-king, bird, the current king.

Here's my read from day 2 onwards to page 25, more to come later. I've grouped discussions by issues instead of timelines.

Glork doesn't want to be king. He votes Pooky, MBL Pablito. And reads CTD.

Here's an interesting bird/pablito interaction.
pablito votes bird for lurking.
Bird posts:
Ameliaslay, glork, nightson, box, twomz, yos = protown. Mert, pablito, Phoebus = scum.
? = MOS, MBL, PJ, pooky, sv, sc.
Lurkers = CTD, Dead Rikimaru, Fritz, MOS, Pariah, UT, Vaughn
RC = scum.
pablito unvotes.

Looks to me like a day nut-kicking.

Responses to bird:
Twomz says he normally bandwagons day 1.
Pooky says he has nothing to respond to (in response to bird's accusation).
MBL makes the nut-kicking post.
SV sits on the fence re bird.
Nightson fos everyone on the bird wagon.
Yos votes Twomz for jumping on the wagon. Suspects people on wagon.
PJ + Phoebus: bird = scum.
Mos: bird = scum, but not lynch today.

General:
DR votes pablito.
Nightson votes Twomz

CTD: vote PJ for lynching RC, vote SC for missing post, vote Twomz for bird wagon + logical fallacy, vote UT for lurking. SC responds MUCH later in post 597, saying he thought PJ made a good decision, but did not understand the RC execution.

Pablito: vote UT, vote CTD for voting PJ.
MBL: votes all lurkers. discusses what PJ scumking would do.
SV: thinks RC wasn't the most scummy day 1, votes old lurkers.
Yos: Thinks PJ breaking the rules is townish.
Pab: defends PJ.
Mert votes Twomz, Pooky, defends MBL for his bird theory.
Glork: Bird = ? but maybe no, votes pooky + twomz scummy for jumping on wagon.

Bird: votes pooky for wanting to execute him and wagoning, MBL = town.

Interaction between Pooky and Glork.
Pooky brings up wagoning, makes a specific/general game slip, Glork is accused of ignoring context.
Glork summarises: Pooky says wagoning is useless in kingmaker
Glork gives an e.g., pooky says wagoning with king glork is useless. Pooky brings out context, Glory says it wasn't clear, pooky is sarcastic again, questions when, glork says kingmaker in general VS a specific game.

Post 592: Pooky says Glork assumed he was talking about another game, which is dumb, says it's only 1 e.g. etc.

Post 595: Glork says Pooky's doesn't show he's talking about a specific case, says metagaming is okay, brings up more examples.

There are valid reasons for both, but I note that Pooky played with little content and little logic till Glork pushed him for it. Also that pooky was very sarcastic, which might have led to the confusion. I'm not sure if that was deliberate. On the flip side, it's weird for Glork to keep assuming Pooky is talking about some other game. I think he harped on Pooky's so-called slip too much, as I see no reason for pooky to be talking about kingmaker games in general rather than specific. (I have mentioned this in post 598).

Interaction between Glork and MBL:
MBL says Glork has bad judgement. After some posts, Glork votes MBL for raising theory and not voting.

MBL says votes aren't important, and he has stated his stance clearly.
Glork: MBL didn't clarify stand on bird till pressured, says votes are important.
MBL: says kings are lazy if they rely on VC (agrees with MoS), wagoning is useless, glork is a bad king.
Glork: defends himself nicely, says he doesn't take VC to be the sole measure, saying he pays attention to the background, mentions possibility of false reasons for execution. Says if king loses either way whether he goes with wagon or against it.
MBL: says Glork thinks he's hiding his position on bird, says Glork is pretending to have poor judgement ie scummy.
Glork: thinks MBL was presenting a theory, but wanting to claim nonresponsibility.
MBL: Says all his other posts save his 1st one showed his opinions clearly.

I think MBL comes off looking scummy in this one. Note that MBL insults Glork. Also note that MBL made a bizzare accusation when he accused Glork of relying only on VCs, when nowhere has Glork said that. It's also true that MBL didn't clarify till Glork pushed for it, so MBL's accusation isn't true. And I believe votes are important in this game to make your stand clear, so Glork's accusation is true. (I've explained this in 598.)

Pooky + PJ + Glork:
PJ votes pooky for inconsistency + his attack on Twomz for saying nothing + defending PJ (because pooky knows PJ reciprocates) + being too sarcastic and defeatist. Twomz = town.

Pooky defends himself. Says it's consistent because he knows he's town, he wasn't attacking Twomz but shaming him, says he was being sarcastic, he loves PJ, says he made a post about winning it he's king.

Glork: says Pooky criticised PJ's early gameplay, yet defends him D1 in another game. Asks Pooky who else he suspects.

Pooky: says he didn't criticise his play.

On this exchange, I think Pooky was trying to deflect PJ's accusations and not responding to them properly. The shaming response is wrong because he was obviously attacking Twomz, his consistency response doesn't make sense because only he knows whether he's town or not, and it's true he was defeatist, bringing up 1 post does not show his overall attitude and tone. Pooky also did not adequetely respond to Glork (It's true he criticised PJ).


box:
says he doesn't like PJ for executing the person who thought he was the most scummy, but yet he's getting a lesser scumvibe, due to the amount of thought PJ put into it.
DR + UT lurk, but DR says more.
Fritz is unproductive.
Asks about metaming.
SV responds to the point of Friz, says that's Fritz's normal play, but he does post analysis occasionally.

About Yos:
G votes Y for being something scummy, asks about his change in opinion re phoebus.
Y asks why did G follow him if G thought Y was scummy. Explains why he didn't have a change of opinion: he didn't have a good read, but his lurking is suspicious. Y votes in 423 because he doesn't think people on the LOE are really suspicious, Phoebus is just the more suspicious one.
Glork: he did not follow Y. says Y was non-committal till deadline, and says someone with Y's experience should be suspicious of someone.
Y says he thought G was following him, says he thought he should say something due to deadline and stagnant activity, says he voted due to deadline, says Phoebus didn't respond to poking.

Pablito votes Yos, he doesn't like the defense, but says Yos might be misguided, and that pab's biased. (Pablito is off. He votes Yos, admits he doesn't have strong reasons for voting, and says he himself was biased... I don't see why he voted in the first place if he wasn't sure. Why did most people harp on Yos for around the same reason, and not on Pablito?)

[BREAK HERE to make the timelines less mixedup.]

Glork asks for prods on Amelia and Pariah and VC.
Unvotes pab, MBL, Twomz
FoS: MBL, Twomz.
bird asks for the reason for the unvotes.

Pab + Glork:
Pablito unvotes CTD because the attacked was well-intentioned but the reasons weren't there. He thinks CTD had no scummy motive, but his actions are suspicious.
Glork: asks which actions.
pablito: CTD's vote on PJ, because a pro-town voter would have done the same thing. And Fritz's accusing him. He adds that he unvoted, but unvotees will still be suspicious for him.

Twomz pops in and says non-content.
Bird unvotes Mert because poor logic was the reason, and his logic has improved. (I think Mert hasn't even posted... where did the improvement in logic come from?)

Back to Yos:
Yos asks what arguments of Glork's.
SV defends Yos, saying his stand was clear, says Glork misrepresented, votes Glork. (post 615).
Glork explains why Yos was wishy-washy, says Yos brings up 2 things that are scummy and yet finds Phoebus not suspicious.
Phoebus votes yos + pablito on gut. (This was after the pablito and Glork exchange.)
bird votes yos for Glork's reason, and for contradicting himself on birds's wagon. Yos explains that he wasn't contradicting.
Phoebus votes bird.
Yos explains that he wasn't sure if it was a scumtell, and that he couldn't get a read on Phoebus.
Yos votes Pablito and foses phoebus,
PJ votes bird, defends Yos, votes UT for lurking.

Summary as of page 25 (+ my HW assignment):
I think mbl, pablito, bird, phoebus, pooky, glork is scummy (in no particular order). They are currently scummy individuals, I haven't picked out pairs yet.
I think Twomz is slightly scummy for disappearing once the spotlight is off him + the wagon issue.
I think Yos isn't scummy, based on the reasons people have brought up against him.
I have no clear read on PJ other than the RC issue, no read on Mert, CTD, SC and whoever else is lurking.

This is of page 25.

[spectrumvoid]

whoever else includes: UT, Fritzler, box. I have 0 impression of anyone else and have 0 read.

[Zindaras]

God, is Glork's execution list terrible. "Hey, Ima choose between four good scumhunters, help me pick one while we ignore the lurkers and less experienced scum."

Glork's main list is MBL, Mert, Pooky and Yos. How are Mert and Pooky not lurkers? How are they hunting scum this game? Because I don't see them posting.

I just reread Pooky. He hasn't expressed many opinions on various players. He has made some valid points, like the "KM as executioner" point and pointing out the folly of Glork drawing attention to himself if he's town. Pooky's thin on suspicions in all games lately, I think it's a survival tactic due to past NK issues, and it's tough to tell whether he's scum or town now. I think the king should demand more info from Pooky. I'd also like Glork to reiterate his reasons for wanting to execute each person on his list. The list posts by player functionality is crippled and makes searching for this ourselves very difficult right now.

Then Pooky isn't playing to the best of his abilities and should be prodded into doing so. But, personally, I don't like it when people don't play to the best of their abilities. I find it scummy. People shouldn't be afraid of being NK'd. That only helps the lurkers win.

Yos has been primarily defensive, and suspects Twomz and Phoebus, two people who haven't said much. For bad votes with no stated reasons on bad wagons. He finds PJ pablito bird cbox townish. He's gone from finding Glork explicitly pro-town to finding him suspect over the past three weeks. Meh play by Yos overall.

Meh? I'd rather put it as bad.

Pablito, I've commented on recently. I think I may have found a slip in his post about PJ's execution list, but that requires that bird and pabs are scum together. I think he gave PJ cover or encouraged PJ to execute Rosso. Thing is, he's posted an absolute shitload of content, and if he's protown he's very helpful town to have around. If he's scum, he'll probably hang himself and his friends. Unless he's a master of achieving randomness of suspicion and comment, which I don't kn9ow cause I haven't played with him much.

I haven't seen him play like this before. Pablito was, by the way, the one to start the Rosso wagon (he was first to vote Rosso or otherwise bring him to attention).

Why are none of the useless people on the execution list? This is a Mountainous game ffs. My scumteam won Himalayan with the following strategy:

* lie low
* express balanced suspicions of safe targets
* keep lurkers and noncontributors around to endgame to cast suspicion on later

Pooky and Mert are both quite useless right now, and I think they could both be said as lying low, especially if you compare how they're playing to their normal play.

Please add CTD to the people who find my actions reasonable this game. Also,

vote: CTD

. I've read him in games where he was fabulously insightful. Where's the curiosity, CTD? Your defense of me, while accurate, is easily something scum could do safely, knowing that when I come up pro-town someday, having defended my arguments will be a +1 in your book. I'd really like to see a complete list of CTD suspicions beyond the lurker list of votes you posted three weeks ago.

Distancing noted.

Glork said:

I'm going to read over CTD's posts soon to see how I feel about him. Hey Fritz, who are CTD's scumbuddies?

But CTD's not on the list of execution, only on a Glork list of possible scum. Fascinating.

How else do you want to get stuff out of Fritz?

Twomz's posts today:

Lol, in all my games the major posts attacking or defending <____> are gone.... wtf?

still here

Glork voted Twomz but did not add him to his execution list despite Twomz posting absolutely nothing for three weeks. Curious.

I'll agree, though I don't find Twomz that suspicious myself.

Rikimaru: four posts, one about nothing, three about pablito. And Rikimaru hasn't made Glork's radar. Brilliant Kingship, your majesty.

vote: Rikimaru

He just needs to be replaced, in my eyes.

cardboardbox posted substance once today, three weeks ago, to attack three lurkers. Nothing since. No attention from the King on cbox for this slackness that I've noted.

He needs a prod, nothing more.

This is nonsense, Nightson. If you're a king, you decide who you want to execute, then you run it by your town. If they don't agree with you, you listen to them, seeing as how the majority of them are good guys.

I don't see any reason for Glork to state his execution target right now. We're in the middle of quite an activity boost and we're getting lots of information. I think Glork should run it by the town, but only later.

If you go ahead and execute your target anyway:

1) You'll probably nail a townie
2) You'll probably get annihilated tomorrow for going against the wishes of your town.

I am not making this observation selectively towards Glork. PJ also did not make a good case against Rosso, did NOT get the town's support for the lynch, and today PJ is viewed as suspect by many for it. It's a DUH thing: get your town's support for your lynch, and if you can't make them buy your case, maybe just maybe you're wrong about it.

Again, I'm getting the impression you're trying to scare Glork here.

Guys, we aren't going to get investigation results on cbox or StallingChamp or Rikimaru. It's going to come down to day eight and four of these slack bastards are going to be around along with three scum. And unless we put them on the hotseat

NOW

and get them talking, it'll be a coinflip as to which are scum and which are town. Good luck with that.

So you support an execution of these guys or what?

And Glork's sealed the deal by saying he knows he's going to execute, removing all incentive for scum to comment at this point.

Opinions do change, you know.

You're going to get crucified tomorrow if you lynch me today unless you drum up some more support, so I suggest you start working on that now.

I don't like how you're trying to scare Glork out of executing you here. I don't think you should be executed today (I find Yos even scummier), but I don't like this.

2) I'm not trying to scare Glork out of executing me. Read more carefully. I'm trying to get Glork to drum up town support for his case against me. If he can't, that says something. Anyone who thinks I'm trying to intimidate Glork out of executing me is wrong. I'm asking him to lay out his case to see if it holds water, because that's how the game is played. Nightson just voted me for the same reason you don't like my comment here: you both misread it.

More than once I've caught scum but noone was willing to believe me. If Glork really thinks he has a rock-solid case against you, I don't see why you shouldn't be on his LoE. You're acting like Glork's already executed you.

I don't like how he's(MBL's) playing. At all. He attacked pablito, timmy, SC, cbox and Glork early on, then said pablito, Phoebus and MoS were being awkward, then made a list of execution containing Rosso, Twomz and CTD. Day 2 he voted Fritz and timmy.

Zind, you don't explain what's wrong about any of this

at all

. "No reasoning".

You go from pablito/timmy/sc/cbox/Glork to pablito/Phoebus/MoS to Rosso/Twomz/CTD. That's quite a changing list. I find that suspicious, since, to me, it seems a bit like you're just trying to find a good execution target and you disregard the rest.

He's posted strange stuff all game. He stated pablito was suspicious for changing a vote to a FoS. He tried to link Mert to Glork. He brought up the nutty nuts-theory. He tried to link PJ, pablito and Glork. He stated that PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died, not Thok.

Again, you don't explain why ANY of this is strange. It's not self-evident, trust me.

Why

do you find the nut-kicking theory strange, for example? Why do you find any of the above listed things strange? Many people have found many of those observations of mine quite reasonable, so make your case.

I find it odd that you attacked pablito for changing a vote to a FoS. There really is quite a small difference, but I don't see why only scum would see that difference.

Linking Mert to Glork was rather ridiculous, in my eyes, when Glork was asking Mert for clarification.

The nuts-theory...I have played in quite a few Mafias, and I've never seen it happen.

Linking PJ, pablito and Glork. Again, pablito was on PJ's and Glork's execution list.

I don't see the reasoning why PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died over Thok, so I think you're trying to cast suspicion on good, active players that way.

[Zindaras]

Keeping different cases to different posts:

The only person I voted because of lurking was ubertimmy. I did it because I hoped to get him to talk, but such endeavors have been proven to be fruitless without the kings support.

Endeavour

s

? You posted the votes. You never followed up on them. You never really tried to get the king to prod them (in fact, you didn't even ask for a prod when you voted him). You were content with just lying low.

I voted Twomz and StallingChamp because they have both posted scummy stuff, most of which was unfortunately lost in the crash. Since then, they have both fallen off the face of the earth, which makes me think that my votes are in the right place. I am particularly confused by Glorks lack of interest in Twomz: He (Glork) was the first to point out a

blatant

logical fallacy that Twomz flung in my face, but either doesn't remember or doesn't care about it anymore, now that it has been wiped from the record books.

You vote them for one scummy move, but you don't point out why else we should vote them. You don't make a case, you just point out scummy posts, apparently hoping other people jump on it.

I had very little trouble with PJ during most of D1, hence why I said I'm getting townievibes from him. But the way the execution went down still leaves me hugely dissatisfied. I'm not even holding against him that he offed a townie, as the odds were very much against a townie-king. It's the way he brought Rosso to the execution block at the very last minute without giving him a chance to defend himself

at all

that rubs me the wrong way. Is it possible that PJ was so short on time that he couldn't do better even if he wanted to and he thought that he was doing the right thing? Of course. Would this be an optimal excuse for a scum king to kill an innocent? Very much so.

Rosso was under suspicion for quite a while. He posted nothing in his defense. He didn't respond to pablito's allegation. He didn't respond to anything after his first few posts, which were very very odd.

The king is the only person in this game that can be judged by his actions, as opposed to his words. I personally felt like PJ's reign was ultimately more in line with that of a scum king, and I voted him for that. His defence (now lost in the crash), which basically amounted to "I didn't have time, think of that whatever you want" (feel free to correct me if you feel misrepresented, PJ) wasn't exactly inspiring either.

So you ignore PJ's posting throughout the entire day and condemn him for his execution?

I'll note, by the way, that you nicely avoided weighing in on Rosso.

If you think I am "quite scummy" because some of my votes "struck you as very scummy", I want to know which of these 4 votes you are objecting against and why.

PJ and SC. Your vote on PJ is damning him for his one move and you leave everything else he's posted out. SC because you damn him, again, for his one post in which he said PJ made a good execution.

Ubertimmy's just reeks of hypocriticism, and ignores all the other lurkers. Twomz's is one I cannot comment on, for I don't know what he posted.

What disturbs me most of all is that you don't make cases. You just post random scummy tidbits and hope others do the work for you. I see that as scum trying to avoid the spotlight and get town lynched.

I am the king. That makes me responsible for the execution. But every single player has a responsibility to contribute and to help find scum. Part of that task is maximizing activity, since more discussion theoretically promotes scumfinding. You, MBL, along with every other player, share this responsibility. To sluff the activity/health of the game onto the king is ludicrous. If you look back on the early-game discussion in KM1, you'll see that many players ultimately wanted to keep the game as collective as possible. Make the king responsible for executing somebody. Otherwise, try to normalize the game as much as possible. It makes the most sense, it gives the best odds of the town finding scum, and it means that each and every player shares a responsibility to promote activity within the game.

QFT. This is something I am missing very much in most of the players on my scumlist, which is, in part, why I'm attacking them.

MBL, Glork is townie.
Glork, MBL is townie.

Glork, as much as I can see MBL grinding away at you, don't execute him.

Your generalization of the argument and failure to respond to any specific part of it or to state any reasoning at all is noted.

Responses to Yos and spectrumvoid will come later, when I have more time.

[Yosarian2]

The real problem is that we got almost no information day 1, because the king executed someone almost no one had commented on, and most people in the game haven't commented on most people in the execution list it looks like we're heading that way again (although a few now have; nice summery SV).

This is what needs to happen.

Cardboardbox probably needs to be replaced, he's vanished from the game I'm modding as well.

Glork needs to recend his statemtent that he's "already decided", and go back to keeping an open mind, at least long enough for everyone to answer the following question. And it's also help if you lean on anyone who dosn't answer the questions below.

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

We need everyone to comment on the person who gets executed and the LOE in general before any execution happens, otherwise we're never going to get any information.

[MrBuddyLee]

Glork, do you have any assignments for me while I reread the thread?

Hey Zindaras, I'm curious, are you pitching or catching for Glork's team in tonight's doubleheader? Good god, man, I didn't think anyone could possibly kiss up more than pablito did, but you've done it. Congratulations. I counted thirty-seven distinct suckups to Glork by you, and you've only been in the game four days. And I nearly split a spleen laughing when I read this:

spectrumvoid: I'm getting the feeling she's trying to stay on the Kings' good side (she's been friendly towards both Glork and PJ).... I definitely think she's scum.

I can't believe you have the gall to say that when every other sentence you type is a defense of a Glork action or an attack on a comment about Glork. pablito did it strategically for some curious reason or another, but yours looks more like straight up brown-nosing, and it's going to trash your credibility in this game if you're not careful.

You say you're primarily finding Glork and pablito innocent because of who's attacking them. Well, let me tell you how I see your entry into this game. As scum or town, you decided to make faith in Glork the cornerstone of your worldview. Now, every action anyone takes is seen by you through Glork-colored glasses. And it doesn't sound like you're keeping the option open that the people criticizing Glork are town--you're trying to splat every single anti-Glork point down with a giant flyswatter.

If you're town, you should view my arguments from both perspectives, one of which is the truth: I'm legitimately suspicious of Glork and others, I'm not distancing from Yos or CTD, because I'm town. If you're town, I hope you realize you're on an island by yourself as you find everything I say scummy and you find everything Glork says smells like roses. It's true that occasionally one town makes a brilliant scum discovery that no one else agrees with, but let me tell ya, ace, this ain't that time. You're utterly tone-deaf on this one. Or you're scum.

Addressing your reasons for finding me scummy (which I think are all secondary to the real reason: cause I'm being big meanie to your pal Glork):

You go from pablito/timmy/sc/cbox/Glork to pablito/Phoebus/MoS to Rosso/Twomz/CTD. That's quite a changing list. I find that suspicious, since, to me, it seems a bit like you're just trying to find a good execution target and you disregard the rest.

This is a silly comment. Since when are suspicions not supposed to change over the course of D1? OMG MBL U RANDOM VOTED PHOEBUS AND U DONT FIND HIM SCUMMY NEMORE WTF

I find it odd that you attacked pablito for changing a vote to a FoS. There really is quite a small difference, but I don't see why only scum would see that difference.

Scum are more concerned with their image than town. Thus they'd be more likely to draw attention to changes in their image via tricks like this. I believe the first scum caught in Himalayan was nailed for doing something similar. I never said it was a guaranteed tell, just something to note.

Linking Mert to Glork was rather ridiculous, in my eyes, when Glork was asking Mert for clarification.

You bought Glork's "linking" paranoia hook, line and sinker, which is not surprising given your deepfelt love for him. What actually happened is that Glork made a big post commenting on most of the players in the game. I noticed that he left out Mert and asked him for his opinion of Mert. Glork called me a fucking idiot who couldn't read. I corrected him--he'd actually never given his opinion of Mert, so he was wrong and I was immensely relieved to not be a fucking idiot. That is what actually happened, and it doesn't surprise me that you were too busy sucking Glork's toes to get the story correct.

The nuts-theory...I have played in quite a few Mafias, and I've never seen it happen.

And you find me scummy for thinking it up? Got a surprise for ya boy genius: PJ thought it up independently at the same time I did.

Linking PJ, pablito and Glork. Again, pablito was on PJ's and Glork's execution list.

I'm not trying to irrevocably link those three--I clearly stated such. I'm just presenting evidence that may help draw conclusions later. Are you saying scum kings wouldn't ever put any scumpartners on their LOEs? That's deliciously naive of you.

I don't see the reasoning why PJ/Pooky/Glork should've died over Thok, so I think you're trying to cast suspicion on good, active players that way.

I thought you found Pooky a sucky, inactive player. I stated that Thok was a perfectly fine scumkill N1, so congratulations for missing the crux of my point entirely.

Sorry if this post seems harsh, it's actually all in good fun. And you really should get your nose out of there before any permanent damage is done.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

clearly he thinks i'm an inactive sucky player who strikes pure fear into the hearts of scumbags everywhere.

@SV, which points have I not addressed sufficiently?

[CrashTextDummie]

Zindaras, your case against me is utterly ridiculous.

Endeavour

s

? You posted the votes. You never followed up on them. You never really tried to get the king to prod them (in fact, you didn't even ask for a prod when you voted him). You were content with just lying low.

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it? I used my votes the only way I can in this game: To notify the king of things I feel should be adressed. I don't have any control over what he does with it.

It should also be noted that there's a difference between not posting at all for a while and posting every once in a while and saying nothing of susbtance in the process. It has already been proven in this game that prodding ubertimmy does not result in him posting any useful content.

You vote them for one scummy move, but you don't point out why else we should vote them. You don't make a case, you just point out scummy posts, apparently hoping other people jump on it.

Again, what do you expect me to do? I see something scummy, I vote. I'm sincerely sorry that I don't have 3 paragraph cases on all these people...[/sarcasm]

I really hope you are joking here, but pointing out scummy posts and voting accordingly is what a pro-town player is supposed to do. You did it yourself when you declared me scummy for one post I made. If I were able to make a detailed case against someone on D2 shortly after a significant number of posts have been lost, this game would be a lot easier.

Rosso was under suspicion for quite a while. He posted nothing in his defense. He didn't respond to pablito's allegation. He didn't respond to anything after his first few posts, which were very very odd.

The first time Rosso was mentioned by the king at all was 24 hours (give or take 1) before the deadline hit. Before that, he didn't seem to mind him (check his Post 349 for reference, where he said that he didn't have "any strong feelings" about anyone not discussed by him before. This was after Rosso had made his last contribution to the game, i.e. all his posts were available for review). When he was executed, his only real offense that I could agree with was "not getting his shit together" like he promised, but then again, the pro-town thing to do according to you would have been to ask for his prod, which I don't think anyone did (certainly not the king).

So you ignore PJ's posting throughout the entire day and condemn him for his execution?

Which part of "judging by his actions, as opposed to his words" did you not understand? A scum-king can be as pro-town as he wants all day long without doing any harm to himself or his team. It's his execution which ultimately counts. Plus, I wouldn't put it behind PJ to fool me for a while, given his skills at playing this game.

I'll note, by the way, that you nicely avoided weighing in on Rosso.

This is the only semi-reasonable point in this entire post. Like a number of other people, I'm guilty of not being more active when the day came to an end. I did however clearly state that the one person on his LoE whose execution I could support was bird1111.

PJ and SC. Your vote on PJ is damning him for his one move and you leave everything else he's posted out.

Way to not read what I said. I vote PJ because his reign as a whole is more in line with that of a scum-king in my opinion, not because I'm "leaving everything else he's posted" out. Again, I have to ask you: Is it scummy to reevalute someone I found pro-town before with the added knowledge of how the execution went down?

SC because you damn him, again, for his one post in which he said PJ made a good execution.

Again, you don't seem to grasp what really went down. SC said PJ made a good execution

while at the same time saying that he didn't understand why Rosso was executed at all

. How can it be a good execution if you don't understand why it happened in the first place?

And while we're on the subject of "damning someone for one post", I believe that's what you're trying to do to me right now. Just thougt I'd point that out.

Ubertimmy's just reeks of hypocriticism, and ignores all the other lurkers.

Ubertimmy and bird1111 were the most extreme lurkers on D1 in my opinion. I can't afford to vote every single lurker in the game, because that would render my votes completely useless.

What disturbs me most of all is that you don't make cases. You just post random scummy tidbits and hope others do the work for you. I see that as scum trying to avoid the spotlight and get town lynched.

Newsflash for you, champ. The king

has

to make all the work for me. The only thing

I

can do is point out who I think is scummy and hope for a pro-town king to make the right decision. I find your accusation that doing this is scummy absolutely ludicrous.

[CrashTextDummie]

While I'm at it:

Glork - mind commenting on Twomz, now that I have refreshed your memory?

LuckayLuck - likewise. Please answer my question.

[Glork]

Yeah, I'm re-considering Twomz now. Given that there's hardly any other content to work with, Twomz has definitely jumped up a couple of notches on my list.

Yos: I'm down to about 75% now, but I'm still pretty certain. Sorry, mate, but you know how stubborn I get when I think I've found scum. Still, I'm looking at alternative courses of action both now and in the future. Nevertheless, I'm going to quote these questions for truthery and ask that everyone answer them:

Everyone else needs to answer the following questions:

1. What do you think of Glork's current LOE? If you were king, what would your LOE look like?

2. If we were going to pick and execute one person on the current LOE, who would it be, and why?

I'm going to go ahead and vouch for Zindie's innocence. It may not mean much to anybody now, but he and I have been playing mafia together since long before either of us knew what MafiaScum was. I know his play and he knows mine. I'm pretty certain that he's pro-town.

I voiced my opinion, I placed my vote. What else do you expect me to do? Come begging to the king whenever I feel a player hasn't posted enough, so he may do something about it? I used my votes the only way I can in this game: To notify the king of things I feel should be adressed. I don't have any control over what he does with it.

I would expect you to ask for a prod when voting a lurker

based on the fact that he is lurking.

I've already addressed this point with MBL. I feel that it is every player's task to make sure that people are active. If you are unhappy that Timmy is not posting, you are perfectly capable of posting "Could we get a modprod on him?"... are you not?

@SV, which points have I not addressed sufficiently?

...all of them? How are these for starters:
Your failure to follow through on your early-game attack on me.
Your failure to actually post basically anything else of content for the better part of two days, other than a couple of half-assed defenses.

[CrashTextDummie]

I would expect you to ask for a prod when voting a lurker

based on the fact that he is lurking.

I've already addressed this point with MBL. I feel that it is every player's task to make sure that people are active. If you are unhappy that Timmy is not posting, you are perfectly capable of posting "Could we get a modprod on him?"... are you not?

If you had quoted the next paragraph, you would have had my answer to that question.

Ubertimmy has been prodded, and he posted. He didn't post anything of substance though, and there is nothing I can do about that.