NY 163: Void Mountain of the Nightless Temple (Game Over)

[Voidedmafia]

Votecount 1.07:

Metal Overlord - Klick
The Acting Method - Titan, ms. marangal, bulbazak
Bulbazak - Reek, keybladewielder
Otterhorse - underachivers
Robocopter - rachmarie
Human Destroyer - Metal Overlord
Reek - serrapaladin
Underachivers - Human Destroyer, Robocopter
ms. Marangal - BT
keybladewielder - arcangel8, OtterHorse

Not Voting - antilles, The Acting Method

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch and to no-lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-03-31 00:58:14) or by midnight on April 1st, 2013.

keybladewielder is V/LA until Sunday.
The Mastin2 head of The Underarchivers is V/LA until at least the end of March.

[OtterHorse]

Zoraster here. Mainly been letting the Pony do the driving in the game start here as it's not exactly my favorite thing in the world, but I'm here and I think that Rainbow will not object to my pivot. So here's my take:

VOTE: Antilles

Not usually a fan of policy lynching generally, and I think the "games unbalanced therefore we policy lynch" is specious both because the logic is wrong and I dispute the premise. However, I DO like the Antilles vote despite a lack of content from him and here's why:

1. Head claiming IS pro-town. I don't know if it's truly anti-town to resist it

at first

because there are a myriad reason you might think you can keep your identity secret, but once it becomes clear that it's a distraction, give it up and play the game. Because the ability to analyze a player in full is something that is quite helpful to the town. Avoiding that, and carrying someone through to later in the game helps town not in the least.

2. If he didn't head claim, that'd be one thing. But he doesn't head claim AND he basically refuses to engage with the game as a whole. Just do an iso on the guy. It's not just that he hasn't posted or that his posts have been fluffy.

3. Getting rid of purposefully anti-town players is ESSENTIAL in a mountainous setup. There is no question of whether maybe Antilles is just trying to hang back in the shadows to protect a power role. Because there are no power roles and mafia can't kill him. If you think this fundamental change does not alter the playing field of the game you are WRONG. Please step back and analyze this as a nightless mountainous game. A general aversion to lynching those with SECRETS is unfounded here.

Here's the question that I pose to everyone:

Assuming that Antilles is as worthless going forward, refuses to engage, and refuses to even give us a way to evaluate whether the heads' meta matches up with such conduct (or that the guy tends to lurk until later where he'll actually provide content), will we not need to lynch the guy in the future ANYWAY? And assuming the answer is YES (and it should be), are we remiss in not lynching him now when we have a reasonable expectation of his conduct later?

[Robocopter87]

Some people don't wanna reveal their heads, bro, doesn't make them town or scum.

Meaning that your first reason is BS and half of your second is BS.

You need to stop worrying about him not claiming heads, its a secret hydra, who cares who the heads are? Just read him as he is, and if you find scumminess in his actions, then we'll lynch the fool.

You are all wrapped up in head claims and policy lynches, and I expect LOADS more from a hydra of two very intelligent people.

However, the rest of your case on Antilles is pretty compelling.

[Antilles]

Human Destroyer and Bulbazak feel town.

[OtterHorse]

Some people don't wanna reveal their heads, bro, doesn't make them town or scum.

Meaning that your first reason is BS and half of your second is BS.

You need to stop worrying about him not claiming heads, its a secret hydra, who cares who the heads are? Just read him as he is, and if you find scumminess in his actions, then we'll lynch the fool.

You are all wrapped up in head claims and policy lynches, and I expect LOADS more from a hydra of two very intelligent people.

However, the rest of your case on Antilles is pretty compelling.

I'll worry about what I want to worry about, and right now that's a pair of people who are being purposefully obstructionist to the town's understanding of the game. And there's a difference between them being scummy and being anti-town. One is an indication of alignment. The other is an indication of being hurtful to town. He is definitely the latter. He may be the former. But scummy is a lot harder to read than anti-town at this point in the game.

So with that in mind I turn to this: what lynch helps town win in the end more? This game is one that is played over the course of many lynches (minimum 5 for a town win, minimum 7 for a scum win, maximum ~12). The longer he sits and actively hurts us, the more of those lynches are tainted by an unhelpful presence. If you're playing this game from the start as a series of one off scum hunting chances you're not playing the game to win. Most people see that you need to look backwards in a game to determine lynches, but you should absolutely look forward too.

Because here's the thing. We're not on his wagon because he's a bad player and there's a vague idea that maybe policy lynching him will make him a better one. It's not even just "we need to vote him so he'll post more." Both of those things take some effort on his part that we may or may not be able to expect from him. No, this is a SIMPLE thing he could do to help the town. So his refusal to do so is willingly done.

And just to reiterate here: just because he's being lynched because he's anti-town rather than fully scummy doesn't somehow magically make him more likely to be town.

---
Anyway, to return to the points you like: why not vote the guy for those then?

[OtterHorse]

Human Destroyer and Bulbazak feel town.

why?

[Ms Marangal]

but... what about TAM? He's being just as detrimental to the game, and I actually feel that he's scummier then Antilles. at the very least, Antilles is giving reads and asking questions, TAM isn't even doing anything that can be remotely considered scum hunting. TAM's posts are absolutely terrible, and keeping him around makes me feel like shit

[TheUnderachivers]

You guys know Key is scum right?

vote:key

[RachMarie]

@ Antilles you are going to have to do better than that. As for the whole they want to remain secret, that is null tell. And yeah I have no clue who they are cause NS won't tell me. So lets drop that part of the argument and focus on the hydra's posts and not worry about meta. It is a distraction. I find it rather interesting though, that right after a major wall about him, Antilles shows up and throws out two names saying they feel town. That looks like active lurking. No reasoning given, so we have no clue how they came to the conclusion that the two mentioned players are town. That is scummy.


MM we know you think TAM is scum, but you are tunneling, what about the rest of the players?

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

[Titan]

I'll worry about what I want to worry about, and right now that's a pair of people who are being purposefully obstructionist to the town's understanding of the game. And there's a difference between them being scummy and being anti-town. One is an indication of alignment. The other is an indication of being hurtful to town. He is definitely the latter. He may be the former. But scummy is a lot harder to read than anti-town at this point in the game.

NO

NO

RAINBOW THIS IS DUMB.

[Titan]

I MEAN YOU KNOW IT'S DUMB TOO.

[BT]

I'll get to this tomorrow.

[Titan]

will we not need to lynch the guy in the future ANYWAY? And assuming the answer is YES (and it should be), are we remiss in not lynching him now when we have a reasonable expectation of his conduct later?

By this logic you should be voting the shit out of key or perhaps TAM

I mean, C'MON, at least Ant has possible potential b/c we don't actually know who they fully are.

[OtterHorse]

I'll worry about what I want to worry about, and right now that's a pair of people who are being purposefully obstructionist to the town's understanding of the game. And there's a difference between them being scummy and being anti-town. One is an indication of alignment. The other is an indication of being hurtful to town. He is definitely the latter. He may be the former. But scummy is a lot harder to read than anti-town at this point in the game.

NO

NO

RAINBOW THIS IS DUMB.

That actually wasnt me. Look at all the good spelling and use of apostrophies, when has that ever been me?

Now, I actually dont disagree with it completely. I have been in about five hydras at this point, the only one where I didnt claim heads was when I was scum, and that was entirely intentional. The only reason I didnt claim heads was because I was scum there, so yes, it can be a scumtell and at worse is an anti-town tell to refuse to do such.

Antilles is still a good scumpick even if you ignore the heads thing because of how he is really not commenting on much. In just a few posts he manages to

1) Say he is done with RVS and not lay down a vote
2) Vaguely fished for an AA policy lynch
3) Call KBW scummy (maybe?) and refuse to vote
4) Completely misinterpret what I called him scum for and not respond to the correction

He is just floating around making general game read affirmations.

So while I may not be entirely on the same track as zoraster is, not head claiming IS something that is more likely to come from scum than town. Town has nothing to gain from it (still not heard what town has to gain from refusal) but scum can use it to pick up advantages. When Antilles is scummy for other reasons, I fully support our vote there (or on KBW, TAM and serra).

We are having trouble actually being able to communicate though, so maybe this can get fixed a bit when we finally are on AIM at the same time or something.

[TheUnderachivers]

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning

keys ISO is mainly fluff posting and active lurking. Why are you so defensive here?

[Titan]

Er, well the dude literally signed up for the game as a secret hydra:

This is a super secret alt with gobs of exp points in regards to finished games.

You should let me /in.

This is a formal /in unless otherwise stated to not play.

Expecting him to just CLAIM if he gets a town PM and STAY HIDDEN if he rolls scum is rather stretching the situation, and pretty bad focus. I've played under a secret alt before as town, and tbh I can see the motivation to want to stay meta-less in a game if you'd enjoy that *shrug*

[Titan]

He is just floating around making general game read affirmations.

On a side note I do actually find Ant scummy for his active lurking.

[Ms Marangal]

@ Antilles you are going to have to do better than that. As for the whole they want to remain secret, that is null tell. And yeah I have no clue who they are cause NS won't tell me. So lets drop that part of the argument and focus on the hydra's posts and not worry about meta. It is a distraction. I find it rather interesting though, that right after a major wall about him, Antilles shows up and throws out two names saying they feel town. That looks like active lurking. No reasoning given, so we have no clue how they came to the conclusion that the two mentioned players are town. That is scummy.


MM we know you think TAM is scum, but you are tunneling, what about the rest of the players?

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

TAM knows full well that I willing to give just about everyone the benefit of the doubt, though he's been bothering me for a while with his not answering questions and stuff

other then TAM though, KBW, UA, and Possibly Bulba would be good picks IMO

I would like more from MO though, and Serra is quieter then what I'm used to... BT is Meh, so is Klick, Otter, Antilles and Reek,

Robo, I feel is town same with you

and everyone else I have no impression on one way or another

[RachMarie]

Yeah Serra is being awfully quiet... That is not like him Ahem Serra get your butt in here.

@UA I guess I was getting tired of peeps just throwing out names like they were throwing a spaghetti noodle on the wall to see if it sticks to see if the spaghetti is done. Thanks to you and MM for answering my questions, it does help me sort people out.

[Bulbazak]

The Underachivers - Leaning Town. I checked out Mastin's wiki after BBMolla called me Mastin 2.0 in Newbie 1333. It seems that he has a habit of making bad calls when it comes to reads. Therefore, I really can't use that as a scum tell. I also find him overjustifying his scumtells on AA9 and Otter to be townish. It just feels genuine. I don't like them freaking out about the possibility of being lynched. While no one wants to be lynched, scum is more likely to freak out in that matter than town. Them having bad luck with being lynched early in past games might explain it, but this is the reason why I'm not calling them full on town.

This is one of your reads I'd like you to expand on further. Yes, in the Posh mafia game, they got mislynched day one. However, neither of the heads of that hydra are early mislynch bait, so some of their posts read fake. What did you think about them thinking that BT was degraded from town to null partially for questioning me about you but not questioning you about your scum read on us? Mastin said he was going to do what he could to keep them from being lynched, but actually hasn't done anything. And Nero's not some idiot who can't post, but he's not doing anything.

As an aside, how people react to being lynched is personality based most of the time. For instance, I react far more negatively to being voted and possibly lynched as town than I do as scum. But their reaction on the whole is pretty weird.

I would say when it came to my read that I was influenced with what I read in Mastin's wiki. I got the general impression that he wasn't good when it came to reads, which excused much of what I had a problem with. The BT thing was bad, as I pointed out at the time, but it's similar to the bad call that Mastin made on AA9. Not calling me out is strange. Normally I would just think that they missed it, but you raised such a big stink over my vote that I'm surprised they didn't say anything. That could make the read on BT a method to possibly buddy up with you. I will admit that their town read of you just felt off, as I didn't regard you as town at the time.

The big reason that I didn't place them as full on town was because of the way they reacted to being voted. They were in no danger of being lynched, yet they freaked out, which I'm just having a hard time rectifying with a town mindset. Personally, I'd like to see what they do the rest of the day and then come back to my read d2. I can give you an update then if you want.

Otterhorse - Scum. Most of their posts have been about theory or setup. Other than that, they've been advocating strongly for a policy/utility lynch. Their admonishment of me after mine and Titan's back and forth does not feel genuine at all, and feels like more of an attempt to discredit me and any future arguments I might have. That's a strong scumtell with me. Their reads also do not feel genuine at all. It is more like they took a list of people who fell in the scum or null category and threw them together as a lynch list. I will say this is the only scumread that doesn't completely mesh with the others. Should we lynch Otter and they flip scum, I will need to reexamine everything to see who is more likely to be scum.

This is another one I'd like you to expand on. I like this scum read of yours because I don't think anyone but theunderachivers has given this scum read, but i wonder how much is based on strongly disliking the policy lynch aspect of their play. Why doesn't his admonishment feel genuine? The thing that is difficult is that this play concerning policy/utility lynch is how rainbow actually legitimately feels, so it's not out of the ordinary. Also, I tend to play a more emotionally driven game whereas rainbowdash is more logically driven so the reads and the reasons sometimes don't match up...if that makes sense.

With as soon as their admonishment came after your post and my reaction, it felt like they were seizing that opportunity to completely discredit another player. A post like that tends to be emotionally driven in a way, no matter how logical. It makes it easy to judge intent. That's why I got a town read off of your wall, even though I was ticked off. However, I didn't get any such read when I read Otter's admonishment. It felt wooden and devoid of life.

However, now that Zoraster has posted in the hydra, I'm beginning to think that this all just may be a playstyle clash between me and Rainbowdash. Zoraster comes across as genuine, and while I might not agree with everything he says, I can at least see where he's coming from. As I said, Otter was the one scumread that didn't fit. All my other scumreads I could see working together, but I didn't get that from Otter at all. That's why I said that if Otter flipped scum that I'd have to reread everything when it came to forming reads.

@ Antilles you are going to have to do better than that. As for the whole they want to remain secret, that is null tell. And yeah I have no clue who they are cause NS won't tell me. So lets drop that part of the argument and focus on the hydra's posts and not worry about meta. It is a distraction. I find it rather interesting though, that right after a major wall about him, Antilles shows up and throws out two names saying they feel town. That looks like active lurking. No reasoning given, so we have no clue how they came to the conclusion that the two mentioned players are town. That is scummy.


MM we know you think TAM is scum, but you are tunneling, what about the rest of the players?

UA WTF??? What is your reasoning.

TAM knows full well that I willing to give just about everyone the benefit of the doubt, though he's been bothering me for a while with his not answering questions and stuff

other then TAM though, KBW, UA, and Possibly Bulba would be good picks IMO

I would like more from MO though, and Serra is quieter then what I'm used to... BT is Meh, so is Klick, Otter, Antilles and Reek,

Robo, I feel is town same with you

and everyone else I have no impression on one way or another

What is your reasoning behind those reads?

[Bulbazak]

Also, Rache, whatever happened to your reads list?

[Titan]

Zoraster comes across as genuine

Au contraire, imo he comes across forced and artificial as hell.

[Titan]

I don't know if it's truly anti-town to resist it at first because there are a myriad reason you might think you can keep your identity secret,

but once it becomes clear that it's a distraction

, give it up and play the game.

I mean, C'MON, LOOK AT THIS

THAT SLOT IS THE ONLY ONE MAKING A BIG DEAL ABOUT ANT NOT CLAIMING

AND IT HAS "REACHED A POINT WHERE IT IS A

CLEAR

DISTRACTION"

[Robocopter87]

Yeah otter, you guys are being ridiculous

[Bulbazak]

Personally, the only reason I want Antilles lynched is because he's been extremely anti-town. Plus I hear Chkflip might be part of the hydra, and that's a good enough reason for me.