Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)

[Wisdom]

Did everyone forget about this game or what

[JasonWazza]

Vote Count 2.1

[1] Sword_of_omens: Wisdom,

Not voting: Grimgroove, Miss Destroyer, Horus, Sword_of_omens, Malakittens, RachMarie,

with 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2013-06-21 14:25:49)

[Malakittens]

Mara? When did you get the 'I think swords is scum'?

Why do you think he's a town slot?

Who do you think is scum? I mean you're okay at saying Sword is town without going into detail why.

[Wisdom]

Mala, who is scum?

[Grimgroove]

Back from my V/LA, will catch up with this thing. I also missed the last part of the previous dayphase so I've got the feeling I'll have a lot to comment on despite the low activity (considering the prod I got). More tomorrow though, completely wrecked right now.

[Malakittens]

Mala, who is scum?

Thinking maybe Rach, Hd/Mara hydra. Had a feel on DBK, but waiting for Swords to post.

Grim feels town and so do you. Horus is null-leaning town as I like him last day period.

[Malakittens]

Hey Rach, hey Rach!

I see you posting elsewhere!

[Grimgroove]

This game seems to be on its ass for some reason. What happened?

On the Zionite-lynch as a whole I don't have much to say. I've always had a town-read on him, and though it's easier to say in retrospect, I don't understand the push that went on on him at the end of the previous stage. The problem is that this is all in hindsight now, and I don't want to sound like the prick who "told you so" or rubbing your nose in a lynch that I wasn't online for to give my input on.. But I can't help but feel that some people do feel "off" in this lynch so I hope my criticism won't be taken in a way that would further demotivate activity in this topic.

After reading through the lynch I mainly don't like Wisdom's role in it and the way he responded to the hammer. He seems like a different person during the build-up of the pressure against Zionite and the post-hammer/pre-flip game. In 390 Wisdom states his vote won't go anywhere, two pages later he's acting all bothered over the lynch.

The DBK-hammer I don't consider as scummy. I think the general mood at that stage was clear: Zionite was going to be lynched. All the most active participants (fuzzy and Wisdom most notably) were behind it, and according to me, rather pushing it. The way I understand it is that the "intent to hammer" is mainly there to provide the "soon-to-be-lynched" with an opportunity to claim. But Zionite already did claim at the point of DBK's hammer, and Miss Destroyer even said that claim was reason enough "to kill it with fire" (post 437). Also fuzzy was asking for a prompt lynch in post 432, which if he hadn't flipped town tonight, I would have considered the scummiest post during the lynch-process because it came even before the claim.
It's true that I would have liked to put in my two cents and I would have appreciated the chance to do so before the lynch, but I wouldn't want to presume that I'd be able to turn that wagon around and I wouldn't presume DBK expecting that I could change his mind. I already gave my read on Zionite before, and the last discussion didn't change that (though you couldn't know that, granted, but aside from the associative tell with Malakittens I also don't see any new elements).

Some quotes that stood out for me:

Scumtells keep dropping.
Now we have "why would I do this as scum" WIFOM too.
And no, this whole thing sounded like you know he's town and you're trying to tell him how to play. Not like you think he's scum.
All while you were refusing to consider the possibility of him being bad town and not scum earlier.
Just no.

VOTE: Zionite

I think the entire string of posts 380, 381, 384 and 390 all sound very very agressive and like someone who smells blood. The 384 I quoted above shows how Wisdom seems to choose to interpret Zionite as scummy no matter what he says, post 390 is more of the same. Note how often Wisdom uses the string "this sounds like" in his argumentation, clearly indicating this is all interpretation. But nonetheless these arguments manage to create a certain mood wherein Zuionite appears obvscum.
I personally believe that Zionite made some pertintent arguments in post 388 for instance, but isntead Wisdom chose to ignore the largest part of that and just hand-picked one little segment in post 390 that he could turn around as a scummy sign of omgus.

Wisdom, what do you think of this string of posts in retrospect and how do you justify the pick-and-choose from post 388?

I HAD AN EPIPHANY WHILE I WAS READING THE EARLY GAME AGAIN

VOTE: Zionite

Hey guys, remember when Zionite had an L-1 wagon on him?
Remember when he reacted strongly to everyone's vote?
There's...someone he didn't react to.

I'll give you a hint: their name starts with Mala, and ends with Kittens.

I don't see how a mere "associative tell" is enough for such conviction in voting for someone. Same for Horus.
Question to both Horus and Miss Destroyer: What do you make of the supposed connection now that Zionite flipped town?

Can we lynch Zio now?

I don't like DBK's hammer at all.
For one, he didn't let Grimgroove catch up and give his opinion on everything that happened.
Second, it looks like he tried to post reasons and justify the reasons he's hammering, like he felt it was bad doing so.
Third, said reasons look like rehashes of what others have posted.
Finally, saying he thinks there's scum in {Zionite, fuzzy} is likely laying down groundwork to push fuzzy after Zionite. Lining up lynches.

With the first one I'd agree from a personal standpoint, but how do you think I could have influenced this debate given the general mood? None of my earlier posts on Zionite seemed to have had a big effect.
Second, I don't see justification as a bad thing. Again, "it looks like" is simply your choice of how to interpret this, and I can't say I like your choice.
Third, you formulated some of these reasons yourself I'm sure. If the reasons are compelling enough according to you to make you state you're not moving your vote, why can't they be convincing enough for someone else as well?
And finally, I think this is exactly what you are trying to do with DBK/swordofomens.

wait I had not yet caught up jeez why did you hammer already DBK? I cant wait til I have my own computer again grrr...


Ok some quick points before the thread is locked up....

My town reading of DBK has gone down somewhat with that hammer...

Wis I feel is towny. He is pushing on peeps and his reasons for thinking peeps are scummy are sound and have merit. He is wrong about me but still he had a good case so it does not feel like hes just trying to get get mislynches going.

Zio on the other hand..... bah I think he is scumz. I was going to declare intent to hammer (something DBK SHOULD have done )

I do not see Zio and Fuzzy being scum budz though it does not feel like scum distancing. So if we are right about Zio being scumz, and I think we are, then Fuzzy is probably Town, the inverse though is not necessarily so (if Zio flps Town that does not mean for sure that Fuzzy is scumz). This does not feel like the scum Fuzzy I met in Greater Idea Mafia. (Where he fake claimed Seer).

Horus is probably town. His posts feel very much like a Town PoV.

Need to take a good look at Mara and Miss D.

I don't like all the fuss you're making about the hammer. I see a link with Wisdom's behavior towards this hammer.
I also don't like the repetiion of RachMarie thinknig Zionite is the correct lynch. There's no objective reason for this kind of conviction, so I'm assuming this conviction was an act. A scummy act at that.

Zion..

Did you just rolefish towards Fuzzy.

>_>

I also don't like the way Malakittens is trying to sound holier than the pope with this PR-fishing-business. What was the pioint of that Malakittens? Do you think that was a reasonable argument to get another wagon/case going? Why do you think others did not consider it as rolefishing and why did you? Making a fuss over nothing like that doesn't seem pro-town to me, but more like an act to sound like a good boy telling everyone to be good but stealing candy himself later that day.

VOTE: sword
hi

Still being wary of "the voice in the sky", I get the feeling you're lining up another lynchvictim. Somehow I don't feel you're actually scumhunting, but putting people in traps with questions and answers you choose to interpret in the scummiest possible way. What kind of answer do you expect to this vote from sword of omens? DBK already explained his hammer, no? What makes his explanation unsatisfactory?

So yes, I feel Wisdom has had the ugliest role in the lynch, but I'm not exclusing misguided town who somehow ended up in a leading position. But mainly his pre-hammer conviction and his post-hammer indignation don't add up in my book. RachMarie I'm also not quite liking, she seems like the tourist in the Zionite wagon.
A general question to everyone: Do you think scum was involved in Zionite's lynch-wagon? Why/Why not?

Going to provide reads on everyone later on, maybe today, maybe Wednesday. Going to wait with my vote until then but

FoS: Wisdom

[Wisdom]

The hammer itself isn't what was scummy. I wanted the hammer to happen sooner or later because I genuinely believed Zionite was scum. The way it happened, with all the unneeded justification, as well as the timing, felt off to me. To me it looked like (And yes, this is interpretation, I am not supposed to be in the mind of others, all I can do is try to read into their actions) he was trying too hard to justify the hammer so that he doesn't look bad for doing it. Scum will usually do that when they're about to hammer town exactly because the hammered will flip town and they will look bad.

Maybe you would have changed nothing in the result, but I generally prefer waiting for everyone to chime in before taking the final decision. Maybe someone will notice something the others didn't. You never know.

In regards to sword, all I'll tell you is that I've played with him before and I'd like to read him to be more sure about the slot. I am not in any way convinced that DBK is scum, I just did not like that hammer and it's one of the strongest leads I have right now.

My aggressiveness and my attempts to make the town follow me in my reads are null tells and have to do more with playstyle than alignment. I think you said you read some of my games, so maybe you can confirm that.

As for my pick and tell and whatever else has to do with my Zionite hunt; simply put, I was confident Zionite was scum. Maybe too confident.

[Wisdom]

pick and choose*

[RachMarie]

Mala there was not a lot going on here...

BTW

Wis you are pushing Sword? Did he replace DBK?

[Wisdom]

yup

[Wisdom]

Mala there was not a lot going on here...

Not a reason to avoid posting, unless you're scum.

[Grimgroove]

My town reading of DBK has gone down somewhat with that hammer...


Zio on the other hand..... bah I think he is scumz. I was going to declare intent to hammer (something DBK SHOULD have done )

RachMArie, according to you, what would the added value have been of "intent to hammer" over the hammer itself? Zionite already claimed. Why this fuss?

[RachMarie]

Intent to hammer is not just about claiming.

It gives the lynchee a chance to have final thoughts reads and any other info just in case it ends up being a mislynch.

It gives other players a chance to post their final thoughts and any other info they feel town should know before the day ends.

It allows for other players to say hey wait a minute it is too soon to end the day etc.

So having intent to hammer helps town in many ways not just the claim. Which is why it is best to declare intent whether or not the lynchee has claimed.

That being said I am not liking how sword is not saying much here. plus that hammer uggh


VOTE: sword


you have some 'splainin to do dude...

[Wisdom]

I am not liking how sword is not saying much here.

Like everyone else does?
Miss D does?
Horus does?
All you have is that sword is not saying much?

[Wisdom]

Coming from you that you didn't bother to post because "there was not much going on"?

[RachMarie]

well maybe this will get the game moving I doubt one vote on him is going to stir him much Wis

And I still wanna know what the heck was up with that hammer.

@ Grim Was I absolutely sure Zio was scum, no but I did think he was likely to be scum. I am not sure of anyone else in this game.

Wis I admit most peeps in this game have been lacking in activity. But my activity has been sporadic all over due to my not having a computer and sharing one with NS. Being exhausted trying to function without a hearing aid also does not help. If there is some RL stuffs going on, sword should tell us. This does not feel like his usual play from games we were in before.

[Wisdom]

And I still wanna know what the heck was up with that hammer.

And how exactly will you know that?

[Wisdom]

Wis I admit most peeps in this game have been lacking in activity. But my activity has been sporadic all over due to my not having a computer and sharing one with NS. Being exhausted trying to function without a hearing aid also does not help.

Why are you apologizing about your activity?
You admitted that you didn't post because "there was nothing going on", not because of RL.
Did I just catch you in a lie?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RachMarie

[RachMarie]

no both are true

Overall my activity on the computer (everywhere not just on site) is sporadic.... And I did not see much going on when I took the few minutes I had to look here there were no new posts to speak of. Particularly from the peeps I need to hear from to help me narrow down the pool.

Which would be :
Sword,
Miss D,
and Horus.

You have as usual spoken quite a bit, Mala has spoken and even Grim has but there is so little from several people it is making it hard for me to peg them.

[fuzzybutternut]

Mod: Dead man posting

[Wisdom]

fuzzy youre dead lol

[Wisdom]

there were no new posts to speak of.

And why did you need new posts to speak of instead of making some yourself?