/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Tammy]

Prodded. Thought I posted tomorrow, guess I didn't. Sorry. Will catch up in a bit.

[Tammy]

And by tomorrow I mean yesterday. Just woke up.

[Vi]

Thought I posted tomorrow

We have got to re-break the board's timestamps so this post works.

[Faraday]

Day 2, Votecount 8

Vi (3) - Benmage, Cogito Ergo Sum, Tammy
Cogito Ergo Sum (3) - Vi, OhGodMyLife, Tierce[
WickedestJr (3) - Shadoweh, Nachomamma8, Konowa
Konowa (2) - Deasvail, Llamarble
Deasvail (1) - Wickedestjr

Not voting (1) :

Empire

• With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
  
• Deadline is on 21st of March at 11:15pm GMT
  
• Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2013-03-21 19:15:44)
  
• Empire and Nachomamma8 are V/la

It's Patrick's Day here - so I'll be slack with getting to prods or something as I might decide to partake in some alcohol drinking. Perhaps. Have a green votecount in anticipation/celebreation.

[Llamarble]

Vi can you tell me what your supertowntell was?

Let's see.

Genuine but obviously independent of alignment.
Genuine but mostly independent of alignment.
Vaguely townish but not that spectacular.
Although I agree with the general principle of strong players not faking town tells, there's not really a question whether she would fake something regarding Johhog - it seems obviously necessary; maybe if no one was paying attention to her.
I don't see why you quoted that last post.

The first two points especially suggest to me that you have no clue of how to read someone like Vi. I don't doubt that Vi can fake her town tone. Just look at her points against me. There's not a hint of analysis to be found in them; it's closer to a rejection of thought. The only times she's managed a point that seemed credible is when she's distorted the truth. Hint: see what's missing from Vi's last few posts.

I quoted that last post because of the 'I wish my scumgame were this good' towntell.
I will admit that there isn't a great reason owning up to a derp sounds townish to me.
Having found you scummy and then having trouble coming up with specific points myself earlier D2, I am not so bothered by Vi not having much beyond 'it makes the votes / game make sense.'

[Llamarble]

The "can the competent people please read Vi" appeal sounded town to me, but otherwise CES works decently well as scum.
I suppose with 4 days left the most productive thing to do with today is attack the main issue of discussion.
I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?
VOTE: CES

[Tammy]

YOLO

[Tammy]

Okay so, mulled over this game/situation while running today hoping it would become clear, but unfortunately every time I thought I had a handle of it the spin cycle reset itself and I got battered with indecision once again.

Vi - I don't know who I want to lynch today really.

And I think part of my problem is that the CES/Vi issue is what I've focused most of my attention on. I haven't really had a whole lot of time to look at the game in depth as a whole right now, and though I have some pretty good town reads that I feel confident in, everything else is murky. Empire and tierce are town, those reads I'll take to the bank. (and vi Post 505 isn't actually out of character for empire and is a pretty solid town tell post for empire). Still think that deasvail and wicked are town, and I'd like to believe that benmage and shadoweh are town but I feel kind of antsy about calling shadoweh town. I want nacho mama to be town, and I think llamarbles recent konowa case more likey comes from town than scum. I don't know why benmage said that llamarble is so scummy it hurts; I didn't see anything wrong with the post he was referring to. And llamarbles first vote and mention about konowa's "and I don't care if you think that" is something that on a gut level felt wrong to me too, which makes me feel even better about him and his case. And his "I went to ISP myself to see if I was pleased with my posting quality" in Post 900 is so adorable I just want to say that has to come from town. (and I mean adorable in the most non-condescending way...sometimes I think I should clarify that)

So who does that leave?

(CES, Konowa, OGML, and Vi)

I doubt very seriously the whole scum team is in there though, so one of my town reads or would like to be town reads have to be wrong. Maybe nacho or shadoweh if so? My main problem I think is that I keep reading through them and finding little reasons for why they might be town. I really don't get vi's near certainty that the N/OGML slot is town. I haven't seen anything that really looks townish, and I don't know anything about OGML but does he usually not really do anything in a game? Konowa's Post 18 just really bugged me, but the interaction with tierce and some of his direct interaction with people reads kind of townish. CTD only mentioned konowa once in Post 311 to say that he was flying under his radar, which migh be suspicious. I need to reread through ctd again though as I'd like to compare how he treated empire to his other suspects.

I did wonder if the "you're clearly paying attention" could be a hint of sorts to nacho, as he was voting N at the time but was arguing with shadoweh. Someone had pointed out that he was on one wagon while pushing another and he had answered that he was pushing two of his suspects but he only had one vote, which is a reasonable response, so perhaps that was what he meant by "you're not paying attention"? I don't know.

This whole ces/vi thing has pretty much consumed the day and I don't feel confident about either of them. Part of me thinks that if they are both the same alignment then they are both scum, because it just doesn't feel like a town v town battle. And if one of them is scum and one of them is town I just have no way to sort through the mess to figure out which one it is.

As far as ces goes there are little things I like. Oh and vi, ces' presence on the penguin wagon at start of day isn't as damning as you tried to make it out to be. At the time that ces came into the game, shadoweh and penguin had the largest wagons, so he normally would have ended up on one of those two anyway. I suppose why he ended up back on the penguin wagon after leaving the llamarble wagon would be a good question though. His interaction with llamarble seemed natural enough, and if he were going to just tunnel townies with bad reasons why wouldnt he just stay on llamarble, especially when others were willing to stay on llamarble and vi was telling tierce to get back on llamarble when she got off. I've seen him as scum tunnel on town and stay there even though they started dropping town tells that other people were noticing, so for him to jump off and say "there's something there" in Post 188 seems unnecessary?

His build up to scum reading vi also looks natural enough and Post 290 seems kind of odd to come from scum pushing for a town mislynch. He knows that empires meta cases are rather thorough and tend to be correct. Now I suppose he could have been sucking up to empire a bit here, but that still seems unnecessary and unlikely to work anyway. But it just looks like someone who thinks they have a scum read, not scum pushing a mislynch as I just don't think he'd care that much to try to get a meta case against him. (as an aside, Post 463 is really funny in an ironic way considering the tendency ces has to go after one person quite strongly at a time.) Post 539 feels town? I really liked his reasoning for his scum read in Post 583 as it shows him willing to share his thoughts which I think he's less likely to do as scum? I don't know about this really, the last game I watched when he was scum Mina noted that he was being unusually forthcoming, but he still tunneled in that game pretty strongly. His first vote of the day didn't change at all. I don't know what the smiley tell thing is though, that seems a bit silly? Unless its a personal vi thing.

But ces did you admit in Post 777 that vi hadn't read johhogs posts and therefore didn't know he'd crumbed a power role? Because if you do believe that then wouldn't you have to believe he wasn't part of the scum team that most likely killed him? And since you called Nachomama's scum list a surrealistic masterpiece in Post 736 which also had johhog as scum, why aren't you calling him out as not reading posts while scumhunting. What's your current read on nacho mama?

Post 896 reads town. It kinda reminds me of when I asked him if he was faking ignorance for something silly when he replaced into ny146, and he said that he did sometimes fake ignorance but wouldn't on something like that because he had some pride.

The thing as empire said is he does tunnel as town so I don't know why vi is using that point, and sometimes the reasons aren't great. I remember that his reasons for thinking red coyote was mafia in abarat weren't great, or staeg I think in adwd. Idk one persons good reasons are another persons silly reasons, and I don't see,the reasons here being bad? Overall I feel pretty good about ces, but it's ces. He doesn't sound overly manipulative. But I really don't know.

I feel worse about vi than I do ces but there are things that make me wonder about him too. There's been mention of him just not reading posts or paying attention, but there are indications that he's paying more attention to the game. For instance, Post 285, Post 336, Post 369 and Post 586. And in that last post some of it felt designed to discredit rather than to explain how he felt/thought about his voters. I remember this being his approach in open 463, though I think it was a little more blatant there.

Okay, I know this isn't helpful, but I'm about to falls sleep on my keyboard. I'll finish my thoughts about vi tomorrow.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Having found you scummy and then having trouble coming up with specific points myself earlier D2, I am not so bothered by Vi not having much beyond 'it makes the votes / game make sense.'

That's what not what Vi's saying though. She's absolutely pretending to have things. Do you have some kind of Revolution mafia related trauma where you can't side with me?

I'm ready to choose a side on the matter now and if I'm wrong then fine CES, maybe I don't know how to read someone like Vi. Who is like Vi but not Vi?

In this sense (experienced but merely a semi-competent scum game), I'd say you and Nacho'd be reasonable analogues in this game. Shadoweh too, maybe.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But ces did you admit in Post 777 that vi hadn't read johhogs posts and therefore didn't know he'd crumbed a power role? Because if you do believe that then wouldn't you have to believe he wasn't part of the scum team that most likely killed him? And since you called Nachomama's scum list a surrealistic masterpiece in Post 736 which also had johhog as scum, why aren't you calling him out as not reading posts while scumhunting. What's your current read on nacho mama?

Technically, there's an implicit "(or Vi's faking ignorance)" in that post but regardless I think Johhog's thing was obvious enough that I would expect a 3-man scum team to pick up on it. I can't say I looked into who suspected Johhog after his death. It's not really a game changer, that tell. Nacho's in my "scummy by dint of PoE" tier.

[DeasVail]

Ok, the problem I'm having is the only vote I'd really feel good about right now is Konowa.

I think I'm going back to a Vi townread: I am worried about this being a really cleverly done content surge response to the suspicion, but there are a lot of things that don't feel like scum trying to make content. First, the inconsistencies of her reads (ones that come to mind are her being very conflicted on me, but later crossing off my name, and agreeing that Wicked is town, but then leaving him in the scum pool), while I think scum are more likely to be more clear about where they want their reads to go. Another thing is the VCA and general eagerness behind it. It's just not something that I see scum do, and the attitude to it seems like it would have to be deliberately faked as scum. I guess it could be actually, but I don't know, I'll go with town for now. I think there were other little things, but I can't think of them right now. I guess just pretend?

BUT, I also think CES is town. I think having the 'town-ness' of a wagon influencing reads is not good as well.

Aaaand, I'm thinking Wicked might be a weak townread now too. I agree with Vi about the part about how he would play as scum. I can't think of the words to explain it, but I feel like it's the kind of thing I would totally say as town, but I wouldn't want to be so desperate to have my inactivity excused as scum I guess? Maybe it's the please part that I think would feel too much like asking not to be suspected for scum.

And THEN that leaves me with no one (except Konowa) to call scum. Nacho and Shadoweh are probably getting closer, but I'm kind of resorting to what I'd do as scum with them and trying to actively look for anything I can attack, and I can't think of anything then either.

I really want to try and be less passive and more helpful I guess in my games, so even though I'm really worried about being wrong I'm going to urge people to vote for Konowa. Look at him calling Tierce town, his later explanation, his whinge about me not asking him about it, and then him having nothing to say about it anyway. I don't think this process comes from town and I think it's fabricated by scum. I feel like he's just being ignored, and would love it if people would vote for him with me.

[DeasVail]

Oh, I feel so weird! D:

[Vi]

So I might have just taken a twelve- or thirteen-hour nap.

Vi can you tell me what your supertowntell was?

Y'know, it kind of defeats the purpose of everything I was doing D1 if I just

told

you.

Latter half of 910.

---

I really don't get vi's near certainty that the N/OGML slot is town. I haven't seen anything that really looks townish, and I don't know anything about OGML but does he usually not really do anything in a game?

OGML hasn't done anything Townish. With that said, please see post 920.

(One reason I'm extremely skittish about reading you is because I'm told this kind of thought process does not work on you at all.)

I've seen him as scum tunnel on town and stay there even though they started dropping town tells that other people were noticing

Sekrit: This is what's going on right now; please see Llamarble's and Wetfox's posts for more etc.

I don't know what the smiley tell thing is though, that seems a bit silly? Unless its a personal vi thing.

The tell might not be entirely bad, but as applied there it's rubbish as it was obviously placed there deliberately. (That and I post smileys like a text-messaging hipster. #HASHTAG)

Me having posts where it looks like I'm paying attention to the game might come from me periodically trying to get into the game, albeit with limited success. I really don't know what to tell you if you think that I would willingly join a game like this and not try to care.

[Vi]

Pre-emptively, w.r.t. "omg ur still tunneling on CES" - If I had to switch votes to someone else it would be Konowa.

4.5 days left.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why don't you respond to my #921, Vi?

[Vi]

Because you're trying to undermine a Town read that I'm keeping for reasons that (to me at least) seem self-evident, and likely not doing so in good faith.

Given that other people are voicing similar concerns I'm not opposed to looking at him again later, but I'm not interested in voting him Today.

[Tierce]

Sooo I fail at saying that I will get in this game and then (not) doing so. It won't happen today, but I will

definitely

try to get some stuff in with actual coherence before the Day is over. And yes, I don't like coasting either, but try and move your life over an ocean and a continent and then we'll talk. #YOLO

[Tierce]

Quick thing--Vi, what you said was uncharacteristic of Empire is actually quite in-character for him. Regarding Konowa, no, one-liners aren't anything new, and I hardly have a right to demand content from anyone, but

dayum

. Another person I want a lot more from is OhGodMyLife.

[Konowa]

Just sent Faraday a message. I'm going to have to replace out. I'm not going to have enough time to properly play. Thanks to everyone in this game, and Faraday as well, for not having me on their do not want list. Best of luck to all.

[Tammy]

I really don't get vi's near certainty that the N/OGML slot is town. I haven't seen anything that really looks townish, and I don't know anything about OGML but does he usually not really do anything in a game?

OGML hasn't done anything Townish. With that said, please see post 920.

(One reason I'm extremely skittish about reading you is because I'm told this kind of thought process does not work on you at all.)

Yeah, I saw you said it wasnt impossible he was mafia.

What thought process doesn't work on me? And why would someone else's thought process not working on me have anything to do with my alignment? I have to say I'm a bit intrigued that you aren't really trying to read me. That might not be the right word, but I just woke up and meh. And it's not because I'm totally self-centered but I've been getting antsy lately when I get town reads for almost no reasons, even though I'm always town, and even though this isn't exactly that, it's making me wonder. On the one hand, if you were scum, you could just call me town because you'd know that. But I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here or what I really think about it.

I've seen him as scum tunnel on town and stay there even though they started dropping town tells that other people were noticing

Sekrit: This is what's going on right now; please see Llamarble's and Wetfox's posts for more etc.

Different type of town tells.

I don't know what the smiley tell thing is though, that seems a bit silly? Unless its a personal vi thing.

The tell might not be entirely bad, but as applied there it's rubbish as it was obviously placed there deliberately. (That and I post smileys like a text-messaging hipster. #HASHTAG)

Me having posts where it looks like I'm paying attention to the game might come from me periodically trying to get into the game, albeit with limited success. I really don't know what to tell you if you think that I would willingly join a game like this and not try to care.

That wasn't my point. The statement that you weren't paying a whole lot of attention is at odds with the evidence of you paying attention.

Okay I have some grading to do before I go spend the afternoon being a dork, but I'll definitely make some time tonight to finish up my thoughts on vi. Also will read through konowa again, though his replace out is unfortunate, there was something else I wanted to do. Hmm...oh read through ctd.

YOLO! (unless you're reincarnated and then you might just come back as a troglodyte and wouldn't that be fun?)

[Vi]

If you don't mind, I'd like to skip on the thought process questions.

I have to say I'm a bit intrigued that you aren't really trying to read me. That might not be the right word, but I just woke up and meh. And it's not because I'm totally self-centered but I've been getting antsy lately when I get town reads for almost no reasons, even though I'm always town, and even though this isn't exactly that, it's making me wonder. On the one hand, if you were scum, you could just call me town because you'd know that. But I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say here or what I really think about it.

Well I do appreciate being intriguing. Right now my reason for throwing you into the Town pile (not just a casual metaphor; it's very much the mental image of thoughtlessly pitching you into a pile) is because Empire emphatically said so and I don't have much of a reason to doubt him or disagree like with Benmage and Nacho.

YOLO! (unless you're reincarnated and then you might just come back as a troglodyte and wouldn't that be fun?)

See my first post for my alternative.

[Faraday]

Okay, so now "invitational replacement awkwardness" happens.. But this is awkward in the in-vitational format as trying to wait for 13 "Yes" or "No" responses to each player is very slow. Um, let me do my best. I'm going to PM a bunch of people, later. The Fonz, Vollkan, ChannelDeliBird, Mina, Untrod Tripod, Sotty7, mockingjaye. PM me if you've a problem with any of these replacing in. If none of these want to be potential replacements, welp. (I can't think of a better way of doing this, I'll PM people one a time so no individual listed will know if they were "rejected" unless no one on this list accepts). Replacing Konowa.

Poking Nacho despite his v/la,


Replacing OhGodMyLife unless he posts before I can find a replacement.

[OhGodMyLife]

No no, don't replace me I'll be here after this St. Patty's parade

[Empire]

Just got back, haven't read anything yet so catch-up post tomorrow.

[Tammy]

CES - What's the last scum game you played? Not as a hydra or a replacement. I can't find one and am tired of looking.