Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)

[Wisdom]

That's generic again. I think Grim wanted you to be specific. Which players you suspect less and which more.

[Zionite]

@Fuzzy

Not asking for support on a wagon that you're certain will hit scum leads me to believe that you don't care about lynching scum. The reasons you gave aren't adequate enough to justify giving up hitting scum for, because scum are easily caught due to the interactions they had when their buddy was getting strung up. It's harder to analyze town wagons than scum wagons on the next Day, because town can easily screw up while scum have to knowingly lynch their partners.

When you start lining up lynches based on false assumptions, the entire game is turned on its head and gets you stuck in a certain mindset. The only time I've ever been able to assume someone was scum before a flip was when he claimed my role (town game I linked). In that instance, I was confident enough to start picking out buddies early because I was certain he was scum, and it turned out I was right. But in general, you can't be that certain as town. Instead of constantly testing your own reads, you verify a false assumption and start building more reason against other players based on it. It's like building a house on a foundation of sand. It might look good for a few days, but eventually it'll fall apart because it was built on a faulty foundation.

So let me ask you this: if your goal is to catch my scum buddy, why wouldn't my wagon be the first place to look? It would seem to me that you could probably rule out anyone actually on the wagon as my buddy; it escalated pretty quickly and the late voters were the hardest pushers for information (like yourself and DBK). I don't think a buddy would vote me too early, and he or she wouldn't be pressing me so hard either. There was also the lack of a hammerer to consider. So the scum buddy is likely in the pool of non-voters, especially those with weak reasoning. You could look at Horus, RachMarie, Wisdom, and Grimgroove. Of those, Wisdom and Grimgroove were the most adamant about not hammering and gave adequate reasoning. Horus fence-sat on it pretty hard, and Rach is behaviorally acting scummy but didn't hammer either (and I can't recall if she gave any reasoning why). I recall you saying Horus was reading town to you, so barring any shenanigans with scum voting their buddy too early, Rach is probably the best candidate for my scum buddy in the case that i'm mafia.

My point is, this isn't that hard to do. You're claiming that the reason you're not pushing my wagon is because you want to catch the partner, but there's plenty to do that with already. You haven't actually attempted this though, which makes me think you're being insincere and biding your time. Even if you did follow through with some logical analysis of my wagon and it's (non)participants on the assumption I'm scum, you're still making an assumption that hasn't been verified and that your town reads have expressed doubt about. So you're being arrogant and playing badly.

[Zionite]

Or you're scum.

[fuzzybutternut]

Who's to say I'm not looking on your wagon? I don't openly announce everything I'm going to do. That makes it easy for scum to figure me out. I don't like that, therefore I choose a reclusive playing style. While it might not be hard to do, it is rather suicidal for me to do.

[Zionite]

If you're a PR, this is the wrong way to play it.

So you're planning on looking at my wagon but haven't yet? Why is planning to look at it so threatening to the scum team? And so what if your reads are public? It makes it easier for TOWN to figure you out too, and even better if you get NK'd and we have something to go on in your name.

[Wisdom]

Zionite, that whole thing sounded like you know he's town. Especially after insisting that he's scum for so long.

[Wisdom]

If you're a PR, this is the wrong way to play it.

And rolefishing now? Who said anything about PRs?

[Zionite]

I'm showing that if he were town, this would be the mindset he would have. But he doesn't. There's been an inconsistency in his play that tells me he's scum. Why the hell would I analyze my own wagon assuming I'm scum and help him figure out who my buddy is? That post would be idiotic to make if I were scum.

This is the first I've seen of anything resembling a breadcrumb from him, so I don't think he's a PR. Maybe scum planning to claim PR. I don't know. But I didn't ask anything about a role, I'm just stating that he's doing it wrong if he has a good one.

[Zionite]

Again, there's this idea of uncertainty that town should have that he lacks, which makes him arrogant or scum.

[Wisdom]

Scumtells keep dropping.
Now we have "why would I do this as scum" WIFOM too.
And no, this whole thing sounded like you know he's town and you're trying to tell him how to play. Not like you think he's scum.
All while you were refusing to consider the possibility of him being bad town and not scum earlier.
Just no.

VOTE: Zionite

[fuzzybutternut]

If you're a PR, this is the wrong way to play it.

So you're planning on looking at my wagon but haven't yet? Why is planning to look at it so threatening to the scum team? And so what if your reads are public? It makes it easier for TOWN to figure you out too, and even better if you get NK'd and we have something to go on in your name.

Look, don't tell me how to play this game. I know what i'm doing and I don't take kindly to being told what to do or how to do it.

Considering I don't know who's town and who isn't, I don't want anyone figuring me out right now. That leads to sheeping, and I don't want that.

[fuzzybutternut]

Again, there's this idea of uncertainty that town should have that he lacks, which makes him arrogant or scum.

LOL. Have you not realized how stubborn I am yet? I mean, honestly.


Looks like Wisdom is coming to his senses.

[Zionite]

Scumtells keep dropping.
Now we have "why would I do this as scum" WIFOM too.
And no, this whole thing sounded like you know he's town and you're trying to tell him how to play. Not like you think he's scum.
All while you were refusing to consider the possibility of him being bad town and not scum earlier.
Just no.

VOTE: Zionite

If you're a PR, this is the wrong way to play it.

So you're planning on looking at my wagon but haven't yet? Why is planning to look at it so threatening to the scum team? And so what if your reads are public? It makes it easier for TOWN to figure you out too, and even better if you get NK'd and we have something to go on in your name.

Look, don't tell me how to play this game. I know what i'm doing and I don't take kindly to being told what to do or how to do it.

Considering I don't know who's town and who isn't, I don't want anyone figuring me out right now. That leads to sheeping, and I don't want that.

Again, there's this idea of uncertainty that town should have that he lacks, which makes him arrogant or scum.

LOL. Have you not realized how stubborn I am yet? I mean, honestly.


Looks like Wisdom is coming to his senses.

[Zionite]

Scumtells keep dropping.
Now we have "why would I do this as scum" WIFOM too.
And no, this whole thing sounded like you know he's town and you're trying to tell him how to play. Not like you think he's scum.
All while you were refusing to consider the possibility of him being bad town and not scum earlier.
Just no.

VOTE: Zionite

I don't see how playing out a hypothetical scenario to show a train of thought for townFuzzy is scummy. It makes sense to me to illustrate the disconnect between what should be happening and the reality.
I don't know if he's town, but I do know that he's been very anti-town throughout his entire play. But I'm always willing to consider the alternatives, something that fuzzy is incapable of. Yes, I can fathom being wrong and he's town, but I trust my reads and the tells he's given me enough to be comfortable voting him.
If I was refusing to believe he's bad town, I wouldn't be saying it so much. That's up for the players to decide and it's my responsibility to include it as a possibility, both for myself and everyone else. Barring meta, he's scum. No one has given me anything to read of Fuzzy to lead me to believe otherwise, except Fuzzy's most recent posts that pretty much prove he's just arrogant and doesn't care what the proper way to play is.

If you're a PR, this is the wrong way to play it.

So you're planning on looking at my wagon but haven't yet? Why is planning to look at it so threatening to the scum team? And so what if your reads are public? It makes it easier for TOWN to figure you out too, and even better if you get NK'd and we have something to go on in your name.

Look, don't tell me how to play this game. I know what i'm doing and I don't take kindly to being told what to do or how to do it.

Considering I don't know who's town and who isn't, I don't want anyone figuring me out right now. That leads to sheeping, and I don't want that.

Oh geez...like this, Wisdom. He just assumes people will sheep him because of how right he is, not because of how solid his cases are.

Again, there's this idea of uncertainty that town should have that he lacks, which makes him arrogant or scum.

LOL. Have you not realized how stubborn I am yet? I mean, honestly.


Looks like Wisdom is coming to his senses.

I have, but only through close scrutiny. The first couple of times I wrote off as "could be faking it", but now it's just ridiculous.


Anyway, point taken. I had two possibilities, and one is now looking stronger than the other.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: RachMarie

[fuzzybutternut]

I don't assume people are going to sheep me. I assume scum is going to sheep me, because they do that kind of thing.

[Wisdom]

Oh geez...like this, Wisdom. He just assumes people will sheep him because of how right he is, not because of how solid his cases are.

Seriously? That's what you understood?
He was saying that scum will sheep the popular reads. That's what he doesn't want.
That's why I was not giving town reads when I was asked, but you didn't seem to care.
But you care about fuzzy.
Because you're scum and he's accusing you.
And now you vote Rach to lure me to vote her instead of you.
But it won't happen because my vote won't go anywhere.

[Zionite]

@Fuzzy:It's kind of silly to assume scum will sheep you; they do what they need to do to win. That may involve barning your cases or completely ignoring them for a better target.
And I'm sorry if I offended you; I don't mean to tell you how to play, I'm just trying to resolve why your play isn't what I would expect from town.

@Wisdom: Yeah looks like I misread that. But the point stands; he's got enough evidence from this game to make me believe he's simply arrogant instead of scummy. I don't need to ISO that to show you I'm sure.
I did care about you not sharing town reads, but it seems that more than two players feel that way, so maybe I'm undervaluing the concept of keeping your reads close to the chest. Still, I think it's useful to lock everyone into some sort of read so you can mark the radical changes later. On MTGS we do town-scum lists to stimulate discussion sometimes; everyone posts their current town and scum reads. It's very useful for ferreting out the fence-sitters and jump starting lethargic town. But I disagree that I'm simply OMGUSing Fuzzy; my posts have ample content to show that's not the case.

I'm not trying to "lure" you to vote Rach. I've stated my case against Rach and she hasn't responded to it, so that's my next push. You can agree with it or not, but either way I want to know why beyond assuming I'm scum.

[RachMarie]

Where is your case?

I see a lot of mega tunneling on Fuzzy then a vote for me?

[fuzzybutternut]

It's exactly how wisdom said, Zio. Scum will sheep the popular reads. Say I make a case. A brilliant case that cannot be refuted. The rest of town jumps on it. "Yeah! He's right! How could we have overlooked that!." Scum will sheep that read, whether said person is scum or not. Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

[Zionite]

@Rach:258 went completely ignored. I thought it was pretty obvious that I had two cases in the mix, so I don't think I was tunneling here. I don't like being ignored, so Fuzzy not answering me was just pissing me off.

@Fuzzy: Right, I understand that. But there's value in analyzing those "yeah he's right" posts, both before and after a lynch, and I'm not going to sacrifice my ability to give the town my reads just to avoid scum barning it if it's wrong.

[Malakittens]

Zion..

Did you just rolefish towards Fuzzy.

>_>

[fuzzybutternut]

Why are you softclaiming a PR?

[Malakittens]

Where is your case?

I see a lot of mega tunneling on Fuzzy then a vote for me?

To be fair.. Fuzzy did a lot of tunneling himself on Zion without a case.

Why are you calling out Zion's tunneling, but not Fuzzy's tunneling?

[Zionite]

Yeah, I'd like to see some scum reads from Rach. I'm getting the feel that she's reading Wisdom as misguided town, and she started pushing Fuzzy a little bit. But there's nothing solid.

[Wisdom]

How the heck did you get that feel? Her post was referring to you.