Newbie Setup (Matrix6 implemented)

[borkjerfkin]

I think Quadz' method is superior.

[quadz08]

Also I'm not sure if it can be fixed without creating more problems, but if there is a roleblocker in the setup as you're listed them, there's a cop. (i think you'd need a third variable to be able to stop that from happening, but that gets too complicated)

Made a small change to remove this issue.

[Zachrulez]

Eh, have a roleblocker exist in all 2 power role setups, and have no scum power when only 1 exists? Results in weaker scum teams when town power is weaker but gives scum room to fakeclaim in those setups. (I think it's important not to encourage a meta where uncountered claims are considered town so having setups where scum can make uncountered claims is somewhat important to me.)

That should eliminate the concept of a cop being guaranteed to exist when a roleblocker does because that throws a few roleblocker setups in where one doesn't.

What I'm proposing would look like this.

1 Cop, 1 Tracker, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Tracker, 1 Doc, 5 VT vs 1 Goon, 1 Roleblocker
1 Cop, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Tracker, 6 VT vs 2 Goons
1 Doc, 6 VT vs 2 Goons

[quadz08]

Just those 6 setups, Zach? And no other scum PRs?

[Zachrulez]

Just those 6 setups, Zach? And no other scum PRs?

I think simpler is better in this case yes. That would be a bit more complex version of f11 without the vanilla setup. Rolecop leaves the scumteam a bit too weak against 2 town power roles for my liking, and the strongman role isn't hugely different from the roleblocker in the way it punishes premature town roleclaiming anyway. (They go about it in a different way, but their power in punishing it is about the same.)

[quadz08]

I actually rather like that. That is a lot more eloquent than what I had, still allows for a similar degree of scum fakeclaims. It gives scum a little bit of information (how many PRs) but that's relatively minor.

Thoughts from the crowd?

[borkjerfkin]

D1 roleblocker lynch pins scum into a corner

[Zachrulez]

D1 roleblocker lynch pins scum into a corner

Game's going pretty badly for scum anyway if they can't stop their roleblocker from getting lynched on D1.

(Basically massclaim is going to be of some benefit to town after any scum power role is lynched, even in Quad's layout.)

[borkjerfkin]

I mean that's true but this is incredibly swingy -- scum has to claim VT, you get 2 autoclears, and basically you can figure out which PR should claim and just start clearing the shit out of people.

[Zachrulez]

How often did the roleblocker actually get lynched on d1 in the f11 setup? I'm just curious. (It will appear my proposed version of the setup as frequently as it did there.)

I do know the win rate of the cop+doc setup in f11 never quite hit 50% for town though, so I don't think balance is a problem. (The breaking strategy for that setup after a roleblocker lynch was known not too long after the setup was put in play and that paticular issue never got the setup removed, the balance ultimately favoring scum did after something like 3 years in play, which the mountainous version of f11 played more of a part in than anything.)

[Zachrulez]

Data up to newbie 867 had the F11 setup appearing 321 times. Out of that, 22 of those games featured day 1 roleblocker lynches. (Just under 7%)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... +game+data

Actually a lot of interesting data there. Did it ever get updated?

[Mr. Flay]

Game's going pretty badly for scum anyway if they can't stop their roleblocker from getting lynched on D1.

Exactly.

Nice work quadz.

[Quilford]

Code: Select all

Mafia Goon		  Mafia Goon		   Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	  Town Tracker		 Town Doctor

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies for 2:7.

/setup idea

[Quilford]

So basically:

2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, 6x Vanilla Townie
2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Tracker, 5x Vanilla Townie
2x Mafia Goon vs. Town Roleblocker, Town Doctor, 5x Vanilla Townie

Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, Town Roleblocker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Doctor, Town Tracker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia Rolecop, Mafia Goon vs. Town Jailkeeper, 6x Vanilla Townie

Mafia 1-Shot Strongman, Mafia Goon vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Roleblocker, 5x Vanilla Townie
Mafia 1-Shot Strongman, Mafia Goon vs. Town Cop, Town Doctor, 5x Vanilla Townie

[Quilford]

Maybe replace the Miller with an Innocent Child (activate via PM type).

[quadz08]

Singer and I don't like the miller / IC. Weird alignment stuff is no bueno in newbies (Also, the miller doesn't fall into any line with an investigation, so it's essentially a named townie.). The concept is cool, though, if there's an alternative role to replace that space.

[Quilford]

Commuter / Bodyguard / Bulletproof?

[Quilford]

My order of preference is Bodyguard >= Bulletproof > Commuter.

[Quilford]

Or even Tracker? EDIT: Edited Tracker in.

[singersigner]

Switched Miller to Tracker from Quilford's idea. I'd like to hear opinions from the audience, please.

Mafia Goon	Mafia Goon	Town Cop
Town Jailkeeper	Town Roleblocker	Mafia 1-Shot Strongman
Mafia Rolecop	Town Tracker	Town Doctor

Pick any row, column, or diagonal with three cells.

Add Mafia Goons and Vanilla Townies for 2:7.




Also,

official ruling on Newbie Game Deadlines:

[quote="CURRENT "New Newbie Mod" PM"]All games must be run with fixed 3-week maximum deadlines per game day![/quote]
This is being changed to:
[quote="NEW "New Newbie Mod" PM"]All games must be run with 2- to 3-week deadlines per game day![/quote]

[zoraster]

dammit. no 30 minute deadlines? also, i haven't thought about the implications taht much, but the design element of quilford's matrix is genius for its simplicity and understand...ability. which is frankly very important for newbies.

[Remembrance]

I think it's really good, but a town cop with two mafia goons might be a bit tough on the goons.

[Cheery Dog]

Town JK + town RB sounds like a bad idea

[Quilford]

Only problem there is if each targets the other and then the Mafia try to kill the Roleblocker w/out the Strongman power. In that case, the Roleblocker should survive.

[singersigner]

I honestly think that the balance issue is negligible for either the cop + 2 goon setup or the JK+RB setup. The cop setup is semi-balanced by the fact that experienced players who would necessarily know how to not get lynched would potentially be a night-kill threat anyway, and there's nothing to prevent that from happening. The JK+RB setup doesn't seem to be an issue, especially since that setup is matched up with the mafia Strongman, who can get through them anyway. As to the JK/RB targeting each other issue, I'm willing to make a blanket resolution that all newbie games are required to follow via the standard role PMs. Either the jailkeeper resolves first, or the roleblocker does, and that will just be the standard Newbie Game resolution. Thoughts as to which one?

I

really

like the fact that there are at least two options for everything, so no powerrole will automatically know the setup.

To also address various questions/concerns:

• Newbie games were started in batches because of the convenience of updating the queue in that manner. Now that the queue is updated more frequently, games will be up as they are filled, with the exception that if there are only the minimum amount of newbies in the queue for a game, I'll wait until there's at LEAST a couple more to account for potential flakes or immediate replacements that mods can just grab automatically from the top of the queue.
  
• I agree with adding an SE, but not an IC, which will help maintain the queue of ICs as well as help balance out the SE queue IN COMBINATION WITH
  amending the SE requirement to three games, AS WELL AS requiring at least one of them to be non-newbie game to be an SE
  --this will prevent newbies from hitting their newbie game limit and immediately recycling into the SE queue and becoming UNLIMITED NEWBIE STATUS. This will carry over to the IC requirement as you must be eligible to SE before you can IC.
  The new setup will be 5:3:1
  
  
• SEs/ICs /inning to the queue more than once--is that much of an issue now that the queue is updated more frequently? If so, we can start sandwiching back-to-back /ins.
  I agree that the standards for being an IC could be a little bit more strict, but at the current moment, there's no real standard other than "don't be mean" and "even if you aren't good, know what you should be doing...sort of."
  What kind of concrete standards can we implement, that don't rely as heavily on my subjective judgement?
  
  
• I will begin randomizing the setups myself and sending them to the mod to randomize the playerlist.
  
  
• As soon as all of these changes are ready to be implemented,
  I will start a new Newbie Queue Thread, complete with wiki links to "standard role PMs" for the 9 new role options
  (goon, town, roleblocker, jailkeeper, cop, doc, strongman, rolecop, tracker) which newbie mods are free to borrow at will. The SE/IC requirements will also be updated, as well as the deadlines and any other deadlines deemed necessary by this thread.
  
• I'm not familiar with the process of conversion stats (i.e. the retention of newbies past 6 months or so), but quadz has expressed willingness to help compile those stats. If anyone else has any desire to help with that, we'd appreciate any contributions.
  
• I would prefer to allow replacements to continue as they are because
  it's more important to have the games run as smoothly/normally as possible
  , than risk a newbie missing out on their own "new game" experience because they feel pressured into replacing into a game as their only means of playing one--on the flip side, if the queue is continued to be updated at this rate, there's not much of an incentive to replace into a game as a newbie because of the option of starting your own anyway (versus the wait time before would give impatient newbies incentive to replace in instead).

Could the OP of the newbie queue be more clear?

It's been brought to my attention in the past that the queue should be first, and then in the second post, have all of the rules/requirements/"to know" links. I agree that it seems to be cluttered, but I don't know what we can afford to condense/remove/re-order/etc. What are people's thoughts on this/is it necessary to change?